@Teri_Kanefield I think, politically, it is not a winner, other than to further cause amongst facists. Trump can be painted as trying to take rights that he doesn't have, like the right to steal classified documents and the right to release confidential grand jury information. The country is sick of it. Only violence lets him succeed.
@Teri_Kanefield Looks like the prosecution will be referring back to paragraph 3. throughout the trial to remind the jury that it isn't Trump's words, but his actions that are illegal.
@Teri_Kanefield Teri, how does a judge determine whether a defendant’s speech crosses the line into intimidation? IIRC, in addition to not disseminating confidential info, talking to witnesses, and committing more crimes, the judge instructed him to refrain influencing jurors, or threatening, bribing, or retaliating against anyone connected to the case…
> I believe that the "legal strategy" right now is to try to turn this into a case about freedom of speech.
I completely disagree. The pseudo-strategy is to fling spaghetti far and wide, just to see what happens. Worst case, it's FUD. But, who knows? Some might stick.
@Teri_Kanefield
So maybe the DOJ didn't "sidestep" Trump's desire to turn this into a !st Amendment case after all? This appears to be yet another instance of centrists leaning over backwards to avoid "provoking" the right into doing what they were going to do anyway.
@Teri_Kanefield thanks Teri. I’m not a lawyer but I see it the same way. And you are right he has not been given the evidence that if improperly handled could land him in hot water. Hope folks don’t keep taking the bait and miss the forest before the trees. My posts are not artful late at night but you addressed my concerns. Have a good day.
@Teri_Kanefield you are so much more calm and collected than I am. when I start to feel rage and want trump locked up in a bunker 100 miles below the ground, I must come back to your timeline to regain perspective.
@Teri_Kanefield This was the strategy used by convicted former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich who had his own talk show Sunday mornings on WLS AM 890 while waiting for trial. What we learned then was the prosecution wasn't prosecuting crimes he admitted doing on wiretaps but on evidence which proved he took steps to further what he had planned. Those were complicated trials but they eventually convicted him to Federal prison.
@Teri_Kanefield I do feel it is necessary to clarify that it's less "smart" and more just that he has a natural instinct for these things (which is not uncommon for malignant narcissists and conmen.) He knows how to play people, but not because he does a deep psychological analysis of the human brain but just because he had a natural tendency to do this stuff to people until he developed the ability to make it work.
Thing is, when he posted his recent threat against anyone 'coming after him' on 'truth' social, he didn't just make a stochastic wolf call -- he directly threatened a federal judge, the prosecution and any witnesses against him, and potentially anyone acting in the line of their civic duty conducting the proceedings. He incidentally and directly violated a court mandate that provided condition for his release from custody.
I get a lot of messages and interact with a lot of people. Since you messaged me directly, as opposed tonreplying in a conversational thread, I have no way of identifying what you’re talking about.
I am not coming to your blog. This where I comment and express my views unprompted. If you want to read me here, find me here, as you have to this day.
@KI5SMN@Teri_Kanefield The evidence against him needs to be the center of conversation. That evidence exists. We cannot validate his 1A bullshit strategy. Speak of evidence; cite the evidence.
The first amendment dies not give the sonofabitch in question the right to threaten a federal judge and the witnesses against him any more than that it does you or I.
Icing on the cake the federal judge in question explicitly directed him not to do specifically anything resembling this.
One people, one law!
Put the bastard in the jail, and if stupid people do stupid shit, respond accordingly.
I’m tired of being held hostage by these rat bastards.
At least in the Smith indictment there's nothing about speech qua speech. On page two of the indictment it admits TFG had the right to even lie about the election. Instead the indictment is about the extensive conspiracy to overturn the election, prevent the government to function, and deprive people of their right to vote.
So that's what @Teri_Kanefield is talking about. 1A arguments are a distraction.
@Teri_Kanefield All of this is correct, but it's worth mentioning (if only in passing) that on anything that is, actually, on point with free speech, he's going to win, so don't challenge him on that, or even address it.
I also wouldn't be surprised if he himself thinks that if it can be framed as a free speech issue the SCOTUS would be on his side (true, but even the extreme members there can't and won't frame this as a free speech thing).
@Teri_Kanefield
That makes me ask the following question. It's a legit question, not based on sarcasm. Do you think Dems are doing enough to counter this constant assault from Trump and his attorneys? Is "no comment, and let's let Trump legally hang himself' enough of a strategy? Again, I'm not asking to be sarcastic. I"m wondering if there is another way for Dems to take control of the narrative
@dancinyogi@Teri_Kanefield my own take is that they are too calculating and afraid to take any risks whereas the gop are fine with being a bull in a China shop, which makes things more interesting and ends up giving them more media attention. Dems need to be more outspoken and get on media outlets to counter the narrative and not let Trump and Co dominate the narrative
@dancinyogi@Teri_Kanefield
We definitely cannot rely on the American judicial system (“the courts”) to “stop Trump.” If the House Select Committee hadn’t collected all the January 6 evidence I believe the DOJ would still not have charged Trump. Instead, Democrats need to be loudly, constantly explaining, teaching, organizing the country about the ongoing attempt to take down democracy and institute an authoritarian system.
@dancinyogi@Teri_Kanefield "Jack Smith held back from charging Trump with attempted insurrection"- which would have effectively prevented him from ever holding office.
" The indictments haven't cost Trump any core support, and haven't boosted the embarrassing, corporate, imperialist Biden's well - deserved low approval numbers one bit."
(counterpunch.org /the system is working?)
Clearly, the Democratic playbook :
Biden just had to run on " I'm not Trump."
How well did that work out for Hillary?
@Teri_Kanefield “If you picked up the newspaper once each day, or twice each day, this ploy would not work.”
Aside: one of the best things I ever did for my mental health was to stop consuming the news every day and instead follow experts (like you) who stick to the facts. I’m done with the rage.
@Teri_Kanefield: So does that make the key to keep the evidence / indictment in front of people to counter it? There is no First Amendment issue here, it's right there in the indictment. He's not being tried over what he said. He's being tried over what he did. Not the same thing.
@Teri_Kanefield Fox News isn't a newspaper ppl pick up once or twice a day. Exact same thing works with cable news 💩 and ppl glued to it all day, without social media, but without social media there's no channel in the other direction to point that out.
If you substitute "dog treat" for "shiny thing" and "family dog" for "everyone", then it should be crystal clear--at least to dog owners--what Trump is doing. He tosses out treats and people run and gobble them up.
Doesn't say much for our collective intelligence, but I'll leave that stone unturned. Just remember, Trump can--up to a point--say anything he likes. How we respond, or if we even bother to respond, is under our control. If ignored, he'd wither.
@Teri_Kanefield
Exactly. We'll be seeing lots of parsing of "What IS political speech? What is a threat?" #Trump is working the PUBLIC, to play victim using his definitions.
@spocko Let him question it all he wants to when he is in a holding cell. His legal team either comes up with a blockbuster response for the judge by 5 PM Monday, or a bench warrant may be issued for Donald then.
@Teri_Kanefield I don't think this is social media's characteristic but rather corporate media's. All we can do on social media is share the info provided by them, they're the ones who love shiny things
@Teri_Kanefield
As long as it means they all go down with him, I'm ok with that. As it stands right now, the ONLY republicans I don't want in prison are ex-republicans.
@Teri_Kanefield: Maybe not stupid, but it will be interesting to see when and how he steps over the line and does something criminal that brings further restrictions such as relinquishing his passport, confinement, fines, etc., or spawns entirely new indictments on top of the ones he's already under.
He's pretty good at making threats that his supporters react to but give him "plausible deniability" that he wasn't making a direct threat even when he was. He's got that mob boss thing down, but he's also really pissing off the government which will bite him at trial. It'll be interesting to see how the rulings go when there could be leniency but doesn't have to be, he's pretty much quashed any favor there.
@Teri_Kanefield In this way he will continue to rant away, untouchable, ramping up to unbearable levels for the next 15 months. "Free Speech" is his stay out of jail rally cry.
@Teri_Kanefield
I do feel like his voice less powerful now from over on truth social. Most people just don’t want to be there, so the rage is not reaching the people that engage with it very well. And the influence of twitter as an rage machine is also waning.
How effective do you judge it to be compared to when he was president?
@Teri_Kanefield
So the best course of action is for everyone to ignore him?
Don't amplyfy his messaging.
Don't respond to his taunts.
Just let the courts do their thing. DOJ doesn't need us pointing out what he says, they are watching him.
Bonus, ignoring him will most likely piss him off.
It's a shame the media won't do any of that.
@Teri_Kanefield it’s crazy how quickly people fall into his trap. He’s not good at many things, but he can control the narrative like nobody else. I agree with your assessment on what he’s trying to do - it’s so important people read the indictment. Legal Eagle did a great vid on the indictment on YouTube as well
This proves @Teri_Kanefield's point: Trump is being coached to say "freedom of speech."
His cognitive impairment is so severe, and his behavior so rigidly stereotyped, that his motivation is always transparent. He's trying to put on a display of power, but he's such a simpleminded buffoon, he can't come up with anything more specific than "very powerful grounds."
@Teri_Kanefield
What I keep pointing out is, there isn't really a way to make this a first amendment case because that's already been settled: you can't shout fire in a crowded theater. If the election was indeed stolen and democracy had been overthrown, that would be reasonable grounds to overthrow the government, and I think that can very easily be argued even... But him saying that without any evidence, driving people to violence with a false claim, is not protected speech.
...looking it up, I'm not sure what you mean: it seems like it isn't protected speech. If someone says something false, creating a panic in which a real harm is done, they can be charged with causing that harm. Trump is being charged with causing that harm, on top of actively trying to commit the very crime he was talking about.
@Teri_Kanefield I suspect he’s violating his terms of release because he WANTS to be locked up. Then he has a plausible excuse for losing the general election in ‘24. “Whaaaah! They locked me up! I’m a political prisoner. Whaaaahhh!”
@Teri_Kanefield I think trump has leverage with his co-conspirators and witnesses because he can dangle pardons. He has more of this power if his political position looks realistic. So focusing on his political needs improves his position as criminal defendant.
@Teri_Kanefield Hi Teri, when you get a chance, could you offer your take on John Eastman's admission that "Hell Yes We Were Trying to Overthrow the Government"
@Teri_Kanefield Being " two-bit bullying thug" should disqualify him, sadly it doesn't however it touches on s.th. I find concerning — the willingness to accept an absolutism of free speech after the oath of office.
The oath is a promise in the affirmative before witnesses: defend the constitution — so anything that harms the constitution — like having rights, the right to have one's vote count — is outside what an oath bearer can do. Trump went too far. Yes, he could lie but not limitless.
@Teri_Kanefield Unregulated free speech itself is a threat to democracy:
"The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually ceased or destroyed by the intolerant. " https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Hopefully trump’s recharacterization of his Jan 6 fraud charges as free speech will not succeed with the larger public, but countervailing (& more accurate) on the actual charges don’t seem to be gaining traction.
This ominously reminds me of the Mueller report being “no collusioned” into oblivion.
I imagine you have little sympathy for prosecutors in general, but don’t you feel a little sorry for them that they can’t speak out on all the Sunday shows?
@Teri_Kanefield 100% spot on the media took the bait in 2016 when he said unhinged and ridiculous things and people forgot what really mattered which was Hillary's warnings. If people listened to her none of this would be happening. Also Jack Smith is smart for not charging with him with insurrection I know it will be disappointing to many but this is the right move for a conviction. Want Trump out of power then get off the couch and make sure democrats win in 2024 and beyond. If we fail then the 250 year experiment ends
Trump is going to force the court to PROVE this is not about First Amendment. Trump is participating in this First Amendment argument which is his right to do. HOWEVER, while he is crowing over his rights, IF he continues to break the rules set up by this court, IF the court does NOT stop him cold it will appear as if the court is in agreeance with him. Trump can force the judge to stop him and HOPE it will look like his First Amendment rights have been broken but it will only force the court to spell out WHY this has nothing to do with 1A. Then that argument will be over and they will think up some other nonsense to try and win.
They WILL continue to attempt to WIN.
This is what they have left to do. We will all watch every single little antic they attempt to pull. We will all point out these antics as being false and wait for the Judge to rule. The Judge will continue to rule against Trump BECAUSE HE IS WRONG AND A CRIMINAL.
So out of everything I said, you wanted to make sure the world knows that when I said the court proves -that in actuality it is the process of the court to prove something?
The phone conversation with the Georgia Secretary of State seemed very clear to me. That was not about First Amendment rights. He painted himself nicely into a corner...
From here on, he will be doing a lot of squeaking, wining, insulting and false accusations.
The problem I see is, if he was to win this argument then it will send a clear message that intimidation of people involved in prosecting crime, winnesses and victims is perfectly legal. The long term implications of that sort of thing could be massive, and world wide as others will try it in other countries.
@Teri_Kanefield I'm not going to say lock him up, but I will not accept that there is justice (anyway) until he's locked up for committing treason, insurrection and incitement to that, (involuntary?) manslaughter as a consequence of his incitement, throw the law books at him for harming blue lives and show me a conviction.
The fact that he is neither detained nor without his pasport at this point is proof that he is getting preferential treatment from the DOJ. Not equal: favorable.
The will be fascinating to see how this is going to play out.
@Teri_Kanefield: Smith was smart to keep this away from First Amendment tests or we'd have a pretty ugly ACLU battle (remember Skokie). But as you've said multiple times, the DOJ has its A-Team on the Trump investigations/trials, and they know exactly what they are doing.
I got a chuckle out of Trump's rant about recusal though. That's rich coming from him in the face of the rogue SCOTUS majority's ethics violations and Cannon's theatrics over the Special Master nonsense.
I will be curious to see exactly how he actually steps over the line. After all, this is the guy who lost his defamation case and then immediately defamed the same person again only to get sued again.
The man really doesn't get that being a criminal defendant is not the same as a being a party in a civil suit, and the penalties for continuing to commit criminal offenses are much steeper especially when he's been warned repeatedly and explicitly about what he cannot do.
The real tragedy is that his supporters eat it up.
@Teri_Kanefield I appreciate your calm-headed legal analysis so much. It is wonderful to see Mr. Smith and the Judge not rise to Trump’s level of chaos and histrionics. They just simply, coolly, and quietly apply the law to “Mr. Trump”.
@Teri_Kanefield I saw elsewhere the point being made that trump basically backed down in his response to the DOJ suit, which is a new thing for him, and his latest salvo vs Pence is firmly on the 'repeating what other people said' couched terms and innuendo. It seems too coded to be even a cultee dogwhistle.
I actually do think he's suddenly acting timid/afraid. I doubt it sticks, but it's interesting.
@Teri_Kanefield
He and his lawyers refuse to acknowledge that he’s being prosecuted for what he did, not what he said. Even if that weren’t true, there is no absolute right to free speech. Otherwise crimes like inciting a riot and libel wouldn't be crimes.
@Teri_Kanefield@JStatePost For whatever it's worth, I suspect the DOJ won't have to wait very long for him to blurt out something explicitly illegal or in direct violation of court order...
Flabbergasted that people don't ignore him. Why let yourself be outraged by his shitposts? Having both sides crying to lock each other's side up is playing directly into their hands.
@Teri_Kanefield@JStatePost I can be patient because eventually he WILL go too far. The DOJ and the judge are giving him just enough rope to hang himself with, so as far as I’m concerned, I think we’ll see him in orange a lot sooner than we expected, which makes me smile. But I agree, what he’s posted so far toes the line of illegality without quite stepping over. The judge will warn him once or twice, but he’ll keep pushing his luck until it runs out, and he’ll be in pre-trial detention. And the reason why I think he’ll end up jailed is that he has continued to defame E Jean Carroll despite the legal and financial consequences. The man doesn’t know when to shut up. The man will be jailed when it is obvious that he has committed a crime (witness tampering and intimidation) rendering the first amendment question moot.
@VestigialLung@Teri_Kanefield@JStatePost Trump thinks he’s baiting the DOJ; I think in actuality he’s the one being baited. He’s not the predator right now — he’s the prey. Just a matter of time before he demands that someone actually shoot a specific guy on 5th Ave…and then he’s in a giant heap of trouble.
@mjf_pro@Teri_Kanefield@JStatePost probably, yeah, given how thoroughly he’s torpedoed every defense he could possibly raise in the classified documents case by popping off at the mouth, if I’m the prosecution, I’m happy to sit back and let him talk all he wants as long as he doesn’t let that rise to witness tampering. He’s getting dangerously close to that threshold (I’d argue over, but I’m #NotALawyer )
@VestigialLung@Teri_Kanefield@JStatePost The thing to remember: Jack Smith successfully prosecuted war criminals. At The Hague. That’s who the DOJ has running this show. Trump’s got My Cousin Vinny trying to goat-wrestle facts that are overwhelmingly against him.
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