Not the biggest fan of HRW these days but even they know Houthis are attacking civilian ships along with commercial vessels.
Biden can only do so much. But all of our NATO allies transport goods through the lanes. Using our military to stop them is not "expanding the conflict." It is stopping terrorists from killing innocent sailors and civilians and from disrupting the world economy.
@TonyStark To be clear: Putin's ally Iran's Houthi proxies' terrorist Red-Sea attacks are making products for each one of us in the free world more expensive - serving the Kremlin & the stubborn enemies of a possible Middle East peace process.
The US (and many other countries, by the way) had to take this action as disruption to the Red Sea will seriously injure the economy and spike inflation. We can’t just think of ourselves. Supply chain disruption issues would hurt a lot of people.
@TonyStark@ArenaCops
What the loonies on the left that are criticizing Biden over the air strikes on drone factories seem unwilling to accept is that he tried to talk them out of the harm they were causing to poor nations.
He waited so long that he was getting criticized for it.
Sometimes, after everything else fails, in order to help people you've got to take military actions. That's just the way it is and its always been.
Hopefully someday it won't be, but wishing won't make it happen.
@steviesyerda@ArenaCops@GreenFire Hardly anyone on this platform is dumber and more irritating than Scottish people telling us what to do. Fix your own problems, which are numerous, and fuck off.
@TonyStark@steviesyerda@GreenFire Yeah! Stunning how eager every National(ist) Socialist is to see the state of Israel bombed & destroyed, the home established as a refuge for survivors of the Holocaust & those seeking safety from future threats of mass murder & pogroms on Jews.
Israel has a right to exist, Hamas are terrorists, the attacks on October 7th were horrific but does this then justify 24,000 deaths and levelling Palestine? Surely we value all human life
@steviesyerda@ArenaCops@TonyStark
None of us support what Bibi is doing, but Biden nor us can control him so attacking Democrats now is just helping to put Putin's GOP back in charge of the USA.
I hope people know what they are going to get if they don't support Biden and Democrats in general that's all I'm saying.
@GreenFire@ArenaCops@TonyStark
FFS I support Biden against the GOP, from Scotland yes. But can we not just note that acting to defend and support shipping lanes while not acting to support dying people might look somewhat bad for the voting public and indeed rational human beings everywhere.
Here's SOS Blinken's statement in Egypt this week:
"First, preventing the conflict from spreading; second, getting more humanitarian assistance in to people who need it; three, increasing protection for civilians; four, getting hostages out; and finally, continuing to support Israel in its efforts to make sure that October 7th can never happen again, and so that this conflict can end. "
are there 24,000 dead people in Gaza since October? Yupp
are there frequent amputations for children who receive no anaesthetic, yupp
are refugee camps, hospitals, apartments, academics, poets, reports, medics....targets? Yupp
Is the US supplying weapons and money to Israel? Yes, in fact it's giving MORE while international law is broken before our eyes. Can we just argue that human lives are important regardless of who they are?
wait, and I didn't disagree with that, or that the Houthi's are allied with Iran, or that they are attacking shipping. What I did point out is that backing Israel unconditionally while attacking others is a huge problem, and I also argue that thje west have a moral and humanitarian obligation to support Palestinians and condemn war criminality.
I don't think you're willing to accept that the west's unconditional support for Israel is a problem.
I do know about Blinken and the pressure he's been trying to put on Israel and others in the region. I also know that support for Israel was raised massively and doesn't falter at a time when we can both see war crimes taking place. And then we see bombs falling in the region but not where the war crimes are taking place. 9
Bombing Yemen, funding Israel and having stern talks is reasonable in the face of the horrors in Gaza? I'm arguing it's not.
because I've already said that in acting against the Houthi's there's
a) a high risk escalation
b) a further perception that the west will support Israel by military means even in the face of human rights offences and war crimes
I don't support the Houthi's action, I question why the US and UK can defend shipping against terrorism but fail to protect people against criminality
sadly that is the #InconvenientTruth, because even if we point out that #Netanyahu wanted #O7 to happen, that still requires #Hamas to be the aggressor - which they have been like the #UsefulIdiots they are at best.
Right, it's not like Netanyahu could just use the Jewish Space Laser to activate the Covid vaccine mind control nanobots to force Hamas to commit a massacre.
@TruthSandwich@kkarhan@steviesyerda@rameshgupta@ArenaCops@TonyStark
I'm at the point of just pointing out that I tried to warn Americans in November, 2016 that was our generation's Pearl Harbor. #J6 should have been plenty kinetic enough to have finally wakened them up to the threat from the cancer of authoritarianism yet here we are with CSpan broadcasting the insurrectionist's rallies.
We're at war. We have to unite like the Ukrainians did to support our democracies!
@ArenaCops@TonyStark@steviesyerda
What bugs me the most about the far-left attacks on Joe Biden is that they're ignoring that he turned around U.S. policy 180 degrees towards supporting the two-state solution.
It's been well-known for a long time that he is not a supporter of the Likud Party, but as POTUS he has to support our allies. What do they want for us to violate our treaties now?
Plus, they're ignoring Netanyahu 'sand Putin's relationship including Israel spying for the GOP on DNC.
@GreenFire@TonyStark Sure! The shipping route through the Red Sea & the Suez Canal is a key trade waterway connecting Asia & Europe, saving time & money over the much longer route around the southern tip of Africa.
And of course Russia & Iran are using their militant Houthi (or other) proxies to inflict as much harm on western economies & societies as possible, disrupting supply chains & making products more expensive.
@ArenaCops@TonyStark
And of course Putin and his allies have used their online influencers to gaslight a large contingent of naive leftists to take the side of the terrorists sadly.
@TonyStark@GreenFire@ArenaCops@72mz Indeed!
It's exactly the same: deliberate propagandists seeding the ideas, a slew of useful idiots amplifying it. All with the goal of furthering the authoritarian takeover of the West.
The only real diff, I think, is that the right wing useful idiots are caught in the lies because of their own bigotry. While most of the "leftists" are just foolish and following the crowd without the same load of internal bigotry.
So, there's some hope for the "leftists"...
@ArenaCops@GreenFire@colo_lee@72mz I agree entirely if we can get through the 2024 elections without the authoritarians taking over and those people in large take a good look at what they’re doing.
I talk to a lot of voters and potential voters in person. It’s easier to get a Republican to listen than a far left person right now.
Most of the US is more in the center and constantly demonizing the center isn’t a good plan for the left.
@colo_lee@ArenaCops@72mz@GreenFire People all around also need to not play loose or essentially lie about the facts. It’s wrong when the right does it. It’s also wrong when the left does it and that part is particularly irresponsible.
Not that anyone in this tag is making excuses for that. Nobody is. I’m just really annoyed today reading some of my other replies.
@TonyStark@ArenaCops@colo_lee@72mz
We've got to get Ranked Choice Voting out to more Americans fast so that the far leftists can start to feel free to vote for their candidates of choice instead of voting against the lesser evil.
I happened to catch this speech from Representative Raskin that had this segment on the transitive property of two-party political landscapes.
It comes from a lecture he gave to Dartmouth students this month.
@TonyStark@GreenFire@72mz@ArenaCops I really want to see RCV start small and then grow. I think there will be less resistance nationally after people see it working locally.
Here in Boulder County, the city of Boulder used it in the last municipal elections. And that was a good thing. Now we need to apply it county and state wide.
@colo_lee@TonyStark@72mz@ArenaCops
We've brought RCV to over twelve million Americans and will probably double that annually until we've got to everyone we can i reckon.
@colo_lee@72mz@GreenFire@ArenaCops It really needs a lot of involvement and investment on the ground level, too, but it’s hard to find the time when say as in my state, we have to spend all or most of our time this year making sure Biden is reelected along with my Dem US Senator and all of our representatives, etc., which is unfortunately not a given. Really kinda sucks.
@TonyStark@colo_lee@72mz@ArenaCops
Exactly, that's one of the worst damn things about us Democrats having enemies on both the right and the left. We're just fighting for survival rather than working on the policies we'd rather be damnit!
@GreenFire@TonyStark@72mz@ArenaCops Since 3rd party representation is something a lot of "progressives" claim to care about, I'd love to see them focus on getting RCV implemented at state and local levels. I'd be happy to support that and it would keep them from doing as much damage at the national levels.
Of course, as the "green" party and Stein, West, RFK Jr, Williamson, etc. have shown us, the grifting is much better nationally. And there's no expectation there of winning ...
@ncoca@GreenFire@TonyStark@72mz@ArenaCops Right, just like Boulder CO that I mentioned above. Now people need to work to get it applied in more locales as well as at state level. That's good and important work!
@maggiejk Working in a system to actually get things done isn’t sucking up. Until we give Dems control in Congress they all have to find any way to work with the GOP when they can to at least gets some progress. They can’t all be Bernie screaming and waggling a finger and passing almost no bills. @sydpolk@TonyStark@colo_lee@ncoca@GreenFire@72mz@ArenaCops
@colo_lee@GreenFire@TonyStark@72mz@ArenaCops#RCV would let me vote my heart and my mind.
It would also end third parties' power to be spoilers, leaving them nothing but also-rans, maybe not a net gain for their adherents.
My hope for #RCV is that it would increase 3rd party clout without spoiling outcomes. A Democratic candidate who can see her victory resulted from being the 2nd choice of a big bloc of Greens might actually govern accordingly.
50+ years ago I voted 3rd party (yes I’m that freaking old.) It changed nothing, never will, RCV will not change that on a wide scale. Never.
Choosing democracy vs some alternative is not a lesser evil, never will be. All the alternatives will simply insure the alternative (do not at me, it’s the truth.)
I assume you meant “start to feel free to vote for their candidates of choice instead of voting [for] the lesser evil.”
@GreenFire@colo_lee@ArenaCops@RedStateExile@72mz I already said this today but intent from a stranger on social media is impossible to discern. You need to actually write understandable words.
Don’t @ me while @‘ing people is bizarre. Now I’m going to block you and I won’t see any more.
I'm not convinced that RCV is any sort of improvement. On the one hand, it lets the extremists cast their protest votes harmlessly. But those votes are harmless because the nonextremist candidates win, which leaves the extremists unsatisfied with elections.
They're hoping RCV means that unpopular fringe candidates can win, and when that turns out not to be the case, they'll either stop voting, or will abuse RCV strategically.
@ArenaCops@GreenFire@72mz@TruthSandwich@colo_lee That could be, but it’s worked fairly well where it’s been utilized and it seems to eliminate the extremists, which I’m a fan of all around. Don’t like the right ones. Used to try to deal with the left ones but I’m done now. It seems to raise turnout, which I’m into. You’re probably right, though, regarding the left and their fringe.
That's why it's so ironic that RCV is being pushed by extremists who are convinced that everyone who votes for liberals secretly wants to vote for the fringe left but is being forced by FPtP math to stick to moderates. Populists believe that they truly represent the people, so there is a silenced majority behind them.
That's their belief, and it's false. So when RCV doesn't yield extremist victories, they're going to double down on refusing to vote for moderates.
@ArenaCops@colo_lee@TruthSandwich@72mz@GreenFire It’s a really good point. As I’ve pointed out many times, there isn’t a huge group of far leftists just sitting around not voting. If there were, we’d have some very different results. The US is fairly moderate. I still like RCV and have been pleased with the results I’ve seen, but I don’t mind other opinions at all when they’re presented rationally.
Well, their belief is that these far-left ideas are secretly popular. So secretly that people don't even know that they're leftists, and need to be told!
A lot of this is expressed in jargon about the "(white!) working class" and how it's being "tricked" into overlooking its economic interests by racism. This misses the point, which is that the racism not just a consequence, it's a cause in itself.
You can't just tell people that they'll make more money if they stop being racist. They don't care. They're racist so they want to hurt their enemy more than they want to help themselves.
As a result, the populist left imagines that it could conquer the center by entering into a red/brown alliance with the populist right. History has shown us how this turns out.
@TonyStark@ArenaCops@colo_lee@TruthSandwich@72mz
My main hope is that changing to RCV will increase voter turnout. I'm more comfortable living in a democracy with higher turnout than we've had in the USA in too long.
I'm democratic, so I trust the voters to choose my country's governance, but I trust them more when a higher proportion of the population votes.
Like the stats 101 story about the average of everyone's guess of the steer's weight nailed it.
Right, so this is just going to get their hopes up and crush them some more. The result will be that they'll be jaded and hostile, just like before, only more so.
Consider how Bernie got their hopes up for a glorious revolution (tm) but when it didn't happen, they blamed liberals for "rigging" the election against him by (checks notes) voting?!
@colo_lee@ArenaCops@72mz@Pineywoozle@GreenFire@TruthSandwich Charles Gaba created a donation account to support people trying to primary many of them out. I haven’t seen anything like that before. Others are also tired of it now, in particular the lying. It’s just not acceptable.
I'm not a politician, so for me, this comes down to distinguishing between people I can support -- fellow liberals -- and those nuts who are running for Democratic nominations but aren't Democrats.
But, like I said, I'm not a politician. I never spent my days compromising with Republican assholes to get anything done, so I don't have the temperament or skills for that sort of thing.
Biden does, as do many experienced Democratic politicians. Instead of shunning the far left, as I might, they're using them.
I don't want to make it sound more sinister than it really is, but the liberals want to "corrupt" the socialists by getting them to compromise on their extremist principles to help liberals get their job done.
That's why you can see blowback against far-left darlings like BS and AOC from edgelords who now see their former heroes as impure.
But yeah, as I’ve said to others, being a leftist is like walking on a glass bridge. And as soon as you make one “mistake”, the other leftists push you off and laugh as you fall.
AOC will be an old establishment Dem to many of them very soon.
@TonyStark That laughter from the very fringe of the #farL about such sad, serious things that affect the lives, and deaths of so many people is one of the key things that lets me know I’m not dealing with someone I can communicate with. There is a selfish brittleness to it. Thankfully they really are a small percentage of the progressive left. @GreenFire@72mz@TruthSandwich@ArenaCops@colo_lee
@Pineywoozle I have an interesting story about that very thing from an inauguration I attended last week that I’ll share after I get some work done today.
@Pineywoozle@GreenFire So, I’ll tag Kevin in this, too. I went to the inauguration for a woman who got elected to our County Executive last week. It’s always been a Dem since the office was created. The first woman got elected in November. She’s a pragmatic progressive. The previous exec retired.
She ran on criminal justice reform, addressing education,equity, equality, reproductive rights, LGBTQ rights- these are all obviously progressive priorities…1/2
She made one statement in December against our local DSA issuing a statement that they supported resistance “by any means necessary” in the Middle East and a group of weird protesters show up.
No point to it. Extremely alienating. But the number of them at this huge, progressive moment could fit in an elementary school bathroom. Go figure.
@TonyStark I’m always glad it’s a small minority. My problem besides how tight our margins are is the huge amount of oxygen the MSM tends to give those voices as a way to suppress enthusiasm for Dem candidates as a whole.
@Pineywoozle I agree wholeheartedly, of course. There was a ton of misogyny coming from the right against this candidate and of course the usual scare tactics. She didn’t win by a huge margin and we really can’t afford stunts like this from whatever these folks think they are.
@TonyStark Yep, that’s always my take. Putin has been propagandizing the #farL for years now in order to damage the Dem vote. I just wish Prog leaders would step up to the plate & warm their followers. But, rabid followers = campaign money so they won’t. Bernie’s admitted it but only when pushed.
@TonyStark For sure as far as Putin & the MSM are concerned. Fingers toes and the neighbors cat crossed it doesn’t work. In 2016 we thought we had to coddle the fringe. In 2020 we told em to go fuck themselves cause that tiny fringe isn’t voting Dem regardless.
@Pineywoozle@TonyStark
I agree that for the most part the fringe left is relatively quite small, especially electorally.
And of course you're right about the rightwing media putting the crap they do on autoplay repeat over and over.
That's the biggest problem I have with them because without that shit we could have already absorbed the pro-choice wing of the Republican Party into supporting democracy and we wouldn't face such a threat this year here imo.
@Pineywoozle@GreenFire The other problem is that they have an outsized involvement in social media, which often ends up being an outsized negative influence on society. What ends up on social media and looks like a lot of people think that way isn’t at all representative of real people. See recent left attacks on John Fetterman and the fact that his approval with actual Pennsylvania voters has gone up in that same time frame, for example.
@GreenFire@Pineywoozle@TonyStark I wont claim that far-leftists and far-rightists are identical, but I assert that they are equally problematic. They share an equal level of intolerance, authoritarianism, radicalism, and violence. Although their methods may differ, their ultimate impact remains the same, with distinct goals but similar means.
@ArenaCops@MJ@TruthSandwich@GreenFire@72mz@colo_lee You have a history of attacking every single Democrat around as well as Black users on this platform. You’re a jerk who just likes to troll. No one has time for this. Jamie Raskin is a pretty good Dem. Fuck off.
So despite being a member of the Democratic Party and elected to the House as a Democrat and caucusing with the Democrats and voting with the Democrats and endorsing Joe Biden and serving in the Trump impeachment effort, Raskin isn’t a Democrat “at all”?
@TonyStark@GreenFire@colo_lee@72mz You're absolutely right & realistic again. If we want to take along as many of our fellow humans as possible, how logical & reasonable would it be to ignore the center of the nation's political views?
How fair would it be?
How beneficial to as many of our neighbors as possible would it be?
You don't win allies & majorities without willingness to reach mutual agreements, to accept others' needs.
@colo_lee@GreenFire@72mz@ArenaCops I can’t keep up with all my replies today so I apologize but yeah, it doesn’t make sense to attack people who agree with you on nearly everything but have a different approach on what to do about it at the moment and care about your needs. These are people you can bring along.
@TonyStark I’ve talked to thousands on both ends of the horseshoe, & the difference to me is that many on the far right truly are being manipulated by their racism & fear. Internally, they know their racism is ugly & they’re tired of being afraid. Make an appreciable dent in that & you have an opportunity for them to think clearly & kindly. The #farL on the other hand think they’re working for good. They’re true believers & man that’s a tough nut to crack. @ArenaCops@GreenFire@colo_lee@72mz
@72mz@colo_lee@ArenaCops@GreenFire@Pineywoozle They’re uncompromising as well, which isn’t how life works. No one lives like that. Government doesn’t work like that. They alienate people and then get angry at the people they alienate for being alienated. Not exactly progressive.
@TonyStark That’s the part that kills me. They spend so much time being mad at people who aren’t doing exactly what they want them to do instead of taking all that energy and fighting the people that are genuinely stopping progress. @72mz@colo_lee@ArenaCops@GreenFire
@TonyStark I’d also like to add this: President Biden doesn't need to talk to Congress about military strikes against pirates and non-governmental actors. That permission was given more than 200 years ago when President Jefferson asked for money to develop a Navy. Anyone saying otherwise is a fool or a clown or a liar.
@JamesRhodes@TonyStark People suddenly believe a formal declaration of war is required for the president to command military action when it's convenient to their position. These people don't care about what's actually true.
@TonyStark@Nazani@JamesRhodes
I think that it's time to start trying to make certain that everyone knows that Democrat Socialists are not actually Democrats.
I know that it won't work since we even get blamed for what the anarchists do, but yeah it's frustrating.
@GreenFire@Nazani@JamesRhodes I donated to some candidates trying to primary them out. I’m out of tolerance. I tried. If you can’t live in reality, you don’t belong in my government.
@GreenFire@JamesRhodes@Nazani You could read that either way- that they spend more time criticizing Biden than Republicans do or that they spend more time criticizing Biden than they spend criticizing Republicans- and you’d be pretty accurate.
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