Yet another question people are asking me: "How can I, a common person, help hasten the demise of #Meta through #ActivityPub?"
Again, I want to re-emphasize this. #Fediblock is not an all-purpose tool. It's useful as a hammer. But in this scenario, we don't just need a hammer. We need drills, pliers, saws, and blowtorches.
That said, we must protect communities that choose to defederate from Meta. Which means that if those servers don't want to receive messages from any Meta-owned services, we must not only be respectful of that, we should make damn sure that those servers are quarantined from Meta. So much of the success of fighting Meta will require safe spaces from Meta.
The next thing we need is lots and lots of nodes. Currently, we only have ~25,000 nodes on the Fediverse but we need more. Preferably, these nodes should be small, agile, and well-moderated. If you have the finances and/or skill to run a node, it's important that you do so. To compete with Meta, we need to build scale -- and the easiest way to build scale is by adding more nodes to the Fediverse.
What will also be key is lobby servers. These will be servers specifically set up for migrants from Meta-owned services to help onboard them towards the rest of the Fediverse. To run such a lobby server, they need to be welcoming, moderated well, and free of the elitists and gatekeepers that poison so much of the Fediverse currently.
How to get people from Meta to try out the rest of the Fediverse? We need people willing to be ambassadors on #P92 who are ready and willing to evangelize the rest of the Fediverse. Folks like @tchambers are very good at this on Twitter, and I have no doubt that we can do the same with P92. Except this time we'll have the benefit of federation already happening 😉
Now if there's one thing I've learned about the growth of the Fediverse it's that bad corporate decisions pay dividends. We've already experienced waves of migration from Tumblr, Twitter, and Reddit. And I have no doubt that it's only a matter of time before Meta makes another corporate mistake -- as they tend to do.
In which case, we need to strike fast. When another Cambridge Analytica happens, we need to remind everyone on Meta about the lobby servers that are on standby, and ready to take them on. Unlike previous migrations, let's not be unprepared for this. Let's be especially prepared since Meta plans to join the Fediverse.
Finally, we need more devs. Specifically, we need devs willing to build innovative server and client software that takes aim at Meta. And to do that, we need to support the devs that currently exist -- show evergreen devs pondering whether they should invest here that we, as a community, are appreciative of our current devs.
If you like #Mastodon, #Calckey, #Kbin, #Friendica, etc., it's important that you open up your hearts as well as your wallets and fund the next stage of Fediverse development.
This will take a lot of work. But if you want to fight Meta, challenge their dominance of social media, this is what must be done.
Personally, I'm hyped about the future of the Fediverse -- regardless of whether Meta eventually lives to tell the tale.
☝🏾 Encourage family & friends to embrace Threads
✌🏾 Interact with their Thread account with my #Misskey, #Mastodon & #Pixelfed accounts & build desire for the Fediverse proper platforms
🤟🏾 Help them migrate towards the greater Fediverse.
@darnell@atomicpoet@tchambers I would even argue that step three might not be necessary. If they are using Threads and interacting with others on the Fediverse and adding to the community, then let them be. The more the merrier.
@darnell@atomicpoet@tchambers hear me out… what if the open Fediverse were the ones to embrace [Meta-platform users], extend [the reach of knowledge and understanding federation], and extinguish [by helping people move their data away from corporations who exist to sell it for profit]?
@yuzu_drink@darnell@atomicpoet@tchambers so, invite your friends currently on Meta to join your Fedi instance? You don't need to federate with P92 for that, and even better you can do it even now that P92 isn't even open yet.
@oblomov@darnell@atomicpoet@tchambers oh, I am, and I’m certain others are going harder than me. The biggest push back I get is “but then how will I stay in touch with all my friends on Facebook/Instagram/etc.?”
With Meta smoothly transitioning users onto the Fediverse, that problem could easily take care of itself, because you no longer lose contact with friends who are reluctant to transition!
@yuzu_drink@darnell@atomicpoet@tchambers Meta is not smoothly transitioning people to the Fediverse. P92 is a separate platform. Instagram and Facebook will not be federated —unless you know something that we don't. So that problem will still remain even if you federate!
@damon@atomicpoet@tchambers@darnell@yuzu_drink it's still a separate platform. They won't be able to follow someone's Facebook or Instagram account from P92. Syncing the social graph across non-federated platforms only makes sense if the members of the graph use both platforms.
@oblomov@atomicpoet@tchambers@darnell@yuzu_drink That’s not fully relevant to the point you were making. P92 are users instagram accounts. So long as those same users sign in then anyone that wants to be in contact with their instagram friends will be in contact with them. Those users specific to Facebook obviously not. So, it does address them remaining in contact with their Instagram friends, as long as they sign into P92 and use it
That's «as long as they sign into P92 and use it», whch is a big if, and I'll add «as long as Meta doesn't mangle the federation on their side» which isn't even an “if”, it's a “when”.
@oblomov@damon@atomicpoet@tchambers@darnell I'm not sure how Meta could screw up the federation enough to cause problems to those outside their ecosystem; and if they effectively defederate with all outside servers, that would seem like defeating the point of working on an ActivityPub setup in the first place. They'd be back to just a walled garden.
Which is exactly the point for them: they have everything to gain from being a walled garden, and nothing (long-term) from federating, unless a significant portion of the users are on the outside. If P92 fails to gain traction they can just drop it, and if it succeeds it becomes the “reference”, allowing them to “obsolete” it (in the mindshare of the general public) by dropping it, thus making sure it never grows to being serious competition.
@yuzu_drink@darnell@atomicpoet@tchambers so... we need instances set up which are clearly named things like "moveHereFromFacebook.social" which states it WONT defederate with Meta
(hot tip, pick a better name than that, I'm just making clear the intent)
and then we tell our friends on fb "you should move here, you'll be able to talk to your friends on FB with noads or tracking".
ANd from there we ween them to "better" instances, as slowly there is no longer anyone on FB ;)
@atomicpoet@tchambers@darnell@yuzu_drink I think my point is that the name will be important.
We want them to invite them to places that "sound like they are kinda FB" (without violating IP, ooh, be careful with that one!! ;) ) to make it all less scary.
Specifically some of the funner names. Yes, we think its fun to have like catgirls.social, but maybe Grandma thinks thats not a real social network...
I have a very good friend. We were chilling and listening to music on YouTube. I got annoyed with the constant adverts and need the to keep searching for songs. I explained to him that he could use #NewPipe to solve these problems. He let me install fdroid and NewPipe. We made a playlist. I showed him how he could make it play in the background whilst he did other things. I evangelised about it and #FOSS in general. I asked him the other day if he was still using NewPipe: No, not at all.
Most people are scared of non commercial tech. NewPipe looks like the YouTube app. It has more and better functionality. It still won't be adopted by the vast majority of people because we have all been trained to treat devices like a mysterious black box that we have no control over. I don't see large number's of people migrating from P92 because friendly techies say, "look, here is the same service only better". It needs more, but I don't know what that is
@RobertoArchimboldi@leadegroot@atomicpoet@tchambers@yuzu_drink I have a big family, & I do not expect all of them to switch from the Zuckerverse to the #Fediverse. But it’s like finding a beach full of stranded starfishes. Can I save them all‽ No. But for the ones I do help, it makes a difference.
LIsa and Chris: I'd be very up to think of how our newly launched SpreadMastodon.org could function to onboard Meta users looking to do a #IThreadMigration or I suppose a #MetaMigration
@darnell
I view this as an inevitable part of the original migrations.
These companies assure us that we need them, and they will follow up wherever we go to continue telling us that.
If anyone wants to bridge to the Fedi I welcome it. Grow wide, find good practices, good tools.
This is a golden opportunity for us to right some internet wrongs. If they want to build doorways into their systems, let them.
I think the biggest concern is people are worried about the "Buy, compete, consume" of places like Facebook. I think that is absolutely a concern, if we don't provide a competing product.
For the majority of consumers the key features of any of these tools is flexibility/features/etc.
If #Instagram can convince hosting companies to install #Treads on their own servers, it will reduce #Facebook’s costs while maintaining control (devious I know).
We need to counter this by presenting #ActivityPub options to the world.
@darnell It's certainly a reasonable strategy, but from what we know, they'll be able to communicate with Insta folks from Threads but not from any of the pure-fediverse apps. If that's the case, what's so appealing that it'll outweigh that (and the hassle of setting up a new account and migrating) and bring them over?
@jdp23 I am not sure where you are getting your info from, as #Instagram employees via leaks for weeks have made it clear that #Threads will communicate with #Mastodon, as well as other #ActivityPub apps.
Virtually every leak I have read implies Threads will be able to communicate with the #Fediverse. But I guess we will find out this month when it launches (I wonder if it will launch this week‽ Or maybe today‽)
@darnell sorry, I must have given the wrong impression. The leaks all say Threads will be able to communicate with the Fediverse and Instagram, details TBD. But I haven't heard anybody say that the Fediverse will be able to communicate with people on Instagram (who aren't also on Threads).
@jdp23 From what I read, #Threads users will need an #Instagram account to login, but they will be able to communicate with the #Fediverse overall. I am not sure if they will be able to communicate with Instagram posts, but I would not be surprised if they could.
@darnell ah okay, that's where we have different expectations. I'd be extremely surprised if they allowed that. Ffrom a business perspective, what do they have to gain from it? And moderation standards here are one good reason not to. But right now who knows ... it's not even clear just what their "integration" with ActivtyPub will be. We shall see! And, thanks as always for the discussion.
@jdp23 I think they will tolerate me doing this, as I already pay for #Instagram. My account has been a target for hacking for years, so having access to human tech support is critical.
But #Threads may not be thrilled with other people doing it. 😂
@darnell Yeah, there certainly may be exceptions. From a moderation perspective I could maybe imagine them allowing users on a shortlist of vetted servers have some access (at least initially) ... I'm not sure what their incentive would be, but maybe something to do with interoperability mandates? Still it's really hard for to picture them letting single-users servers in -- in fact thinking about it, they might not even allow them access to Threads.
@jdp23 I think one of the reasons #Meta contacted #Fediverse admins was to see which instances #Threads should ban. Threads is going to be heavily moderated, & I would not doubt if they already have analyzed my solo instance.
@darnell Could be. If so it'd be pretty funny because the instances I know that have the best reputations for moderation are generally in the "defederate" camp and one admin who's talking with the has a reputation for ... let's just say "selective" moderation. hen again given the recent reports that #Instagram isn't not dealing with pedophilia rings maybe they just don't care. Time will tell!
In any case the Oliphant blocklists are public, so they could use those as a starting point.
@jdp23 Yeah, I believe #Instagram will visit each site on the list & verify if the deserved to be blocked. I actually went through one (super lengthy) ban list, & I only blocked 60% of them. Some were on the list for holding despicable political views, but nothing more.
This is an interesting point - last fall a friend that hopped over to here from twitter pointed out that it would be pretty easy for someone with money to spin up thousands of cloud servers and bots etc, and effectively end up forcing this place to move to an allowlist model.
Honestly wouldn't put it past Facebook to just go and do that themselves, tbh - create the conditions that require the outcome they want
Yep, it's only a matter of time until the vulnerabilities of the current model get exploited ... an allowlist model's problematic for a lot of reasons but with the current technology it's the only realistic alternative.
"So much of the success of fighting Meta will require safe spaces from Meta."
If, as you correctly point out, federating with Meta is dangerous to users, then any server federating with Meta is in breach of the very first requirement of the Mastodon Server Covenant.
@atomicpoet@tchambers I found out shortly after I posted this that you'd recently received a harmful message from someone (which is not at all ok btw, just in case it was anyone that follows me) so I'm gonna cut you some deserved slack here.
But the point I was making is one of the main points that people have been making this whole time: Facebook and Instagram have not and do not properly moderate their platforms. By federating with them, admins are creating unsafe spaces for their users, which effectively limits where many people can exist on this network even more than they already are.
I'm not OK with that.
It's not a purity test, it's just showing respect for people that are commonly targeted for abuse.
@smallpatatas@atomicpoet The purist position is that they should be preemptively mass fediblocked before making even any actions. A maximalist stance many of us view as self-defeating - esp when we have the tools without preemptively fediblocking to manage individual bad actors, and are in a stronger position to ban the whole effort instantly if we do so quickly - but as a last resort.
Tim, with all due respect, we already know who they are. We have two decades of history to go by.
Not only that, we have plenty of recent (like, within the last two weeks) reports of things such as the fact that they are the primary method of distribution of CSAM. Or that they just rolled back their covid misinfo policy. Happy to repost these links if you want.
If those two things don't warrant a block just by themselves, then what on earth are we even doing pretending to moderate?
... it's clear there are many users and admins who are looking at this with rational thought, and with an eye on preparation. That alone says volumes about the fediverse as a whole, but sadly I've already encountered the self-admitted bullies who won't discuss alternatives.
I'm older than dirt, so I've seen this play out before. As always, optics will rise above everything to color perceptions, so when/if meta plays dirty, what then?
@atomicpoet It's also generally worth (at least right now) baring in mind a lot of instances are still hugely over-scaled for the twitter migration which crippled a lot of us. In reality if big changes are happening in the world of social media this is at least the time for a lot of us to have them where we aren't likely to be panicking to build out new capacity and growing mod teams with 0 notice.
The fact we know there might be a surge in users (rather than the erratic twitter stuff) is nice
1/ while I agree with all this, I’m here for short form content. This is a blog post. I understand that Mastadon / Fediverse / ActivityPub seems flexible, but everything to everyone is surely a terrible way to do things as well. Focus is important.
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