stux, to random
@stux@mstdn.social avatar

I'm gonna try to clear up a few things

Meta is not gonna buy Mastodon or any server, this is based on absolutely nothing and untrue.

Yes, some of us indeed got contacted by Meta/Insta because they are working on a new social platform (this was in the news) and they are looking into joining the Fediverse (Mark Zuckerberg also told this in the recent podcast)

SO.

This contact was about a "heads-up" for a potential big platform to join the network and not for a "take over".

[1/2]

kkarhan,

@revolt3d @stux yeah but it's a difference if you support #Cops & #Snitches that'll rat out their users or if you consider such hostile actors as what they are: attempts of #EEE / #EmbraceExtendAndExtinguish!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

https://mstdn.social/@kkarhan/110567775622980369

tchambers, to Futurology

With the upcoming #meta #Project92 Fediverse service, there has been a, well, robust discussion of how to avoid threats looming. Those advocating mass-preemptive defederation make three cases for it.

➡️ To avoid data mining ...which Defederation does virtually zero to avoid any big tech entity scraping all the fedi public social graph today - Want proof?
see: https://is.gd/q8U2pv

The next argument is about poorly moderated P92 user posts and ad spam.
Which I'll discuss next.

🧵 1 of N

oceaniceternity,
@oceaniceternity@sakurajima.moe avatar

@tchambers @emc2 @davew You certainly have my attention.

Could you link an example of a significant (and failed) attempt at #EEE ?

tchambers, (edited )

To the argument that we should defederate to avoid #EEE: We cannot avoid Meta's embrace of the open ActivityPub standard.

Even if the entire existing Fedi pre-blocked them. IG has 1.6 BILLION users. in one day just on their own they will be the size of the current Fedi's MAU and grow from there.

Instantly the biggest ActivityPub entity on the planet. With or without a mass block.

So if we can't stop the embrace, what can we do to combat the second E?
Will cover that next.

4 of N🧵

atomicpoet, to internet

Point blank, a mass Fediblock isn't going to work with #Meta.

The cold truth is that people will use #Barcelona whether it federates or not. Even if it fails, Barcelona will probably have more users out of the gate than almost every project save Mastodon. Hell, it will probably eclipse #Bluesky too.

And even if you convince every server to defederate -- which you won't -- this will not be a PR coup for the Fediverse. Newspaper headlines won't blare "Fediverse successfully resists Meta." Instead, they will probably follow @gruber take with "Open source zealots complain that an open protocol is open."

Again, as I've said countless times, I'm not saying you should federate with Barcelona or any Meta-owned property. If you want, defederate. The joy of the Fediverse is freedom of association.

But a mass Fediblock doesn't solve a few important problems with Meta, and perhaps makes them worse.

The most critical problem is that Meta users need to migrate away from Meta-owned social networks. Until now, a migration path has simply been unfeasible to most. But when Barcelona gets launched, it is possible that many of them will become aware of a greater Fediverse.

How to build that awareness? By interacting with them through services beyond Barcelona.

This approach works. I've interacted with many Mastodon users through services beyond Mastodon, and this has resulted in adoption of other Fediverse software. #Calckey is a case in point.

However, there's a bigger problem concerning Meta: Fediverse replacements for Meta-owned social networks aren't getting mass adoption. And it's not because these apps aren't good.

#Pixelfed is an #Instagram replacement. It is also one of the slickest apps on the Fediverse. Yet, Pixelfed only has 150,000 registered accounts.

#Friendica is a #Facebook replacement. It's been around since 2010. It is a mature product that does many things very well, but Friendica only has 17,000 registered accounts.

The software is great but we are failing to effectively market the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. Now I'm trying my darnedest to change this, and so are many people. But facts are facts. Fediverse alternatives to Meta are a blip on the radar.

Refusing to federate with Barcelona won't change this. How do I know?

Because we don't federate now, and the status quo remains intact.

Meanwhile, Meta is practically gifting Pixelfed and Friendica an opportunity for federation, and it would be foolish to not consider broader implications.

How is it that more people aren't considering this opportunity?

Dare I say that most people -- including devs -- suffer from myopia concerning what the Fediverse is. The Fediverse is not Mastodon, and it is wrong to view the Fediverse solely through the eyes of Mastodon.

And I'll go further: by focusing Barcelona on text, I suspect that Meta is likewise making the same mistake of viewing the Fediverse as a "Twitter killer".

What they may not be considering is that the Fediverse might be a "Meta killer" too. And connecting Barcelona to the Fediverse is opening a can of worms Meta hasn't entirely considered yet.

If Barcelona is indeed text-based, what will happen when a Barcelona user encounters Pixelfed and asks, "Why does this post show reels? And why can't I do the same?"

Believe me, this is the kind of content that triggers migration.

We need to think bigger than Fediblock. Yes, for your own mental health and safety, you may not want to federate with Barcelona. However, there needs to also be a means for Barcelona users to encounter content outside Barcelona.

Perhaps there needs to be "lobby" servers that help Barcelona users enter the greater Fediverse -- helping them make the switch beyond Meta.

oblomov,
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

@atomicpoet oh boy I have an enormous list of counterpoints. Hope you don't mind this getting split over multiple messages, I'm on Mastodon. So, anyway:

  1. the point of blocking #P92 isn't to make it fail, it's to prevent its usage as an #EEE torpedo against the #Fediverse

  2. Newspaper headlines will not speak positively of the #Fediverse either way. In fact, if it's let in, there's a high chance of it eating all the mindspace, because that's the objective:

1/

boud, to lemmy in Update from Lemmy after the Reddit blackout
@boud@framapiaf.org avatar

@sugar_in_your_tea As a non-lemmy-dev, I don't get to participate in that decision either, no matter how strong I think the arguments are.

I'm not convinced that the difficulty in switching is low; as you say, bug/issue tracking is a big barrier, but other features are part of the #EEE strategy [4], and switching later when MS upsets the community like Musk or Huffman will be difficult.

An official mirror would be a good start to make a future move easier.

@lemmy

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2c_extend%2c_and_extinguish

oblomov, to internet
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

I barely just finished posting about #Google's responsibility in killing off #RSS (and in what sense exactly) <https://sociale.network/@oblomov/110395233362332095> that Meta aka #Facebook confirms its upcoming #Instagram #Twitter competitor codenamed #Barcelona will “interoperate with #Mastodon” (i.e. will support #ActivityPub)

1/

oblomov,
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

The news comes just in time to remind us about the role #Facebook played in killing off #RSS via #EEE (#EmbraceExtendExtinguish). Luckily, the memory is still fresh enough for some of us, see e.g. @brennen post <https://federation.p1k3.com/@brennen/110396633851079671> in support of @noracodes reminder of the threat to the Fediverse that Facebook represents <https://tenforward.social/@noracodes/110396601012566910>.

2/

oblomov,
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

BTW one thing I realized is missing here (because as I was writing this thread I was also discussing this elsewhere, and my mind tried to avoid duplication): #RSS isn't the only thing Meta aka #Facebook and #Google siphoned the energy off: there was another important protocol that they #EEE-ed into oblivion: #XMPP, which was a federated (reminds you of anything), open, extensible protocol for chat/instant messaging.

12/11+

oblomov, to random
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

Look, it's not that I don't get the enthusiasm about #P92‌/‌#Barcelona —that's not the reason why I warn against federating with it <https://sociale.network/@oblomov/110397020867065165>. I do get it. There is something elating, validating, empowering even, when some{one,thing} Big & Famous (seems to) adopts “underdog” tech. I know because I've been there, both as a user and as a developer. But because of that, and for having been burned already not once, not twice, but three times at least, I know what to look out for.

1/

oblomov,
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

Now if the #Fediverse had the resilience to plow through #Meta's attempt at torpedoing it with #P92‌/‌#Barcelona, or if Meta actually had good intentions regarding federation, the privacy angle would be something to think about (whatever decision is taken ultimately, I assume different instances will have different takes on the matter). But if the #EEE strategy works, privacy will be the least of our worries, as the #Fediverse will crumble back to “also ran” numbers.

13/

ebinger, to internet German
@ebinger@bildung.social avatar

zum Thema
blocken oder föderieren?

Beim 6. wollen wir mit euch zusammen über die Situation rund um und eine eventuell zukünftig stattfindende Zusammenarbeit einiger Fediverse-Instanzen mit der geplanten -App sprechen, die mit Mastodon interagieren kann.

Organisiert von @ueckueck @ebinger und @w4ts0n

Anmeldung und Infos: https://termine.social/events/bfb53037-43a3-4807-80f9-13d83e809f71

kkarhan,

@ebinger @ueckueck @w4ts0n @vantablack angesichts dessen dass #EEE - Taktiken seitens aller #GAFAMs bewiesen sind, sehe ich da wenig Spielraum...

anatudor, to webdev

#tinyCSStip

In #CSS, an inset box-shadow is drawn above the background, but underneath the content.

VinceAggrippino,
@VinceAggrippino@techhub.social avatar

@anatudor

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/box-shadow#values

div {  
 font-size: 5rem;  
 font-weight: 900;  
 background-image: repeating-linear-gradient(45deg, #eee 10px 20px, #ccc 20px 30px);  
 display: inline-block;  
 box-shadow: inset 0.25em 0.25em 0.35em gold;  
}

https://codepen.io/VAggrippino/pen/ZEqyZGB

cendawanita, (edited ) to myMOAC in Meta's Twitter Alternative Will Probably Be Called 'Threads'
cendawanita avatar

Now I'm just posting takes that I vibe with. There are MANY but for this thread I'm picking what I feel is representative to the points that are being made repeatedly across fedi:

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish
https://sociale.network/@oblomov/110522409703366548 talks about why a preemptive block/ban/defed from a FBmeta enterprise is necessary:
1. it'll be huge and extremely poorly moderated;
2. it will be a #privacy nightmare, allowing Meta to extensively profile #Fediverse users with greater ease;
3. it will be used to #EEE the Fediverse in the same way their “support” for #RSS and #XMPP was used to wipe them out from the general consciousness with a rug-pull (my full thoughts on this:http://wok.oblomov.eu/tecnologia/credible-threat-1/)

(Oh! Found the post I lost: https://mstdn.social/@rysiek/110548129223290575)

On point no. 3, in addition to his post, some more references:
https://takebackourtech.org/xmpp-comeback/

He didn't mention email but he should: https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three-years-i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html

nixCraft, to random
@nixCraft@mastodon.social avatar

it's nice always to discover alternative for our default choices let's check 6 Github alternatives that are open source and self-hosted https://www.cyberciti.biz/open-source/github-alternatives-open-source-seflt-hosted/

SpaceLifeForm,

@nixCraft

It was obvious from the gitgo when Microsoft bought Github, it would not go well. #EEE

PanNindyk, to random Polish
@PanNindyk@wspanialy.eu avatar

Oho, wygląda na to, że w fedi mamy kolejną inbę.

Rozeszła się plotka, że twórca Masto i kilka innych osób związanych z projektem rozmawiało z Meta, a nawet podpisała jakiegoś NDA z nimi. I że to na pewno oznacza że albo Masto zostanie sprzedane Zuckerbergowi, albo też stanie się coś tam innego (w sumie to nie wiadomo co), ale na pewno będzie to coś złego dla fedi 😅 I już podnosi się raban, i już jest nawoływanie do podpisywania petycji anti-Meta, już jest zachęcanie by ludzie zgłaszali adminom swoich instancji, by jak tylko Meta zacznie korzystać z ActivityPub to od razu ich blokować, itp. itd.

A ponoć chodzi o to, że Meta się szykuje do tego, by wpiąć się właśnie do protokołu AP. Czy to dobrze czy źle to nie wiem. Ale z tego co mi wiadomo, to ten protokół jest otwarty i KAŻDY może się do niego wpiąć, nawet spółka Zucka. Pytanie tylko jak go wykorzystają i co dalej z tego wyniknie. Ale straszenie powtórką z historii mariażu Google z XMPP jest.

miklo,

@bmalkow @muppeth @emill1984 @skrybatv @realwaaagh @m0bi13 @PanNindyk A Ty nie wiesz jak działa efekt silniejszego albo inaczej mówiąc #eee ? Najpierw się federujesz, robisz efekt skali bo powstaną nowe (również duże instancje), dla których to właśnie będzie atrakcyjne, że fedi może rozmawia z korpo-kontami. A kiedy korpo coś tam zmieni (ulepszy!) w protokole to kto sie do kogo będzie chciał (musiał...) dostosować ? Bez facebooka ten mechanizm tez działa na fediverse tylko "szary" obywatel fedi tego w ogóle nie widzi. Mam na myśli dominację mastodona i jego api. Przecież to twórca mastodona rządzi api a inne projekty tylko próbują nadążyć i się dopasować jeśłi chcą pozostać kompatybilne np żeby klienty mastodona z nimi działały. To jest mikro-skala problemu bo tu jakby nie ma intencji biznersowego monopolu nad pozostałymi. Ale dokładnie tak będzie działać FB. To oni wymuszą "ulepszenia", ktore im zapewnią kontrolę na tych , którzy byli na tyle naiwni, że ich od początku nie zablokowali. A pierwsze będą "ulepszenia", które np umozliwą monetyzację czy inne korpo-shitowe mechanizmy uzależenienia userów, automatyczne algorytmy i inne 💩

vipaal, to technology in Microsoft has no shame: Bing spit on my ‘Chrome’ search with a fake AI answer 🤯

Interesting move by #Microsoft

Only weeks ago, https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/04/water-starved-middle-east-large-chatgpt-data-centers-are-threat , https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2023/04/thirsty-ai-training-chatgpt-required-enough-water-to-fill-a-nuclear-reactors-cooling-tower-study-finds/ and the #nomoat leaks from #google were making rounds

Is this some #eee and #fud like strategy being employed by Microsoft?

oblomov, to fediverse
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

A lot of people seem to be unaware that the “extend” part of #EEE is optional.

#Barcelona #Fediverse #ItsATrap #TrojanHorse

matthieu_xyz, to fediverse

Thinking about the rare cases where #EEE actually worked (unlike the many many cases where it didn’t work and open protocol won).

Mastodon first launched as a OStatus implementation (Embrace)

Then Mastodon started to implement ActivityPub as a second protocol (Extend)

Then Mastodon decided to drop support for OStatus and only federate with ActivityPub (Extinguish)

Or maybe OStatus just sucks, IDK. 🙂

#ActivityPub #fediverse #meta #instagram #barcelona #project92 #p92 #hreads

devnull, to Pixelfed
@devnull@crag.social avatar

Very interested in seeing what can cause @dansup to do what is seen to be a complete 180° in just under 14 hours.

I am also waiting for the inevitable reference to and how perhaps has gone straight to the third E 🫢

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