@masukomi@dice.camp
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

masukomi

@masukomi@dice.camp

πŸ‘‰ Senior Back-End Dev. Seeking Remote Position πŸ‘ˆ

Autodidactic, Autistic, ADHD, Trans πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈ, programmer who loves thinking about TTRPGs.

If you're interested in hearing my random thoughts about life, programming geekery, 3D printing, and cute pics of my dogs and cat, then follow my other account at https://connectified.com/@masukomi

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masukomi, to random
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

Discovered that in Me Myself & Die Season 4 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDvunq75UfH8DBmsn76dOzI0js0lhKRuV

Trevor is playing a game he created. Intrigued, I started listening despite being behind.

Initial thought: I LOVE the combination of d100 roll-under system with a "blackjack mechanic".

You need to roll under your skill but also a high as possible without going over.

When you successfully roll to attack one of the dice you already rolled indicates hit location!

🧡 (short)

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

Normally I hate dealing with hit location but this integration is SO smooth that it's essentially no work and i'm like "sure. why not?"

There are "phases" to combat: mΓͺlΓ©e attacks, then ranged, then magic, then "other". I really don't like this. WAY too fiddly.

--
oh, re. the roll under but as high as possible, the tens die indicates the number of "degrees of success" which you can then apply to the outcome (immediate or future) of that roll.

I really like this.

🧡

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

I'm excited to see where he takes this system.

I love how he's combined all these mechanical things into one roll in a way that is really easy to remember.

Do you know of any other roll-under + blackjack systems? Or any that load extra info onto the already rolled dice like this?

I'm assuming these aren't original ideas because really SO FEW game mechanics are. Our predecessors had a LOT of time to try out ideas & share the results. πŸ˜‰

masukomi, to random
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

After that long 🧡 about flow-charts I realized that after having recently consolidated & cleaned up all the rules for MY game, it was actually in a state where it was ready for this treatment.

I'm not done & it's already significantly improved one rule.

🧡1/3

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

I have a D6 pool system, but it's possible for a player to end up with negative dice. In this case they roll 1D with "Disadvantage".

The target is almost always 1 success, & I had this clumsy explanation that when rolling with Disadvantage you had to roll 1 additional success, on top of whatever the target number was.

That complicated the flow chart by requiring a 2nd parallel path. Seeing this complication made me realize I could achieve the same result, by simply reframing it…
🧡2/3

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

…& saying that rolling with advantage increased the target number by 1. πŸŽ‰

This ALSO simplified determining if a roll was a "Simple Success" or a "Critical Success" because now you don't have to do something different if the person was rolling with disadvantage.

I'll show the resulting flow in a sec, but i just realized i can simplify it even more!
🧡3/3

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

The extra last-minute simplification was that I don't have to have a question about rolling with advantage & disadvantage to account for the fact they cancel out.

This also ends up making life easier for the GM in a few subtle ways.

🧡4/3

masukomi, (edited ) to random
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

@Taskerland commented that my #Dragonbane flow-chart looked "Fiendish". They're not wrong, and I wanted to talk about that. More specifically about the hidden complexity in games & how designers need to think about things differently than players.

Here's a cleaned up version. Don't worry about reading the individual nodes, they're not important to this discussion.

Side note: I'd love to make these for your unreleased game in exchange for money. πŸ˜‰
🧡1/16

masukomi, (edited )
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

Game mechanics are WAY more complex than most players (GMs included) realize. We learn the patterns, (heuristics), repeat them without thinking, & skip entire sections of decision trees without realizing it.

For example, let's look at the first section of the chart. A player doesn't ask themselves "is this a combat roll?". If they're not wearing a helmet, they won't ask themselves if their action is negatively effected by them wearing one.

[edit added missing image]

🧡2/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

However, a Game Designer DOES need to ask that question, because if you don't, you can end up writing rules where a player can never fail.

For ex. In D&D you can combine Polymorph (common 4th level spell) + a Bag Of Devouring and win basically every encounter. Turn bad guy into weak slow creature. Drop creature into bag. "Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed."
🧡3/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

D&D is a massive collection of edge cases which makes it impossible for designers to prevent this.

At the same time, edge cases are frequently very fun & interesting. But you don't need to have chaos.

FATE is a good example of this.
🧡4/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

FATE's Stunts are explicitly edge cases. BUT they've set up clear guidelines for defining them and the type of effects they can have.

The end result is a handful of categories / buckets defining the types of effect a stunt can have on the game. This makes it EASY for game designers to test.
🧡5/16

masukomi, (edited )
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

Some will argue that FATE's TOO limited in how it restricts the effect of Stunts.

BUT games like Genesys and Savage Worlds show that it's not hard to take it to the next logical step, and have lots of abilities that feel unique, but are really just variations on a smaller set of things. Again they're creating a set of core mechanical things, & instructing folks to flavor them as needed.

I like SWADE's example under Trappings.

🧡6/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

So, back to the Flow Chart.
Flow charts like these are an EXCELLENT tool for game designers. Some GMs might find them useful, but they're TERRIBLE tool for players.

The exercise of creating the flow chart shows you where you've forgotten to consider options.

Stepping back and viewing the shape and flow of the chart without focusing on the individual decisions tells you a lot too.
🧡7/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

Some examples that become pretty clear from viewing and making this chart

  1. calculating how many D20s to roll is pretty straightforward.

  2. Resolving the outcome of rolls is notably more complex.

2a. accounting for "Parry" and "Dodge" introduced a TON of complexity.

2b. if you're Parrying or Dodging, then accounting for a "Dragon" (crit) rolled by an attacker adds ~1/3 more complexity.

  1. accounting for harm & death rolls is pretty simple

🧡8/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

  1. accounting for different damage types adds in a lot of complexity

  2. there's an entire section of the graph dedicated to resolving "Successful Non-Dragon Combat Rolls"

To me this last one is a HUGE red flag regarding the design. The fact that that section (green) is almost as big as everything you had to go through to get to it (blue) is just 🀯.

I'm betting that wasn't intended. I'm also betting, they didn't make a chart like this.

🧡9/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

BUT again, the at-the-table experience of this - and most other games - is going to be RADICALLY simpler feeling that the chart suggests.

It's not that the complexity goes away. It's that humans are good at ignoring things we don't need to pay attention to at the moment.
🧡10/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

Players give us a limited "attention budget" to work with. The more complexity we give them, the more of that budget we're spending.

This chart tells me the designers spent little of that budget on figuring out how many d20s to roll, and little on taking damage & dying. However, they spent a crapload on answering the question of "did my roll succeed?"
🧡11/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

Dragonbane's pitch is simple. Roll against your skill / ability. If you roll lower, you succeed. "Easy". But we can see that there are a crapload of asterisks on that "Easy".

This is fine. In play folks mostly won't notice.

HOWEVER it's important to ask yourself "Is that complexity worth the mental drain on the players?"

The Year Zero really is just "did you get a 6? You succeed." There are only 2 exceptions to this, where you might need more than one, and you'd know they were in
🧡12/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

...play before rolling.

If I designed Dragonbane I'd have SERIOUSLY reconsidered the inclusion of the "Parry" and "Dodge" rules after seeing this. They introduce a TON of complexity and they're almost-but-not-quite the same.

I "get" them. They're not "bad" rules.

Ex. Only being able to Parry an attack that was a critical hit, IF you ALSO get a critical hit AND have a better result
🧡13/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

...makes a TON of sense, & protects the value of a critical successes. It's also IMNSHO just not worth the complexity.

(sorry thread chunks got a little messed up)
🧡14/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

To summarize.
Make flow charts of how your game works. Pay attention when start having to add in lots of decision points to account for some little feature / ability. Question if it's worth it. Step back and consider if the the things in each section are really worth the complexity they contain.
🧡15/16

masukomi, (edited )
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

FIN for now, but I suspect my brain's going to be noodling on this more so... πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ maybe not. πŸ˜‰

And again, l'd love to chat about making these for your unreleased game(s).

[edit] I only threw this graph together last night. I haven't done full-on-confirmation. There may be more edge cases to account for, and that's the main reason why I'm not putting up a full-rez version yet.
🧡16/16

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

I have some thoughts & advice for how to approach this, but I think this is the wrong medium. Here's my take on what you shared. I have an idea for explaining how i approach this more. I'll DM you later.

masukomi, to random
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

I flowcharted all the stuff related to a player rolling a check (attacking / defending / whatever) in

It looks complicated but I swear to you that this is nothing compared to D&D and most other "trad" games.

masukomi,
@masukomi@dice.camp avatar

@Taskerland a) thanks b) while THIS chart is terrible for players HOLY SHIT YES FOR CHARACTER CREATION!

There are other solutions that help. I think Pathfinder 2 did a GREAT job of addressing the fact that there was a lot to do, while simultaneously using text to hold players hands and say "There's a lot to do. but don't worry. Here's what we're going to do. Here's the order things will happen. We'll take you through it step by step. See? It's easy when you break it down"

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