For Video games subtitles are ok. But with movies, I have them. They are too diszracting for me so I read subtitles all the time instead of watching the movie. If I wanted to read a book, I would read a book...
I know this is about video games but for movies it's often the case that they were mixed for a surround sound system and then just combined for the stereo out that most people end up using.
That's the answer in my book. I mainly use it for that very same purpose. Additionally, new games with their own game worlds and confusing made up words that sound different between characters.
Rarely, if ever. But if I watch something local it is usually news, game shows or something like that, not big screen productions that usually suffer from this "loud sound, silent speech" annoyance.
Unless it's some rural dialect. Then all bets are off. But then I have the same problem with many English dialects.
Germans are so used to dubs with comparatively louder voices due to it being recorded in a studio, that we also mix our movies that way.
I believe that the different "school" of filmmaking in Germany also plays a part. Classical german movies are more similar to stageplays with a focus on dialogues and the story itself, at the expense of a bit of immersion. Hollywood type movies on the other hand are meant to be watched on a big screen and try to be as true to life in dialogues as they can, meaning that they include noise and cut off sentences in the middle to make it seem like it wasnt acted at all, but that impedes the intelligibility of the things being said if you dont have a good audio setup. So you have the difference between clear but a bit stiff and immersive but sometimes intelligible.
Poor sound mixing is exactly why I watch most things with subs by default now. I got sick of constantly having to turn the volume up to hear dialogue and then quickly back down to avoid massive explosions etc.
I just encountered that when playing Fallout 76 for the first time. When I first started up the game everything was so loud so I turned it down to what I thought would be a good level. But when I played a holotape in a terminal it was so quiet AND even when I had subtitles turned on for some reason they didn't appear :/
And I feel this is an escalating problem. Sound mixing is generally horrible in both games and movies/TV. Unless you blow out your speakers during the higher peaks, you've got no chance of hearing dialogue.
Does anyone have any clue to why this is such a well-spread phenomenon? Why is it like this? I mean, I get it (kinda) at a cinema, but I think it's way overplayed there as well.
It seems tv audio engineers expect everyone to have a high end theater speaker setup: that's the only way to be able to hear it, apart from to use headphones, which is cheaper, but it's not a great solution. You'd think apps like netflix and Disney plus would be able to include a setting like video games that selects a different audio mix, or separate tracks for dialogue and sfx each with thier own volume slider.
For films, you have idiots like Christopher Nolan who's head is so far up his own ass he can probably see daylight. He purposefully mixes the audio poorly so nobody can hear anything, and likes it that way because .... something something something immersion artsy bullshit. I couldn't even finish watching Tenet, we turned it off halfway through because we had zero clue what was going on, and I will refuse to ever watch another Nolan film after that.
For games, I think it's just poor mixing, I doubt they mean to do it on purpose. They just don't invest in the proper audio people.
Interesting, I thought the sound mixing in films was poor because it was designed for cinema viewing and then not optimised for home setups. But I don't watch many movies on the big screen anymore. I thought at least some people were enjoying good quality mixing haha
That's a big part of it. And people can have so many different set ups now too. And there isn't time/funding to redo the mix for them all. There was a good article that covered some of the various reasons, I can't find it but some others...
The article I'm thinking of also mentioned mics changing, and actors not having to speak directly into it to get anything. So it opens up far more realistic acting, but makes capturing/mixing that dialogue more difficult.
That's really interesting too! I guess there are so many combinations of recording equipment, the quality of the mix, the streaming services spec, and the consumers set up, that they can't accommodate everyone.
I honestly am a huge Nolan fan but could not agree more with his audio lately. I was really frustrated in the theater during Dunkirk trying to figure out what the heck Tom Hardy was saying. Tenet, at times, was also pretty bad. I still really liked both movies, but they would have been better experiences if I could have not dedicated so many resources to hear a word in a garbled mess of voice.
Nolan movies are meant to be loud. Obnoxiously loud. I saw Dunkirk in 70mm IMAX and it was punishingly loud, and amazing.
Basically, Nolan movies can't be watched in any shared or multi-unit living situations. You need to crank them to "this is going to piss off the neighbours" volume. But that's specific to the types of movies he makes, which are experiences more than narratives.
Part of it is they are mixed in professional environments (studios) for professional environments (cinema).
Part of it is they can't mix for someone with a 10 year old tv using its built in speakers in a shared living room with street noise, 15 feet from the sofa and a brand new TV through a sound bar in a rural mansion 8 feet from the sofa, and someone using airpods over Bluetooth.
Plus people tend to listen to things at a volume similar to conversational level, but in a cinema you listen to things at a volume that would be considered impolite to your neighbors if you did it in an apartment block.
Finally, sound engineers are artists and dynamics (louder and quieter parts) are part of their craft. Actors are artists and their vocal performances also have dynamics.
A question to ask yourself is have you considered more actively participating in the sound delivery methods of your media? I'm not here to say "all people are watching TV wrong!" but I would ask if most people have even thought carefully about their sound delivery choices, their own EQ settings in their TV, how well tuned their environment is for active listening, and if they just need to turn their volume up?
I appreciate not everyone can blaze the sound on max — but if you do have to sacrifice some volume, maybe part of that tradeoff is clarity of dialogue?
Even in theaters, however, the sound mixing in Tenet was way off. And that may be bad setups at the theaters, but the fact that the complaint was so widespread indicates that the blame likely rests elsewhere.
You say this like there aren't plenty of movies and shows that don't have this problem at all, even YouTubers generally knock this out of the park.
Dialogue is one of the only things that should always be clear, it exists to tell the story and missing critical parts of that because they can't be assed to make sure it sounds half decent in more than one specific environment using one specific audio technology is not something I'm willing to support.
Nolan is just partially deaf imo. Dynamic Range is nice and especially for the 5.1 mix it's great. Still dialogue should be understandable and at least be mostly mixed to the center channel so I can boost it if I want.
Also the 2.1 mix needs to focus on dialogue. No one who watches in 2.1 cares for the dynamic range and subbass stuff imho.
I'm not saying they need to mix for everyone, but how hard is it to make a decent 2.1 channel mix? That would cover 99% of the people complaining with minimal effort.
This is why I think dynamic range compression should be a standard feature for TVs, phones, stereos, PCs and other consumer devices that output audio. Something to even out quiet dialogue and loud explosions would be a godsend for movie watchers everywhere.
I know Windows has a compressor of sorts built in, the audio equalization feature, and I wish there were a good equivalent for this on Linux.
Truth be told, with my auditory processing issues, I'd probably still be using subtitles in tandem with compression/equalization if it were an option. BUT, it'd still be nice to have for watching things late at night without waking other people up.
Funnily enough, watching TV in bed is the other reason I started watching with subs! I've since switched to bluetooth headphones for that and I find I don't usually need subtitles if I'm using them.
You don't. In The Netherlands we always watch with subtitles in theaters and at home for foreign movies/series (and sometimes even Dutch due to the mixing issues and trying to eat snacks ;) ). You read these without looking a them directly.
Huge agree. If I can watch Redline and Dead Leaves in their original language with English subtitles first and miss nothing when compared to watching the English dub after the fact, I think I can catch pretty much whatever most movies will throw at me just fine.
I don’t have to actually read them slowly, its like an extra thing giving me information. Like seeing words and hearing them in one go. It’s not distracting in the slightest
Where it does apply, you got an excuse for a second viewing.
Plus if we're talking about games, you generally should have some awareness of your surroundings even when watching subtitles. If you didn't, just paying attention to your UI while playing would be difficult.
As if my ADHD ass could choose to only pay attention to the subtitles anyway?
It's like reading a road sign while driving on the freeway. I can read the sign out of my peripheral vision, without focusing on it or taking my eyes off the road. I assumed everyone did this?
I always have subtitles turned on for games. Audio processing isn't my strong suit at the best of times, let alone when fantasy accents and weird vocabulary end up involved. I usually end up using them for TV shows and movies as well, at least when watching by myself. I just wish real life came with them, haha.
Apparently I'm in the minority here.
Subtitles drive me insane, and I always turn them off. My eyes always get drawn to the subtitles so I miss what's happening onscreen. I also read faster than the dialog is spoken, but my brain gets interrupted by the spoken dialog while it's processing what I just read, so I get the same information twice but struggle to retain the actual meaning. I have no idea how anyone can tolerate subtitles unless they actually need them.
just talking to people in voice (maybe even playing together) and following the story without having to shush people all the time makes subtitles worthwhile
I tend to watch everything I can with subtitles these days, watching old stuff again it's amazing just how much I was missing, either through sound design issues or just zoning out momentarily. The only issue is when the subtitles get ahead of the dialogue and you end up with a bit of a spoiler, albeit only by a few seconds.
I've also discovered some absolute gems of sounds/music being subtitled, one of my favourite ever being from the TV show Taskmaster, the sound effect of [he strums balalaika tunelessly], which added so much more than just hearing him strum tunelessly did.
The only issue is when the subtitles get ahead of the dialogue and you end up with a bit of a spoiler, albeit only by a few seconds.
This is the only real criticism of subtitles that I'll agree with, since you'll sometimes have a joke juimed because you'll read ahead of the dialog, but I'll take that any day over missing bits of story or jokes and either repeatedly rolling back to try to hear/understand something (and ruining the experience) or just not enjoying what I'm watching.
It’s particularly frustrating when the subtitles have the sentence stop, so you know something is going to interrupt, usually someone being attacked. But I agree, it’s a minor inconvenience compared to the potential for missing key plot points or jokes, and having to ruin the flow by going back to listen again.
I'm not from an English speaking country, and even though most games come dubbed to my language nowadays, I still prefer non-dubbed content, and subtitles help a lot.
I hate how they're almost always off by default and you usually can't turn them on until after the opening scene. I have them on whenever possible for both games and watching TV.
This has definitely gotten better in recent years. You can almost date games by whether they have subtitles by default or if they provide some prompted settings for that sort of thing on first boot of the game.
IMO every game on first launch should solicit these options:
resolution
vsync
subtitles
brightness
colorblind/accessibility options
Most times going into settings are to change one of those options, so why not quickly let the player set them all at once on the get-go? There's a 99% chance at least one of those options will need to change for the player/machine needs.
On for me. It helps me focus on the game's story. Especially since having Covid, it's gotten noticeably worse. Enough to make me think I may have adult onset ADHD. Reading and hearing a story helps me stay engaged.
Add comment