skaly,
@skaly@mastodon.social avatar

"Zionists all hate Palestinians and want to ethnic cleanse them."
Literally every Zionist and Jewish protest:
100k people singing songs for peace together
We don't want this war. Never did. We love being the only democracy and only safe state in the middle east for LGBTQIA+ folks. We love each other, love our Beduin, Druze and Muslim Israeli brothers and sisters. We want peace. But then Gazans behead our children while screaming "Yehud" (Jews) and the world denies it. Then there's war.

chiraag,
@chiraag@mastodon.online avatar

@skaly Peace is not the same as justice, though. Apartheid South Africa was at peace until it wasn't (i.e. the organized resistance started fighting back). India under the British was at peace until it wasn't (Gandhi and others started organizing a coordinated resistance). Jim Crow US was at peace until it wasn't (MLK and Malcom X and others started organizing a coordinated resistance).

Peace does not mean justice. There needs to be justice and an abolishment to apartheid.

skaly,
@skaly@mastodon.social avatar

@chiraag
Sure, some areas had been occupied and there has been injustice acts I don't support.
With that said, almost all killing of Muslim individuals is not due to them "resisting". It's due to them committing terror. Besides Gaza is not occupied since 2005.
The West Bank have their own leadership and their police and our soldiers don't walk around there oppressing people - they only are present around the Jewish neighborhoods protecting them.
So, what apartheid are you talking about?

chiraag,
@chiraag@mastodon.online avatar
chiraag,
@chiraag@mastodon.online avatar
skaly,
@skaly@mastodon.social avatar

@chiraag I don't need you to teach me what happens where I literally live, this is ridiculous and incredibly condescending

chiraag,
@chiraag@mastodon.online avatar

@skaly Your experience as a Jew in Israel does not negate investigations by human rights organizations also based in Israel and Palestine. So let me ask you: Do you dispute B'Tselem's and Yesh Din's findings and the facts in their reports?

chiraag,
@chiraag@mastodon.online avatar

@skaly Still waiting for your response on this. I've generally tried to make it a point to respond to your responses and I feel like I deserve at least that much respect, whether or not we agree on things.

So I will ask you again: Are you disputing the facts in the B'Tselem and Yesh Din reports?

@israel @palestine #israel #palestine

skaly,
@skaly@mastodon.social avatar

@chiraag Jewish refugees were peaceful and have moved into empty lands mostly and bought loads of land from Palestinians. Later on, there have been territories occupied. Most of which had been given back, expelling thousands of Jews by the Israeli government out of their homes to give back territories for ceasefires, for chances of peace.Do you think I walk around asking Muslim folks to obey me or something? They are my equals by law and action. We study together, work together, marry each other

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

>> the cognitive, emotional, and moral load become unwieldy, and #disengaging is the path of least resistance

I’m willing to #engage

>> As someone who’s just a history nerd with an interest in wicked problems…

Let’s untangle the “wicked problems” together. I will be efficient & not tag people beyond this 1st post

@skaly @Jeanpaul @Yehuda @nancylwayne @chiraag @Lassielmr @spiegelmama @paninid @llanciawn @israel @palestine

>> I see the arrogance of someone smugly secure in their worldview…

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️
>> After #Nakba, what should surrounding #Arab countries have done?

After destruction of #Europe in #WWII, #US launched the #MarshallPlan initiative ➡️
https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111451946011304835

Where is the oil-rich #ArabLeague, #GCC, and #Iran's equivalent of the US Marshall Plan for their #Brothers in #Palestine?

>> When #Palestinians' land was stolen from under them, should their nominal allies have turned around and recognized the theft as legitimate?

It was not “stolen”, It was bought, and paid for.
⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> should their nominal allies have turned around and recognized the theft as legitimate?

#Arab nations and #AxisOfResistence fight for #Palestinians #inTheirName only ➡️
https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111460545544584587

Arab nations have no #skinInTheGame ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111467952252214629

>> Whether or not Jews have a historical claim to the land is frankly immaterial.

#WTF?

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> #British signed away their land to the newly created state of Israel…

British didn’t “sign away” their land, any more than they signed away land of #BritishIndia to #Pakistan & #EastPakistan (now #Bangladesh)

>> paving the way for massive expulsion of Palestinians

#BalfourDeclaration preserved interests of BOTH sides ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111496434887169377

15+ million #Hindus and #Muslims were displaced across the eastern and western borders of #India in 1947

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> if Greek went to Turkey saying they had a historical connection to Anatolia & then proceeded to kick Turkish people off their land

“THEIR land” included the land that #Ottomans seized from the very same #Arabs & #Palestinians you’re defending ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111493882749029059

>> if Italians went to Britain and annexed all of England, since that had been part of the Roman Empire

Perhaps take this argument to #Putin’s revanchist dreams in #Ukraine? ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111447116135374826

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> So many people treat Israel's right to exist as a fundamental truth

's right to exist is a FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH, just like ’s right to exist, and 's right to exist.

India and Pakistan are but neither has called for the destruction or elimination of the other ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111445064812670088

>> and questioning that gets you labeled as

Questioning Israel’s RIGHT TO EXIST is dictionary definition of

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> US, Canada, Mexico, … all are built on stolen land

#SocietiesAreNotStatic

#SocietiesAreNotHomogenous

Wars of conquest were the norm at some point, but they are not any more.

>> ideal for Israelis with #Kahanist leanings

Gratuitously dredging up #Kahanism, that is not on anybody’s radar

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> If Palestinians had just … politely refused, then maybe they’d have a two-state solution.

They had a #TwoStateSolution in 1947, just like #India and #Pakistan did. Unlike latter, they refused.

You espouse #violence instead of politeness.

The issue was NEVER one of independence but one of #jewish PRESENCE next to them.

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> America is not as tiny as Israel… there's no place for brain washing and misinformation as there is in a huge land

True.

Look at this map and tell me why that hardly discernible blue sliver is a thorn on the side of the green and red Arab land?

It is not the land (it’s tiny). The crux of the problem is ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111470584804957759

Also the jewish population is minuscule compared to muslim population ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111427363589613818

⬇️

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

⬆️

>> A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: This is apartheid

Have you been living under a rock through the and , particularly the latter?

>> we are somehow supposed to support Jewish claims to the land based on the Torah and therefore we should be okay with the massive displacement, murder, and pillage that characterized the formation of the state of Israel?

Even ignoring and ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111494007586354401

paninid,
@paninid@mastodon.world avatar

@rameshgupta
Why do you believe that Kahanists, Islamists, and Christian Dominionists are fundamentally different from each other? 🤔

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

@paninid

I said dredging up #Kahanists in the present discussion was gratuitous because it is not on anybody's radar

paninid,
@paninid@mastodon.world avatar

@rameshgupta
It’s not on YOUR radar even though Netanyahu made an alliance with their intellectual heirs.

I think Israelis already know this.

Why do you choose to dismiss it?

Why do you choose to ignore who killed Yitzhak Rabin, and why?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-strikes-election-deal-far-right-parties-challengers-respond-own-n973891

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

@paninid

Of all the issues in the long thread, this is the hill you want to die on?

You want to focus on and , but the real story is much bigger.

The history of modern is intricately tied to that of , much more than people realize. India played an oversized role in the evolution of this region and it present problems.

If you are interested, I will tag you when I pull these threads together.

In the meantime ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111470408491233080

paninid,
@paninid@mastodon.world avatar

@rameshgupta
I have no intention of dying on any internet hills, my brother in Christ!

This is a proxy fight between medieval factions.

https://sampathpanini.medium.com/two-millennia-of-nuance-94b2e09f9a24

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

@paninid

You have explicitly defended the long tirade by
@chiraag, and my long thread is a response to much of the garbage in there.

You said you are a history nerd with an interest in "wicked problems" but it seems like you are already on your knees throwing up your hands in the air "This is a proxy fight"

This was not a problem in medieval times -- Palestine had been under #TurkishYoke since 1517. WWI finally brought them independence, as 1947 did to India.

We celebrated. They grievanced.

paninid,
@paninid@mastodon.world avatar

@rameshgupta @chiraag

I use the internet and also go out and touch grass with my bare feet. I highly recommend it.

A #WickedProblem does not have a simple solution.

In fact, it requires radical collaboration in an attempt to make it less worse.

There’s a solution, hand in hand, but it doesn’t involve Kahanism, Islamists, or Christian Dominionists making policy decisions and we’re not at all close to that.

https://open.substack.com/pub/lifeisasacredtext/p/hand-in-hand?r=4hxgy&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

@paninid @chiraag

>> A #WickedProblem does not have a simple solution.

>> In fact, it requires radical collaboration in an attempt to make it less worse.

Sure, but in order to reach a solution, you first have to acknowledge the problem — Here, the problem is not one of #independence, but one of #Jewish presence, as countless pieces of evidence show.

Also, to achieve collaboration, you must assign the blame on ALL blameworthy parties. The thread was bogus in just piling on #Jews & #Israel.

paninid,
@paninid@mastodon.world avatar

@rameshgupta @chiraag
Speaking only for myself, I don’t blame Jewish people for being the targets of terrorism.

To blame people of the Jewish faith for bad things that happen to them is simple anti-Semitism.

The diaspora was largely skeptical of the concept of Zionism until the Holocaust.

“Zion” was not a physical place until the 19th century; advocating for it implied that Jews could not or should not assimilate, which is an anti-Semitic idea.

Herzl thought it’d go as badly as it has.

rameshgupta,
@rameshgupta@mastodon.social avatar

@paninid @chiraag

Bulk of the thread by @chiraag blamed unilaterally, and you seemed to go along with it.

If you want to recant now, I'm not going to quibble — We all make mistakes 🙂

The rejected in 1913 ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111468900312146738

The idea gained traction only because of surprise entry of in .

Even after , offered Turkey an opportunity to stave it off because winning WWI was more important than Zionism. Turkey still refused!

Bam, (edited )
@Bam@sfba.social avatar

@rameshgupta @paninid @chiraag

You also missed that, since the First Temple period, Mount Zion has referred to the Temple Mount. The idea that Zion and Zionism didn’t refer to a specific place, when that place has been in our liturgy since the Babylonian exile, is generously stated to be creative and more appropriately an effort at Jewish erasure.

Jeanpaul,
@Jeanpaul@glasgow.social avatar
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