Extraordinary that there's virtually no coverage in western media of China's extraordinary expansion of its railway network, and no questions about why we can't or don't do the same #Railway#China#Europe#US
@sinabhfuil And come to find out, America has one of the biggest railway networks, but mainly for cargo, and cargo takes priority on the tracks. This would be like us having to pay extra to drive on highways, and only after trucks have used it.
@santiago@sinabhfuil@crypticinquiry sadly this is the UK pre and post Beeching… the UK has a long history of self-harm (don’t get me started on lost cycling infrastructure)
@sinabhfuil Probably because it wouldn't spark enough outrage.
There's actually quite an extensive railway system in the US... for freight rail. And because <historical reasons> the railway industry is basically deregulated, minus a few ones (like passenger rail having priority) that are flat out ignored because the ONE entity in government that has the authority to actually prosecute that just... doesn't.
So, one, it's not up to the government, meaning we can't put political spin on it, and two, it already exists for the most part and three, that's not an attention grabber. Biden messing up a speech is, North Korea doing <anything> is. Texas banning water breaks is. CN doing this isn't politically charged, doesn't put the US in danger, and doesn't fit any of the usual hot-button topics to point fingers at. Ergo, pass.
I think China, probably decides it needs a railway between A and B and just gets on with it. In the UK, we have protected areas, but also lots of planning rules, objections from people, and endless delays in building infrastructure, this causes delays but then adds to cost.
@sinabhfuil I imagine one reason we can’t do the same, alongside the lack of political will, is that we have certain regulations around treatment and pay for workers. I suspect the Chinese approach is less hampers by such details.
@sinabhfuil@crypticinquiry Have a look at the density of french railways before WWII. Of course quality improved with high speed trains on big lines but cars really took over in small regions.
It’s all about public policy. Socialism not focusing on car sales profits has some effects.
@siobhanmcelduff@sinabhfuil it’s a little easier to sell roads (votes) to a car dependent rural population. When they were extending the M11 south of Gorey some communities were appalled that they would not get a dedicated junction for their villages.
CPO land for a railway and many would not see it serving any useful purpose in their lives.
@MartinJBreen@sinabhfuil my point is that we won't even put down lines where we don't need to CPO land because it's still owned by Iarnrod Eireann - a line to Letterkenny being a case in point. That track is still there.
@siobhanmcelduff@MartinJBreen@sinabhfuil There’s been some complication in people building on that State-owned land; this happens to canal towpaths too (such as near me in Blanchardstown). It shouldn’t be ok, but then the local politicians get involved…
@siobhanmcelduff@MartinJBreen@sinabhfuil In Co. Meath the local CoCo put access to a sewage/water main directly in the route. And Lord Dunsaney, who is rewilding his estate, will tie himself to the tracks to stop it.
@sinabhfuil@feijoa Part of it is probably with China’s particular brand of capitalism you always try to meet growth targets by just having extreme amounts of economic activity by doing infrastructure projects, often regardless of if that infrastructure is truly needed.
Anyway, between US infrastructure neglect and China’s overbuilding the middle ground of building railway that is actually needed exists (and is probably better demonstrated by some other countries).
@torb@sinabhfuil@feijoa We actually have a word for the phenomenon: 基建狂魔 (lit. "infrastructure monster"). Also, local officials attract these projects to show off (though I suppose that's similar to the rest of the world).
Of course, how the labour for building these infrastructure is treated remains to be discussed...
Japan is probably the middle ground here (at least in terms of railways).
@austin@torb@sinabhfuil@feijoa
Hokkaido is the same size as Ireland yet only has one high speed líne connecting to the rest of Japan, no internal high speed lines, and many cities not rail connected
And Shinkansen lines started in 1964
@ColmDonoghue@torb@sinabhfuil@feijoa I meant Japan in general… But also JR Hokkaido has been operating at a serious loss and standard lines are being abandoned in favour of buses. Like in other countries, population density is quite low in rural Japan, though the effect is not as pronounced as in other regions as profits from a large urban area tend to subsidize costs in rural areas. Anyways, they’re still building the Shinkansen to Sapporo...
@sinabhfuil I’m not trying to be smart here, I am saying this based on my experience working as a city councillor. The problem is democracy (or at least our version of it). It’s far far easier to implement radical change when you a) don’t have to consult with groups who will be negatively affected by the change and b) don’t have to worry about getting re-elected.
@karlstanley@sinabhfuil It’s worth noting that Ireland’s formerly extensive railway network was built when Ireland was… in the Empire. So consultation when building the network wasn’t much of an issue.
@kevinteljeur@karlstanley And Ireland's first telecommunications network was built along those rail lines because the land was owned by the State and so wayleaves weren't a problem
@kevinteljeur@karlstanley@sinabhfuil Except the routes were forced by the local English lords. Quite often built not where it made sense, but where it was esthetically pleasing to them. Check e.g. the Dublin and Kingstown Railway, having a legitimate claim to be the oldest passenger route in the world. A lot of it is built within the sea cliff so that that it wouldn't spoil Lord Cloncurry's view.
@skolima@karlstanley@sinabhfuil That line is a very interesting and good example. I grew up next to it. We take that line for granted now but it erased a long stretch of coastline across South Dublin and ploughed through a lot more - could you do that now?
@sinabhfuil@skolima@karlstanley Aside: Railways then were symbolic of Imperialist Capitalism - the arteries of capital, and not as an enabling social good. So tearing through a neighbourhood was only for the good of the few. I wonder if that coloured the view of the early Irish State in how it saw railways.
Also: I grew up in a small flat in one of the biggest terraced old houses in Monkstown/Seapoint overlooking the railway and coast.
@kevinteljeur@skolima@karlstanley Well, yes, what was that remark of Todd Andrews' about the Harcourt Line being unnecessary because it was only for Rathmines Protestants, or something like that!
@sinabhfuil@skolima@karlstanley Ouch! The ‘housekeeper’ used to refer to tenements if there was ever any trouble or mess. I didn’t get it then but later on I understood better (it wasn’t a tenement, but a blood relative of them, let’s say)
@kevinteljeur@sinabhfuil@skolima@karlstanley I think it was more about saving money and the state seeing a modern nation as one of private vehicles myself. Plus control - very few women could drive for a v long time. I'd say there's a lot could be written about the Church raging about days out to towns being immoral and govt attitudes to public transport in Ireland.
@kevinteljeur@sinabhfuil@skolima that’s right, the most exclusive addresses in Dublin were Buckingham St and environs, near where I live now. I believe the 2 best houses in Dublin were Leinster House and Aldborough House (Portland Row) which is now vacant.
@sinabhfuil@karlstanley It often feels like party politics results in people doing the least amount they can in their term spending the entire time discussing how the alternative to them is worse.
I'm sick of voting for people who don't embody a coherent long term strategy, how on earth is changing government every few years the best we can come up with. I'd much prefer a single government where we vote to replace the people (who underperform) instead of the whole government and direction.
@ciaranmak@sinabhfuil@karlstanley it’s bad incentives like this that makes me think there should be at least one house chamber chosen by lot. In any country with parliamentary democracy, this is not country specific. #Sortition, in other words. Each person serves for 2-3 years, no repeats, replace the cohort on a rolling basis (not all at once). Could replace the upper house/senate, or be a third house providing checks and balances.
@Brendanjones@ciaranmak@sinabhfuil@karlstanley That's an interesting proposition! Ireland has done quite well out of it's various randomly-chosen Citizens' Assemblies. And the #Seanad is fundamentally undemocratic, especially given the refusal to legislate for the 7th amendment, which was passed by 92% of the voting population!
@sinabhfuil@Brendanjones@ciaranmak@karlstanley The amendment to extend voting for Seanad seats to the other 3rd-level colleges apart from NUI and TCD. Passed by 92% in 1979, never enacted in legislation. There are also several expert reports at this stage on Seanad reform containing what you'd expect - make it more democratic and accountable, for example - all just gathering dust on shelves.
@Tarbh@Brendanjones@ciaranmak@karlstanley Fuck that for a game of cowboys. I never graduated from any college - "graduates and politicians only" voting systems are just wrong
@sinabhfuil@Tarbh@Brendanjones@ciaranmak 💯 the Seanad is unfit as an institution - we’re lucky that there a a few really good Senators who do great advocacy work using their platform, but that’s despite the flawed institution, not because of it. Mostly it’s a warming oven for failed TDs.
@karlstanley@Tarbh@Brendanjones@ciaranmak Yes. It's a pity - an effective Upper House would be a good brake on the Dail's wilder forays; as it is now, it's undemocratic and full of failures and eccentrics
@sinabhfuil@Tarbh@Brendanjones@ciaranmak a Senator knocked on my door last year telling me they were my “local senator” getting to know the neighbourhood. Wrong door to try that on - I immediately clocked it as early campaigning for the TD job they actually wanted (they had previously been a councillor recently appointed to the senate by dint of party connections). Unbelievably grubby. A Senator canvassing door to door like an encyclopaedia salesman, talk about undignified.
@karlstanley@sinabhfuil@Tarbh@Brendanjones@ciaranmak Just got a flyer in the door from my local Fine Gael… senator? Like, doing pretend TD stuff, without being a TD. Will be sending it on to @electionlit for the collection as always. In D15 FG, FF, L, G, and even PBP have been on an semi-election footing for the past two years.
@kevinteljeur@sinabhfuil@Tarbh@Brendanjones@ciaranmak@electionlit we’re on the countdown all right. I don’t mind canvassers (I’m a chatty man, I love an oul’ chat on the doorstep) but this “I’m your local senator” nonsense made me a bit sick in my mouth. I don’t think the person in question has much chance of getting elected (Dublin Central = Group Of Death) but still and all, have a bit of respect for the office.
@karlstanley@sinabhfuil@Tarbh@Brendanjones@ciaranmak@electionlit Oh yes, and the ‘Fine Gael senator for Dublin West’ is no better, even if propped up by glossy fliers and photo opportunities. What concern of the senate is paid parking in the Phoenix Park? Or other hyper local issues?
@karlstanley One of the objections that the worried middle class make against bike lanes is "How will ambulances and fire brigade get to people if the ROAD IS BLOCKED BY A CYCLE LANE?" #CycleLanes#EmergencyVehicles
This is how
Add comment