The future of selfhosted services is going to be... Android?
Wait, what?
Think about it. At some point everyone has had an old phone lying around. They are designed to be constantly connected, constantly on... and even have a battery and potentially still a SIM card to survive power outages.
We just need to make it easy to create APK packaged servers that can avoid battery-optimization kills and automatically configure an outbound tunnel like ngrok, zerotrust, etc...
The goal: hosting services like #nextcloud, #syncthing, #mastodon!? should be as easy as installing an APK and leaving an old phone connected to a spare charger / outlet.
It would be tempting to have an optimized ROM, but if self-hosting is meant to become more commonplace, installing an APK should be all that's needed. #Android can do SSH, VPN and other tunnels without the need for root, so there should be no problem in using tunnels to publicly expose a phone/server in a secure manner.
In regards to the suitability of home-grade broadband, I believe that it should not be a huge problem at least in Europe where home connections are most often unmetered: "At the end of June 2021, 70.2% of EU homes were passed by either FTTP or cable DOCSIS
3.1 networks, i.e. those technologies currently capable of supporting gigabit speeds."
PS. syncthing actually already has an APK and is easy to use. Although I had to sort out some battery optimization stuff, it's a good example of what should become much more commonplace.
I was going to host pihole on an old android until I noticed it getting quite warm while continuously connected to power. Realised I didn’t know the lifespan of the battery and didn’t want it tp start a fire.
@Omniraptor ah yes! Probably that's why.
Actually the whole original post was sent via Mastodon.
I tend to write posts that I share to my Mastodon followers and then at the end I mention a Lemmy community if I believe the community would also find it interesting.
That is so cool I didn’t realize lemmy and mastodon were different views into the same database, assumed they were different services with no overlap except some underlying tech (I don’t know much about fediverse structure). But how does that work with like, character limits? Iirc lemmy can have much longer comments
@Omniraptor@Wander Probably user is limited during writing by own instance limit and longer posts of others could be displayed. I saw this between mastodon/misskey instances with various limits, probably it could be similar for lemmy/kbin federation. Currently I am writing this on small mastodon server with 20k limit (never used this fully yet....)
@Omniraptor in theory Mastodon will show a "read more" button for longer comments. Top level posts sent from Lemmy often require clicking the link to view them in full and content isn't ordered by votes because they don't exist.
So, it's a bit messy to read Lemmy from Mastodon, but posting something and then replying to comments on that thread is really easy.
I feel like Android is adding some new power saving “feature” with every version to kill all the useful stuff I want to keep running in the background.
Last stupid thing I remember was when it removed my CalDAV synchronisation because I haven’t been “using” the CalDAV app for some months.
Not to mention all the times it decides to kill something you want to use because it thinks the RAM would be more needed elsewhere. Honestly my 128 MB RAM Nokia N900 could run more apps at the same time than my 4 GB RAM Fairphone.
You’re right, that’s a feature if you’re a regular phone user and a bug if you want it as a server.
Also, even if the application is still running you can have the os almost fully shutdown even if it’s charging. Again, it’s a behavior tuned for a typical user.
Yeah, android is a lot like Windows in that they make choices that might benefit users who don’t know what’s going on but interrupts or harms things power users are doing. They are just better at not being as annoying with it and don’t beg people to use their default programs.
@Wander@selfhosted this whole “We are walking about with entirely reasonable servers in our pockets for reasonable scales - why doesn’t it feel like that?” thing is in my brain quite a bit.
@benjohn@selfhosted 6-8 GB of RAM with powerful CPU and GPU that was designed to run games and can in some cases run small AI models is nothing to scoff at imho.
@Wander@selfhosted Sounds like a great way to kill you phone's battery. But maybe if you created an ad-hoc stack... Have you ever heard of @veilidnetwork ?
The latest pixel devices (since 6 I think?) already provide accees to a /dev/kvm device, so maybe you could even run a normal Ubuntu server VM on your phone for hosting these services.
Hmm I think my main concern would be lack of kernel/firmware updates, running something like postmarketOS could partly solve that and still be nearly as easy to set up (just unlock and flash a prebuilt image)
But firmware is still almost entirely dependent on the vendor, since it’s all signed and unpatchable.
Next issue would be lack of connectivity on a lot of phones, which have gone backwards and include USB 2.0 now. WiFi is an option, but less stable, I personally decided to just go 100Mbps and suffer.
As for the battery, it would help a lot if phones were designed to boot without one and they were removable, it all worked well for about half a year until I found out I had a spicy pillow and had to replace it with direct power to the board, which made the whole setup much less elegant and required soldering.
It all comes down to how devices are designed in the end. If someone took the time to make a computer instead of just a phone, and included features that make it useful past its initial life that aren’t that popular (display output, microsd, headphone jack), mainlined all the drivers and maintained firmware, that would be a different story.
But that’s not a very profitable model, because it’s all about reducing waste and thus selling less. A lot needs to change.
Big problem: updates for something that is directly exposed to internet
Some low end devices will stop getting security updates 6 months after launch because the OEM launches a new model every two weeks and obviously doesn’t have resources to dedicate to it
In some cases, even high end devices don’t get updates and are discontinued internally shortly after launch, for example the Xiaomi mix 3 5g
Yes, root and custom ROMs could solve the problem, but not as easy as regular Linux where you just use a package manager to update. First issue is needing to wipe after updates and you have to reinstall and reconfigure everything
Pretty cool concept actually. upcycling old tech does seem to be a selfhosting hobby. I see a lot of criticism that I think doesn’t really see the value proposition. You should be able to root the device and install a new OS. I wonder how limited the bandwidth would be though, and whether it’d be worth the cost to get adapters, if they exist, to allow more throughput. I do like the concept though.
If I’m just using them as a glorified small Linux box it could work pretty well. If you’re going to host services that don’t require a ton of bandwidth you don’t need a hard line or anything. Hell my Plex server is using WiFi (802.11ax but still) and it delivers 4K just fine.
Shit, I run plex of my synology ds1621+ and it chokes on 4k regularly. This is with a cabled connection. It’s almost certainly the CPU though. These things are weak as hell. What’re you running plex on ?
Admittedly the server on which it’s running is pretty beefy and I don’t let it transcode. I’ve got enough disk space that if something spends time transcoding I just optimize it to a new version of the file.
By bandwidth I was speaking in terms of network only, but if you were to run it on a simple server that didn’t do any transcoding it might be ok.
Ah ok makes sense. Yeah it’s definitely not latency or throughput causing stuttering for me. Gonna definitely be the anemic CPU. Luckily I have an extra laptop that I haven’t used in years that would make a perfect addition to the homelab. Can just through linux on it and use it as a plex/roon server
Yeah my server is an i5 using an onboard GPU so it’s nothing crazy but it’s got 80TB of drive space, so I optimize for what I put my money into.
Hell, sometimes it’s even easier to copy the data to my gaming rig, transcode it, and rsync it back. If I’m done playing for the night and about to go to bed and I have like a TV show or something I know has to be transcoded, I’ll just queue up a job and let it run while I’m sleeping and script it so it rsyncs everything back when it’s done transcoding.
That’s definitely a good call. Before I even had a NAS, I’d just throw some movies and stuff on my macbook when I had to travel. Problem is that when you’re loading it up, you think you know what you’ll want to watch and then later you just wish you had different choices.
Just to clarify, the the whole point is that Android makes it easy for less tech oriented people to host small single user / family services.
It does not need to be perfect, have massive throughput or allow for massive amounts of read/write cycles.
If people can host their own media server like Jellyfin or note taking apps like Joplin instead of using commercial services by simply installing an APK on an old phone they can leave connected at home, that's already a big win.
Regarding device longevity, Android 13 apparently supports / will support full KVM emulation. Windows can be run if you have root while android based VMs are expected to be possible without the need for root. Since this type of virtualization allows VMs to run their own kernel, keeping the "server app" updated should allow the user to be protected even if the host OS is outdated as long as these server-app-VMs are trustworthy themselves.
@Wander@selfhosted digging into the updates or running linux instead of android that other comments are mentioning feels like missing the point a bit.
the accessibility that this would provide could easily surmount the hurdle that prevents most from being able to get off big central services. self hosting, or even any alternative that doesn't hold your hand 100% of the way (cough, mastodon) is beyond most people.
even if it's wrapped up nicely and not precisely long term, it would do a lot for the learned helplessness that big tech trains and to bridge that accessibility gap. even if the typical end user doesn't get that involved, it could be an easy way in to understand how you might manage your own data.
not like it's much less safe having a limited security patch lifespan than (insert big company data breach here) :vlpn_happy_blep:
it's kinda easy to overlook this in techy circles. it's why web 2.0 was able to reach most of the world, and why the old ways of building your site / hosting your services from scratch will always be limited in reach. most people just.. don't even know that's an option, never mind have the background to know where to begin.
unless you want to tell everyone to stop using the internet (fat chance), or continue to support the centralized corpo hellscape, we need easy ways for people to spin up their own digital infrastructure, and build platforms for themselves without a profit driven middleman.
/rant
sorry, this is a bit of a personal crusade to me, i love this idea :ms_awoo:
Regarding device longevity, Android 13 apparently supports / will support full KVM emulation. Windows can be run if you have root while android based VMs are expected to be possible without the need for root. Since this type of virtualization allows VMs to run their own kernel, keeping the “server app” updated should allow the user to be protected even if the host OS is outdated as long as these server-app-VMs are trustworthy themselves
You absolutely want to remove the batteries. Otherwise they would die of old age pretty soon and then it creates danger of fire. Either a new battery for your ‘server’ every 5 years, or some tinkering solution, maybe supercapacitors.
Then you need an OS with long term support/maintenance. Not stock Android, because it evolves away from old hardware too fast. Maybe something like Lineage.
One problem remains: I have serious doubts about the network interface, if it can handle high throughput or many connections, like a webserver for several users, or even torrenting. A NAS for 1 person seems very possible, though.
@Wander@selfhosted Unlikely, the biggest issue android devices have is hardware support due to the ARM CPU architecture. It's just not as useful as old x86 hardware, you're stuck with old outdated and vulnerable firmware. My opinion is that one of the selling points of ARM hardware for device vendors is it's relative impossibility to get open source driver support. You may see some use of Apple M1 and M2 simply because it's a smaller FOSS support target, but android devices vary too much.
I run 4 mail servers, 2 game servers, 3 directory/auth servers, a firewall/router, a NAS, a security system server, a media server, a monitoring server, and a couple others. Android ain’t gonna cut it.
Pass, I’ll take the cluster of raspberry pis for the same cost… For the purpose of self hosting my cluster is going to out perform your x86. Like why are you going to spend hundreds of dollars for an x86 that will do fine when you can spend $50 for a pi that will also do fine?
Then you can just cluster those pis and get redundancy
You’ve got it backwards, a small x86 box is more cost effective for better performance. With a raspberry pi you’re paying for the form factor (and often scarcity)
You can get a wyse thin client on eBay for $50, and if you’re clustering the pis it’s not $50 anymore, so you can get a real computer on woot in the $150 range.
Either of those options will run circles around a pi/pi cluster.
Insulting my reading ability and math skills would work better if you weren’t making a fool of yourself.
I gave you an example of a $50 x86 PC and mentioned the more expensive options because you brought up building a pi cluster in your first response to me, at which point you’re not talking about spending $50 anymore.
The main point is that either the thin client or the slightly more expensive computer will runs circles around your pi(s) for the same price.
Hey, that’s what I always end up thinking when I try to use a pi for anything.
But if you actually check the numbers, that has pretty similar specs to the Pi4 but supports virtualization and has more ram. And the wyse runs on a real hard drive instead of an SD card or some janky USB setup.
But if you actually check the numbers, that has pretty similar specs to the Pi4 but supports virtualization and has more ram. And the wyse runs on a real hard drive instead of an SD card or some janky USB setup.
But also general reply to that. Similar specs to the pi4, sure, but what about the 5 that is 3x as fast? It also has the same amount of RAM that the small 5 does. And by the way the link you posted, it runs off of an emmc drive… As in it’s effectively an SD card… Just, embedded. (Hence the “e”)
This isn’t even true. A Pi sells for 50$ yes, + USB cable for power + USB power adapter + case + whatever else money grab.
A second hand HP mini with an i5 7th gen CPU that is WAY faster comes with everything including 8 GB of RAM and 256GB of SSD (or better if you get a good deal) for around 80$. Tell me about your math again…
How’s the power consumption compare between two performance equivalent setups? (Genuine question, it’s something I’m trying to determine for my self-host use-cases).
My first RPi is for Joplin to replace OneNote. My current server runs 24/7 and costs about $1/day for power (it provides other services too). I haven’t calculated my Pi power consumption yet, but it’s running on a 2.5 watt power supply, vs my server 700 watt (of course, these are both peak measurements).
Given my self-host stuff will spend 99% of its time at idle, it seems like Pi has a massive advantage. But of course that all depends on how things are used and setup.
The raspberry pi, like all RISC chips, uses much less power.
In fact the super computer summit runs on powerpc64 which is a RISC chip, that’s a big reason why its power consumption for a super computer is so low.
I hadn’t considered the RISC angle. Does RISC consistently use less power than CISC at given operations levels (MFLOPS, for example), or is there another/better way to make a power-consumption vs operations/performance comparison?
I realize this is kind of esoteric for my use-cases, but it would be useful for making projections to see if spending X dollars on Y number of Pi’s recoups the investment over a given period, just in power consumption.
E.G. If I can reduce my power consumption by 70% by switching to 3 Rpis, then I can recoup their cost in 2-3 years. Since my server needs replacing anyway, this seems like a no-brainer.
Yeah, a second hand old as shit hp, that’ll die on you so quick. There’s a reason that hp is selling for so cheap. HP is garbage, unless you’re buying their actual servers…
Edit: also all the “cash grab” parts… you probably already have those parts just lying around doing nothing.
Yeah, a second hand old as shit hp, that’ll die on you so quick.
Not my experience. At all.
Edit: also all the “cash grab” parts… you probably already have those parts just lying around doing nothing.
Yes I sure have a proprietary adapter for their PCIe connector and a Pi case lying around. Just the case its about 30€ and suddenly it becomes as expensive as a second hand mini PC for 1/10 of the performance and reliability. See the problem now? Even with the power adapter, the RPI is picky and will require a decent thing that is usually more than your average smartphone.
This is self hosting… You’re telling me you or one of your friends don’t have a printer to print a case for less than a dollar? Shit, pay for shipping and I’ll send you a case.
PC for 1/10 of the performance and reliability.
That’s not my experience at all. I mean the other user already posted a PC you can buy for the same price as a pi. It’s about as good as a 4, the 5 is 3x that speed.
Who provides the software and firmware updates for my antique Samsung S4 and Galaxy young?
I hope you will give me some firmware for the old snapdragon.
Don’t forget the loads of Exynos CPUs and loads of GPUs from different vendors.
IMO, more like Linux. Android for such old devices is unmaintained, but if you’re able to run Linux on it you’ll still be able to apply kernel updates and security updates for software will continue to exist. Many things are opensource too and you should be able to recompile them on the android device to make it run.
@Wander@selfhosted This sort of setup is very attractive IMO because of the low power usage. Android phones use much less power than old PCs.
The main con I see is not having ethernet (maybe there's some sort of MicroUSB/USB-C to ethernet adapter, but I didn't look into it yet). That, and there being only one port.
@herzenschein@Wander@selfhosted with a cluster, even in WiFi you could mitigate some of those problems, but for home use clusters is potentially asking too much
The risk that @regalpotoo mentioned is still unmitigated though, single user instance or not. At worst, the personal data can be exfiltrated. At best, the server can be used as a part of a botnet. Even if the software (nextcloud) would be patched, that doesn’t help against exploits on a OS level.
Granted, one could run services inside a vpn and have some kind of preventive / monitoring controls, but you’re still need to implement some kind of defense in depth in order to protect it.
It is possible nowadays: I’m hosting quite a few services on an 5 years old Android. Just with Termux, no root required. Of course connectef it’s just to the internal network due to all the security concerns mentioned in the post.
To solve all the bandwidth/connection issues, I’ve bought a usbc-ethernet dongle that works like a charm.
To mitigate battery issues I’ve limited the charging to 85%.
I would never host Jellyfin there, but with webdav and Kodi I can get my media served easily to all my devices at home
It’s a really cool idea, and the internet would probably be a better place if more people took ownership of their infrastructure rather than relying on ad-supported “free” services, and it’s easy to criticise an approach that I’ve spent maybe 10 minutes actually thinking about - I’ve got my reservations, but if you can make it work it would be awesome
@ahoyboyhoy@selfhosted Nice. I remember trying it out once. Actually I might use that to follow my own advice and self-host at home once I retire my current phone.
True, I haven't had the need because I know how to run stuff on a server, but for personal files it's probably better to host things at home.
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