Something I've noticed a lot lately, is that especially Boomer women, but honestly, women in general, don't seem to ask for what they want or need in a direct way. I notice this a lot with my Mom and her friends. Instead of just asking for what they need directly they tell a story, to ask in a roundabout way. For instance, my Mom needed help this morning, and Instead of just saying, "Hey, I dropped my remote, can you pick it up for me?" She tells a one minute story about what happened, no ask, and eventually I get the point, and then suggest that I come pick it up. Or if one of her friends wants to do something like have a birthday party for a friend, they don't say "We should have a party!" They say, It's Sarah's Birthday coming up, you know she likes surprises, what does everyone think we should do?"
I often wonder if this is why older people think younger women are rude and demanding, because younger people often just ask for what they want and need in a more direct way. But also it's probably just straight up sexism, because men are supposed to make decisions, and women are supposed to make suggestions.
What do you all think? Is this just me? Have you experienced something similar?
@RickiTarr I’ve heard that there is “Ask Culture” and “Infer culture”. Infer culture is more common in the South, Ask culture is more common in the North.
In infer culture, you tell the story and infer what you want and the other person, being polite, infers the request and obliges, or doesn’t, in a way as not to give offense.
In Ask culture, you ask, and you are answered. Manners don’t come into it.
I was raised in Infer, but I’ve come to realize it’s healthier to ask.
@RickiTarr I try to be direct, but sometimes it’s hard, as I don’t want to upset or offend the other person. It can be hard to undo the programming of being polite and realize that most people don’t see being direct as rude.
@RickiTarr in some environments it’s not safe to openly have needs or “be a burden”. Live a whole childhood and young adult life with that type of external pressure and eventually you forget how to even express your needs. Or identify them when directly asked.
@RickiTarr There’s a great book aimed at helping women ask for better wages/jobs that I give to my women career coaching clients called, “Women Don’t Ask.” It demonstrates how not asking for a higher salary, as men so often do, plays out over decades. Women end up with significantly lower income simply because subsequent pay is based on original pay. The only way out is to quit that job and ask for much higher pay at the next job. Otherwise, you’ve set your baseline too low for future increases.
@KatM I literally had a friend just tell me this, that to get ahead you usually need to change jobs a few times. Hard work is rarely rewarded and generally exploited.
@RickiTarr@KatM In my IT jobs, a few times, I've seen a contract worker become a direct employee, or someone get promoted. But usually, the way to get a better job is to switch employers.
@RickiTarr Your friend is right, unless you really nailed it the first time and demanded pay equal to the highest paid man in the same role. Many women will take whatever they’re offered. Once you realize you’re underpaid, you either demand a raise or leave for better pay, otherwise you’ll never catch up. And it’s not like our COL is lower than men’s. It’s generally higher owing to pink tax and personal care. For example, our clothes and haircuts are more expensive.
@RickiTarr I am actively teaching my early teen kids to ask for what they want rather than have my try to guess.
I think there’s likely some sexism that leads to this but there is also the cultural “ask vs guess” phenomenon. Which drives me crazy. Isn’t it easier if we ask for things that we want? Hoping others catch the hint is madness to me!
@3janeTA@RickiTarr I'll +1 the cultural and familial influence here: I was brought up in a family where "children should be seen and not heard" meant asking for things directly was discouraged and it's still difficult
@RickiTarr i don't know if it's the case here but it a very common response to oppressive/repressive/abusive upbringings. if they don't actually ask the question they won't get in trouble for it. and it tends not to go away
@hosford42@RickiTarr@mensrea I was thinking about an oppressive, abusive upbringing and an inability to be direct. That being said, not being direct about everything, especially all of one's feelings with someone who may not be a safe person may save you from being hurt emotionally or physically. So it has its good points.
@MargaretSefton i'm not casting judgement on the behaviour, it can literally save lives in some cases. just saying that that sort of upbringing can cause it @hosford42@RickiTarr
@CuriousMagpie I've definitely pick some of it up from my Mom, but with my husband, subtleties don't work well, and that just led to frustration, so I've learned to be much more direct.
@CuriousMagpie@RickiTarr I'm a boomer but for me, it depends on the question being asked. I'll use the indirect method if I'm sounding out the other person to perhaps discover their enthusiasm for a proposal of some sort. Then, I go direct for questions like 'do you prefer this color or that one'. Sometimes people acquiesce to an answer when they actually aren't that keen on the idea.
@isotope239@CuriousMagpie I often think that empathetic, but shy people do this, because they want to treat people how they would like to be treated. So, they notice when someone seems to feel a bit ill at ease, because they've been there.
@RickiTarr@CuriousMagpie I think that's true, but indirect also works for stuff that's a bit tricky. For instance, I'm very fond of opera; not just the music but as performed on stage. I gave up on the better half coming along as loud snoring commences even before the first act is over! So, if I approach someone to come along with me, I'll sound them out first indirectly. 1/2
@RickiTarr@CuriousMagpie The tricky bit comes in with the perception of opera being considered high-brow, so declining might make you appear somehow less cultured (it doesn't, opera isn't everyone's cup of tea). 2/2
@RickiTarr@CuriousMagpie P.S. You don't have to be a culture vulture to enjoy opera. A few years ago the Santa Fe Opera had a very sexy young baritone as Don Giovanni and all the women were swooning. When the Commendatore showed up to throw the handsome devil into the pit of hell, we were all bereft! Even better, as the Commendatore thrust his arm forward to open the pit, there was a loud crack of lightning (the real thing, not special effects), just perfect!
@RickiTarr This is definitely a thing. I've noticed it most with my own mother, but also her sisters. Often it just comes in the form of detailing a story of whatever difficulty they are having, and the expectation is that the listener should volunteer to help.
@RickiTarr I did point it out to her once and told her that if she needs my help with something, she needs to just ask because I'm not good at picking up these sorts of social cues.
@hybridhavoc@RickiTarr In our home (M 62 F 69), this is more complicated. On one hand, yes, my wife falls into indirect communication instead of just asking, but that's usually when she's insecure about something in specific: eg, that I'm too busy with a work thing, or she's embarrassed because it's a task she feels like she should have been capable of doing herself.
On the other hand, she and other women have told me clearly that sometimes when they gripe, they just want to gripe, NOT have a man step in and "solve" the problem for them. My mom, suffering from dementia, nailed it: "oh, honey, haven't you figured this out yet? Sometimes, a woman just wants you to say, 'there, there.'"
Finally out can be cultural, too: when our daughter went to Turkey on a State Department exchange, they taught her that Turks culturally use VERY indirect communication, and after a year there, she confirmed it's true: a mom, wishing child 1 would study harder, might go on a long ramble about how she wishes child 2 (a straight A student) would study harder, in front of child 1.
@msbellows@hybridhavoc All great points, after having asked a lot of questions, what I've learned the most is that there is very rarely a single answer, and it definitely appears to be the case here.
@RickiTarr@hybridhavoc
A long time ago, I said to my wife (of 42 years) about presents for birthdays et cetera, "Look, if you want me to get you something, don't drop hints, I won't pick up on them. Just ask."
Took a while, it seems to be a learned behaviour, but it works fine. She doesn't get ticked off by not getting what she thought she was being obvious about, and we don't have the "why didn't you just say" conversation again.
@popey I try to be more direct now, but I've definitely done it, "Hey Honey, wouldn't it be nice to go to the beach this summer?" Instead of just saying I'd like to go to the beach, I'm already looking at rentals lol
@RickiTarr@popey Being autistic, I tend to take things literally, exactly as they're said, so this is particularly ineffective on me. It takes a lot of energy for me to stay vigilant and catch it, which wears me out. I think it's better for everyone when people feel comfortable being direct.
@RickiTarr oh good god i’m in the south and there’s certain social issues, there’s the shit ton of things that WON’T BE SAID OUT LOUD, you need to ‘infer’. not from here, on the spectrum so i’ve been here 25 years still being/feeling an outsider.
i straddle the line on boomer/genx and i remember the messages, don’t be demanding, think of the man, etc thanks my dump is over 😭 #autism
@RickiTarr huh. I think I ran into this more in my mother generation (born in 1913) than mine (prime boomer). But then I hung with a very demanding bunch of women! Also, I'm on the East Coast of the USA- NYC area- we're a loud, demanding, in your face, bunch.
@RickiTarr@blake I spoke to my Mum about this specifically (she was a psychotherapist, and we both noticed her doing exactly this kind of leading-you-to-understand-a-desire instead of asking).
She called out the explicit expectations of women & girls here in the UK in the 60s, that asking for something (esp. to men) was imposing upon them to meet that desire or be considered rude.
So women would ratchet demand down a notch: a request was a demand, a hint was a request.
@RickiTarr@blake I found and find it (with others) very challenging, as I feel like I have no way to suggest something I’m not particularly attached to, but might enjoy.
“We could go to the park?” is seen as a request (rather than a possibility) and others around me will drop their desires to meet that (perceived) request.
Untangling these situations (trying to have a voice but not an overpowering one) takes up a non-trivial amount of headspace. #FuckPatriarchy
@RickiTarr It drives me INSANE. Decoding what my wife actually wants consumes a large portion of my mental power almost every day. Doesn't help she's from a household where the father is a narcissist.
Woman I worked with would tell her boss about her terrible migraine and instead of going home to rest would end up sitting in a dark office doing nothing until the end of the day.
We were both lab managers- I’d sent him an email saying I’m sick I’ll probably be back tomorrow and just leave.
I have MS, am on SSDI now, at the time I had a letter from my doctor explaining I’d miss work due to flair ups on file, but it was honestly just personality difference.
@RickiTarr I read an article a while ago that said people tended to be either hinters or tellers.
Not sure it's a gendered quality, but maybe.
Tellers say what they want, need or think, while hinters come at it in a roundabout way.
The teller says "it's your turn to wash up", the hinter says, "we'll need those dishes soon".
I have often wondered if it is actually an indication of relative intelligence. Hinters, the more intelligent group, say the minimum needed, expecting a similar mind to be able to extrapolate everything it needs from that. Only, if that is true, surely they would be intelligent enough to adapt to the slow tellers?
I'm waaay down the teller end of the teller/hinters spectrum and my partner is waaay down the hinters end, and even after multiple decades it still leads to friction. Not the dishes, that was just an example, but in other areas for sure. "When should I pick you up?" "Well, I've got a meeting that starts at 11" Aaargh! :-)
@kauer@RickiTarr it’s also very much wrapped up in cultural norms. For instance, in polite Japanese society, you never outright ask for what you want. You always hint and imply.
@RickiTarr First off, the way you end the post does have a certain comedy to it in light of the subject matter.
Can't say my boomer mom communicates that way, but my partner and I are Gen X about a decade apart and I do see her do this a bit. Mostly in terms of less important courses of action, like going to dinner. I've had to learn that "So, what would you like to do about dinner?" actually means "I'd like to have dinner pretty soon."
@RickiTarr I'm a young enough Boomer to have grown up in a world where women almost had to be roundabout but then to have participated in burning bras and marching for women's rights as well as against Viet Nam, etc. I've always hung out with the women who were hippies/protesters and most of us became much mouthier, tho sometimes, not surprisingly, stuck in between those two worlds.
@RickiTarr When people are raised to believe they have no voices or that their opinions don’t matter, stuff like this happens.
My grandmother was like that, and even if we asked directly, she’d still respond in a roundabout way. I found out later that her upbringing had been pretty harsh and that the women of her generation were expected to be seen but not heard.
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