It’s an Absolutely Terrifying Night in Gaza Right Now

Some people, communicating via satellite phones, have described the attack as the “heaviest bombardment yet,” according to independent journalist Sharif Kouddous.

“People can’t call ambulances or civil defense. We are being bombed in an unprecedented manner,” said an unidentified journalist at a Gaza hospital, according to a translation by The Nation’s Palestinian correspondent, Mohammed El-Kurd. “The sky around us just lights up [with explosions], and no one knows what’s going on.”

ShroOmeric,

Israel is no better than Russia.

aniki,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Guydht,

    Ah yes because murdering millions of your own harmless citizens, who some served in your military is totally the same as fighting against a terror organization who massacred and pillaged your villages and keeps 200+ of your citizens captive.

    mwguy,

    Ahh but have you considered Jews! Checkmate!

    /s

    intensely_human,

    I think what we’re learning from this is that ghettos are a step on the path to genocide. That’s the link to Germany here. You put a subset of “your” people into a walled off place, at some point in the future unless you take down that wall and re-integrate those people, you’re gonna massacre them.

    Whether you think you’re capable of genocide or not, you are. We all are. And we need to be paying attention to the things that lead to it. And what this is demonstrating is that ghettos lead to genocide.

    time_lord,

    I think it’s the other way around. Israel put them in a gheto because they literally had no other way to protect their citizens. Now that the Palestinians have found a way around that, they’re back to killing the Israelis. And Israel is responding again.

    bamboo,

    That’s the same reasoning the Nazis used though. They said that Jews caused Germany to lose WW1, Jews caused the pain and suffering and instability of the German people. This was German land, not Jewish land, and so they had no choice but to lock up and exterminate the Jews for the safety and wellbeing of their own.

    It was bullshit then and it’s bullshit now.

    jarfil,

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Reinhard

    Nazis didn’t even “want” to exterminate the Jews… Gypsies yes, they shot those on sight, just like cripples… but all those Jews, Poles, Gays and similar, they “only” wanted to ship them all to Egypt or wherever in Africa… but those pesky Allies thwarted their plans, so “what were they supposed to do”. 🙄

    And look, Egypt is again refusing to let the “undesirables” in, only this time it’s the Palestinians… and the ones pushing them out are the Israelis. 😒

    Wonder what will the books end up calling this “operation”.

    Guydht,

    subset of “your” people

    No Palestinian, or Gazan ever thought of themselves as Israeli, and neither did Israel think of them as their own. The situation of Gazans is terrible, but again - they’re not part of Israel, and are never intending to be. That’s so different from Nazi Germany that it’s just insane to compare the two.

    Stop thinking of the Holocaust as a genocide. It’s so much more. It’s blatant racism, and a well tuned death machine. Something Israel both aren’t doing now, and didn’t do ever. Israel is only fighting for the good of its own people, and no one in the world can blame them, since every other single nation would’ve done the same. (Btw, same as Egypt who are doing what’s best for their people by not letting Gazans immigrate)

    SCB,

    I hope when you realize what a batshit insane take this is, you feel bad enough to actually own it and grow as a person

    ShroOmeric,

    Whatever helps you and your coscience sleep my dear.

    SCB,

    Living in reality does indeed help me sleep like a baby.

    I’ve bookmarked the page. See you in January.

    ShroOmeric,

    ?!? Are you ok?

    SCB,

    Yeah I’m having an awesome day.

    Do you mean the bookmarking thing? Took 2 seconds. Didn’t even have to put down my coffee

    ShroOmeric,

    Mate, what the hell are you talkiing about? What are bookmarking for January? Come back to this world for a second maybe?!

    Redrum714,

    They’re not wrong. That is a braindead comparison

    ShroOmeric,

    Good argument. You were the first of you class I suppose.

    Redrum714,

    Nope just not stupid enough to compare a religious war with a non religious war.

    ShroOmeric,

    That’s embarassing. I know 14yo who have a better understanding of the situation. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

    Redrum714,

    One is a religious war and the other is not, that’s not an opinion, just a basic fact of reality. No idea how delusional you have to be to not comprehend that.

    ShroOmeric,

    You’ll grow up one day.

    bh64,

    but you’re stupid enough that you can’t tell that religion is nothing more than masquerading power over the masses with the promise of a paradise.

    Religion is just politics but in the name of a not existent god so the ones in power need no justification of their actions other than “it’s God’s will”.

    filister,

    If not worse

    wurzelgummidge,

    Much as I loathe Putin, he has yet to do anything this savage.

    LoafyLemon,
    LoafyLemon avatar

    Invading a sovereign nation, killing innocents, bombing schools, hospitals, residential areas, forcefully relocating people, land grabbing, spreading dehumanizing propaganda, threatening to use nukes...

    It is exactly the same thing what both Hamas and Israel have been doing.

    SCB,

    First paragraph yes, concluding sentence no

    intensely_human,

    And using enslaved (oops sorry “conscripted”) soldiers to do it!

    mwguy,

    Haven’t seen the results of Russia’s artillery barrages in cities like Bahkmut? A similar barrages I’m Gaza would flatten every building.

    SirToxicAvenger,

    eh, they havent threatened to nuke anyone… cant really say that about Russia

    hassanmckusick,

    MAD isn’t a threat? I thought that was the whole point

    SirToxicAvenger,

    when did Israel do something like this, hmm?

    Phanlix,

    Almost as bad as pursuing Ethnic Bioweapons research in the late 90s. As in designing diseases to wipe out people of specific ethnicity.

    zephyreks,

    Israel is worse than Russia. Russia, in contrast, looks downright reasonable.

    In a few weeks, Israel has killed almost as many civilians as those that have died on both sides over the course of almost two years of the Russia-Ukraine war.

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    .ca never fails to come up with the worst dogshit opinions.

    mojo,

    Instead of being dismissive, why are they wrong?

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    I will continue to be dismissive

    mojo,

    So… you can’t explain why they’re wrong then? That just makes you look like an idiot.

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    That is the conclusion you seem to have jumped to.

    intensely_human,

    Me too!

    mojo,

    Alright you’re just dumb lol, you can’t even explain why you’re insulting people.

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    Thank you for your attention

    SCB,

    Everything any of these leftist fucks say is always wrong. It’s impossible to quantify it all in one post, but here’s the broad strokes.

    1. Hamas is a terror organization who steals from, tortures, and oppresses their own people. Hamas seeks to maximize civilian casualties however possible.

    2: Israel is not committing (or even attempting) genocide. This one’s especially bad because you’d have to be pants-on-head stupid to believe it. It’s just pure, distilled, antisemitism.

    3: Palestine isn’t a country, was never a country, and only Israel has ever been interested in making them a country.

    4: Russia and Israel are operating at exact opposite purposes. Russia is trying to rekindle the Russian Empire. Israel is just trying to not suffer genocide against a foreign regime that literally calls for genocide of Jews worldwide. When I say literally, I mean they literally put out a call to action after their attack for Jews to be attacked worldwide, prior to any Israeli military response.

    5: Israel is acting with severe restraint compared to what the US would do if a foreign nation invaded and murdered 45,000 people in their homes. Adjusted for population size, that’s what the comparable death toll would be in the US. We’d absolutely fucking level any country that did that. We fought WW2 over less. We fought Iraq and Iran over less than 10% of that

    It’s hard to call out specifics when every single thing every one of these people say is wrong.

    TheBeege,

    You haven’t read about the founding of modern Israel and the history of Zionism. Please do

    (Before accusing me if being pro-terrorist, pro-Hamas whatever, know that I consider both entities unnecessarily violent and evil. But it is important to know why they are that way)

    SCB,

    I am well aware of the history thanks.

    zephyreks,

    Numbers don’t lie.

    Neither Ukraine nor Russia come even close to as bloodthirsty for civilian lives as Israel. Israel is killing civilians and killing Hamas fighters as collateral damage. Ukraine and Russia are killing each other’s soldiers and killing civilians as collateral damage. They’re not the same.

    anteaters,

    Numbers don’t lie.

    He says, using Hamas fantasy numbers.

    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    SCB,

    Fun fact about the UN, is that the Arab League has massive voting power due to “one nation one vote.” That’s how UNRWA got so corrupted.

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    Numbers in fact do lie. Any knowledge of statistics 101 basic-ass shit sort of proves this

    zephyreks,

    Tell me you don’t have a degree without telling me you don’t have a degree

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    5 days for a comeback that weak?

    You should’ve left me crying after cooking up a little something for that long.

    zephyreks,

    I mean, sounds like your most advanced exposure to statistics was “this is a joint probability”

    Take a more advanced stats course. It’s really insightful and will open your mind.

    SCB,

    They haven’t taken stats 101 yet

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    I think this is likely correct. Lemmy’s users skew very young. It explains a lot about what opinions, sentiments and views are and are not popular around here. Obviously there are some oldsters like myself, but I think we’re more the exception rather than the rule.

    SCB,

    That is continually changing as people find the site.

    Early adoption sites are always full of young people and extremists early on.

    AlmightySnoo,
    @AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world avatar

    zephyreks is a !worldnews mod who is banning people there for “orientalism” when they criticize the CCP (you can check their modlog), also it’s the same instance where admins haven’t banned a lead Lemmy dev when he repeatedly said that “all Israeli citizens are valid targets” and they merely deleted his comments way after they came under fire but until now they are still working with him. It should be clear by now that most “we’re just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don’t like Hamas” people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism, which is also why they usually share sketchy pro-Hamas sources. They’ll concern-troll about the victims in Gaza but in reality all that matters to them is that the US and one of its most important allies get hurt, because, you know, it helps advance their anti-capitalistic “cause”, and for the most antisemitic of them they’ll also rejoice at some Jewish deaths.

    Kedly,

    I mean, its not that hard to find both Isreal AND Hamas’s actions atrocious. What happened on the terrorist attack was horrifying and disgusting, and so is how Isreal is “Responding” (In quotes because while the severity has ramped up, this isnt exactly new behavior towards Gaza). I hate the Tankies here too, but thats not a Tankie only stance

    zephyreks,

    My modlog hasn’t banned anyone lmao go bark up another tree

    assassin_aragorn,

    It should be clear by now that most “we’re just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don’t like Hamas” people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism

    I disagree here. There’s plenty of people genuinely horrified by the civilians killed by both sides.

    jarfil,

    Ukraine is way larger than Gaza, the EU has let millions of refugees in… and still Russia has leveled several Ukrainian cities to the ground, with soldiers shooting random civilians on the streets.

    Right now, Russia is like Israel and Hamas put together, the only reason they’ve killed fewer civilians, is they couldn’t find more.

    zephyreks,

    The casualty ratios are way off. Try again.

    jarfil,

    Try again what, explaining why the casualty ratios are way different? I wouldn’t want to repeat myself.

    zephyreks,

    Russia is known to use spotters to confirm military targets before striking in civilian areas: aljazeera.com/…/ukraine-says-suspect-directed-rus…

    That’s why Russia has disproportionately fewer civilian casualties relative to military ones.

    qnick,
    @qnick@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s interesting considering that Hamas is one of the closest allies of the Kremlin.

    ShroOmeric,

    Maybe take a look at the agreements between Russia and Israel about Sirya. Welcome to the real world btw.

    Why9,

    You know as well as anyone that this has NOTHING to do with Hamas.

    Their strategy of indiscriminate bombing would not be the answer if they wanted to kill Hamas only. There’s absolutely no regard for civilians here. They’re not destroying Hamas. They’re eradicating the population of Palestine. Anyone who lives will rightly join Hamas and after this, honestly I can see why.

    assassin_aragorn,

    Hamas is part of the problem. Arab countries have confirmed that Hamas is stockpiling food and water and medicine for themselves.

    They don’t care about the Palestinians. If they did, those goods would be distributed.

    trash80,

    You know as well as anyone that this has NOTHING to do with Hamas.

    Anyone who lives will rightly join Hamas and after this, honestly I can see why.

    🤔

    Why9,

    You seem to be confused. I’ll help you understand. It’s a matter of perspective:

    For Israel, this ‘invasion’ has nothing to do with Hamas. They were just waiting for a reason to seize more land, and this was the perfect opportunity to get the international community behind them. War crime upon war crime under the pretext of defense. Calls for a ceasefire will be ignored because this is their best chance in decades to take a sizeable chunk of Gaza.

    For Hamas, the constant, near century-long murdering of innocent men, women and children is causing the survivors of those attacks to take up arms in anger and fight back. They’re not getting a proper education. A Palestinian child born in the early 2000s has already survived 5 wars by now. Hamas is their only vocation. Yes, they’re terrorists to us (sitting in our armchairs and engaging in backseat politics from the comfort of our homes), but not to the Palestinian people who seem to be “shielding” them. No one in Palestine is blind to the real terrorists, i.e. Israel.

    This is a land grab pure and simple, and Israel is prepared to dig deep.

    trash80,

    Thanks for explaining. I thought you were saying that Hamas isn’t involved in the conflict, but you meant that Israel’s real purpose for invading Gaza is not to stomp out Hamas. Correct me if I am wrong.

    Why9,

    but you meant that Israel’s real purpose for invading Gaza is not to stomp out Hamas.

    I mean, kind of?

    The ultimate goal is to have all of Palestine become Israel, and have no more Palestinians live here - have them die, resettle in Egypt, or have other Arabian or European nations take in the refugees. They don’t want Palestinians sharing the land, when in reality the Palestinians were forced to share their land with Israel. After this they would have a complete patch of land (formerly the whole of Palestine) belong entirely to them. That’s the goal.

    Hamas is Netenyahu’s greatest gift from Palestine. If Palestine never retaliated, no one would ever be able to justify Israel’s terrorism (raiding innocent settlements, evicting people who have lived there for 10+ generations, saying “well if I don’t steal your home, someone else will”). With Hamas as a retaliatory force, they’ve been able to convince the world through incendiary and dehumanising language that Hamas are terrorists. IDF’s recent actions have been deemed “acceptable” by the world because they are retaliating and defending themselves from a Hamas attack, not taking into account that the Hamas attack itself was a retaliation for years upon years of Israeli attacks.

    When Hamas retaliates, they can use this brand of excessive force, where they bomb entire neighborhoods for the possibility of killing some Hamas members. Somehow the world is watching on - America says Israel is allowed to continue to defend itself, when that’s clearly far beyond what they’re doing now.

    If some Hamas soldiers die in the process, then so be it! Israel definitely does not want to eliminate all of Hamas until they have all of Palestine though, since they need an enemy to make their war legit, but at the same time, it’s impossible to eliminate Hamas without Palestine, because Hamas is comprised of untrained, uneducated kids who have seen nothing but war since they were children.

    time_lord,

    not taking into account that the Hamas attack itself was a retaliation for years upon years of Israeli attacks.

    Why was Israel attacking the Palestinians? Because the Palestinians were attacking the Israelis, starting with the creation of Israel by the British.

    wewbull,

    Israel was created by UN resolution 181, not the British.

    jarfil,

    Israel was created by UN resolution 181

    This one?

    britannica.com/…/United-Nations-Resolution-181

    https://cdn.britannica.com/55/3355-050-C17CAACC/UN-partition-plan-Palestine-1947.jpg

    trash80,

    Thank you for taking time to educate me.

    Barbarian,
    @Barbarian@sh.itjust.works avatar

    The Netanyahu government is currently doing an excellent job recruiting for Hamas.

    SCB,

    Hamas as an organization will no longer exist. The Israeli government has been exceptionally and adamantly clear about that

    Lobotomie,

    Yeah, like taliban?

    SCB,

    I wish the US could’ve penned the Taliban in the way Hamas is penned in.

    Man what an absolute slam dunk no-downsides thing that would have been.

    Does this mean you strongly support this action, since these groups are roughly equal?

    Locuralacura,

    US can’t win a war and neither can Israel.

    SCB,

    Lmao.

    Lobotomie,

    Violence is never solved with more Violence.

    rengoku2,

    Bullshit. You are here existing because of World Wars.

    SCB,

    That is, in fact, the only way to stop an ongoing violent act.

    intensely_human,

    You’re both right.

    What works is retaliating against the person or group that attacked you.

    What doesn’t work, and makes things worse, is “retaliating” against innocent people who didn’t attack you.

    Threeme2189,

    So Hamas shouldn’t have retaliated against (murdered and kidnapped) innocent people who didn’t attack them (babies, the elderly and other Israeli citizens). Did I get it right?

    DrVerlocher,

    But Israel is not just randomly bombing Gaza? Hamas uses the Gaza People as a meat shield. They have taken all of Gaza hostage.

    Should Israel just let themselves get bombed by those degenerate Terrorists without attacking themselves, because Hamas has a meat shield?

    Honestly, Israel could just glass the Gaza Strip in a few days. Instead, they target specific buildings and points, even “knocking” before blowing it up, so civilians (and the terrorists) can escape. It is tragic that there are civilian casualties, but it cannot be completely avoided in this specific circumstances. Hamas desperately has their launch sites near hospitals and schools and playing fields.

    ricdeh,
    @ricdeh@lemmy.world avatar

    What you are getting wrong is that they ARE “glassing” the entirety of Gaza, with almost no restraint. That is not excusable, no matter which enemy you are fighting. The thing is, they won’t be able to kill Hamas either way, it’s only a choice between less Palestinian civilian casualties and more of them

    SCB,

    What you are getting wrong is that they ARE “glassing” the entirety of Gaza, with almost no restraint.

    Bold claims require strong evidence.

    jarfil,

    Turn on your TV, wait for a “before vs. after” segment.

    SCB,

    So you don’t know what glassing means?

    Maggoty,

    They are a professional army assaulting the most densely populated area in the world. Not letting refugees pass through their lines is already a war crime. Instead they seem to be compressing the population more and blaming Hamas for having the gall to fight at all.

    You don’t get to accuse the other side of using human shields as you kettle more civilians in with them.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Where is the evidence that they are not just randomly bombing? Knocking? Do they send a telegram?

    SCB,

    They actually used the app Telegram, as well as flyers, localized broadcasts, and even direct phone calls.

    Unfortunately Hamas is killing Palestinian civilians who head south, to scare them into remaining in the combat zone, because Hamas does not value human life at all

    intensely_human,

    Where did you hear of Hamas killing civilians who go south?

    SCB,

    twitter.com/manniefabian/…/1717466462854488555?t=…

    Barbarian,
    @Barbarian@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Yes, I’m sure telegram messages and phone calls are very effective days after they shut off electricity.

    jarfil, (edited )

    This has been going on for 3 weeks already, they did do the “knocking” and warning for at least the first couple weeks. Phones have been working, on external batteries recharged from generators, up until this weekend.

    SCB,

    Did you not hear the message of the IDF guy calling people in Gaza, and the Gazans saying Hamas will kill him if he leaves?

    Here: twitter.com/manniefabian/…/1717466462854488555?t=…

    Karyoplasma,

    They first launch a smaller rocket to “warn” residents to evacuate the premises before the big boy rockets lights up the place and called that “roof knocking”. I’m not kidding, that was their actual policy before this.

    toallpointswest,
    @toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

    @Karyoplasma @TinyPizza Yeah they knock on the roof of an entire building before they blow up everything and everyone in it.

    That's that's a joke, that's fucking vile. The fact they're blowing up the entire building is the fucking problem

    Viking_Hippie,

    they target specific buildings and points, even “knocking” before blowing it up, so civilians (and the terrorists) can escape.

    Nope. That’s just not true.

    masquenox,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Squizzy,

    Evil cunts are hypocrites?? What? Omg

    They support Hamas to keep attention off the Ukrainian invasion.

    Israel invade Palestine just as Russia do Ukraine…but somehow more inhumanely

    veganpizza69,
    @veganpizza69@lemmy.world avatar

    Behavioral/policy similarity doesn’t necessarily imply an alliance or partnership compatibility.

    rdri,

    Except that Ukraine attacking Russia was a lie. Russia and hamas are aggressors.

    rckclmbr,

    I got temp banned from lemmy.ml for saying that. Basically said “except Ukraine didn’t attack Russia first”, then got the banhammer. A quick Google on their point (cant even remember what it was) and I knew it was bullshit. I blocked lemmy.ml right after

    Lemminary,

    Yeah, it gradually became a tankie instance :/

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    I mean they took .ml because it’s short for marxist-leninist. They’ve always been as bad as grad

    Lemminary,

    Ahh, didn’t know that. Interesting tidbit of true, thanks.

    masquenox,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    ShroOmeric,

    Ukraine attacking Russia was a lie, Israel ethnic cleansing Palestine is reality.

    rdri,

    If you say so. Still it didn’t worth it to plan and perform that October 7th aggression. To think how much time and resources that required and how much stuff could be done instead to actually improve the lives of Palestinians, it’s sad and should be embarrassing.

    intensely_human,

    Hamas obviously doesn’t give the slightest fuck about Palestinians’ wellbeing.

    rdri,

    And that’s their main problem. You can’t be responsible government if you don’t care about your citizens. You can’t rely on the rest of the world to save your citizens while you continue aggression.

    SasquatchBanana,

    Right? If they cared they wouldn’t have attacked.

    The median age of Palestinians is 18 which means more than half weren’t alive for the vote of Hamas. Now, Hamas has dismantled any democracy so they can’t even take a diplomatic route. And Israel keeps bombing them making sure they continue the system of oppression which in turn spawns more radicals.

    masquenox,

    Oh, look… more white supremacists blaming the colonized for their own genocidal colonization.

    Smk,

    Israel are white ?

    masquenox,

    Gee, I wonder what this reminds me of?

    It’s almost like it reminds me of some other fundamentally white supremacist country I can’t quite put my finger on right now.

    Don’t help me… it’s on the tip of my tongue!

    Smk,

    What are you talking about ???

    masquenox, (edited )

    Yeah… imagine if Jewish people spent their energy appeasing Nazis instead of doing the “Jewish Bolshevism” which forced those poor white supremacists to go on a genocidal rampage - tsk, tsk.

    (/s - for the people on here that aren’t rabid white supremacists like the one I’m responding to)

    ShroOmeric,

    Well you could say that with the money Israel is burning for the terrorist action these days it could have found a way to keep its citizens alive… and still here we are.

    These kind of arguments don’t really help do much progress, do they?

    Potatofish,

    You made a false comparison. This is the result.

    ShroOmeric,

    The only result is that I lost you half way.

    Potatofish,

    Wut

    rdri,

    You can’t imagine how much money were burned on iron dome alone. All to save lives and try to show terrorists they should do something else with their lives.

    ShroOmeric,

    And yet…

    frederick,

    The sad news in reality is more people and more and more get killed every hour. I just can’t watch it anymore.

    rengoku2,

    I just ate breakfast and watched the news. It is easy.

    masquenox,

    Bullcrap. Israel has been invading Palestine since 1949.

    rdri,

    Invading unprovoked?

    masquenox,

    There is such a thing as “provoked” white supremacist settler-colonialism?

    mlg,
    @mlg@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean… yeah if you count back to the time after Hamas’s creation.

    why do you think Hamas exists at all lol?

    rdri,

    It doesn’t matter as long as their are not doing what is better for them, or Palestinians. Spoiler: attacking Israel like they did on October 7th was not going to do any good.

    hitmyspot,

    Attacking Palestinians now will not do any good. Hamas is not good and committed a terrorist act. An atrocity. Hundreds injured and dead.

    Palestine has 7000 dead including 3000 children from just this month. More children dead than any entire year of any other war of the last 3 years, including Ukraine.

    There are over a hundred times as many dead Palestinian kids as Israeli. We should mourn both, but we should keep in contact the numbers too.

    rdri,

    Attacking Palestinians now will not do any good.

    Attacking hamas will. It was done before and it helped with stopping attacks, for a while but still.

    Palestine has 7000 dead including 3000 children from just this month.

    That information comes from hamas. Terrorists should not be trusted. It’s enough to know that there are casualties. Even one death is a tragedy.

    And no, these are not exactly comparable. Russia has no good reasons to invade Ukraine. Israel has good reasons to invade Gaza.

    hitmyspot,

    Attacking Hamas is not happening, but nobody denies that attacking Hamas is justified. Attacking Palestinians in general as an alternative in the hope that some of Hamas is swept up is a war crime.

    That information comes from the Palestinians health authority which is considered pretty accurate. Every death is a tragedy, yes, so 3000 kids tragedies is 100 times the tragedies of the 30.

    Israel does not have good reason to “invade” Gaza. They are using terrorist attacks to justice genocide. Genocide is never justified.

    rdri,

    I don’t think your assumption that Israel can only “attack Palestinians in hopes to harm hamas” is correct. They wouldn’t warn anyone otherwise and we know they did that a lot of times. Also their counter strikes would’ve been much more effective if they wouldn’t do that.

    There are no authorities in Gaza except hamas. Gaza is fully controlled by terrorists. If there would be such an authority I’m sure they wouldn’t allow building military objects under hospitals.

    They are using terrorist attacks to justice genocide.

    Think you mistyped “justify”. Israel doesn’t need to justify defending from terrorists. Hamas, on the other hand, has a record of using Palestinians as a shield and not caring to protect them at all.

    hitmyspot,

    Hamas using them as a shield does not make killing them right.

    Israel is not defending itself from terrorism. It is retaliation for a terrorist attack.

    They do have some intelligence as to where Hamas use as locations etc however rules of war require they take precautions to minimise civilian casualties. They give some warnings as this gives plausible deniability that they are taking precautions. The number of dead civilians versus confirmed Hamas killed tells a different story. Telling people to leave but closing the border tells a different story. Telly people to leave one area then bombing the path they were told to take tells a different story.

    Hamas is the de facto government, but Palestine is not recognized as a state so there is not really a government, as most in other countries would know it, especially western counyries. Guess who is preventing normalisation of their sovereignty? Last elections were 17 years ago. The youngest people to vote are now over 35. 50% of the population is under 18. So, the legitimacy of saying they voted for this is spurious at best. Remember Israel and netamyahu in particular stifled their competitors.

    Incessant bombing of civilians is creating more terrorists, not less. That doesn’t make it right, but to make out like Israel is defending itself while killing thousands of children is ridiculous. Israel as a state is a de facto terrorist state too at this point

    rdri,

    Hamas using them as a shield does not make killing them right.

    It makes hamas responsible for their death. Otherwise, you are suggesting leaving alone terrorists who asked you to not bomb them, and who will still proceed to bomb you.

    Israel is not defending itself from terrorism. It is retaliation for a terrorist attack.

    Hamas launched rockets regularly. And you’re saying Israel only now started to retaliate? They must be very lazy, yes? Or maybe it’s because they have been shown they had to do it, as defending-only way no longer works.

    They give some warnings as this gives plausible deniability that they are taking precautions.

    Wow, people do what they have to do and you are saying they are doing it with malicious intention.

    The number of dead civilians versus confirmed Hamas killed tells a different story.

    What versus what exactly? One side is Israel who is monitored by the whole world, and the other is a territory controlled by terrorists. Numbers coming from the latter are useless without further confirmations.

    Telling people to leave but closing the border tells a different story.

    Did Israel close the border? I know Egypt did. Can’t blame Israel if they did so.

    Telly people to leave one area then bombing the path they were told to take tells a different story.

    Proceed to demand explanation if you like. I doubt they would waste resources to do something that useless.

    Hamas is the de facto government, but Palestine is not recognized as a state so there is not really a government, as most in other countries would know it, especially western counyries. Guess who is preventing normalisation of their sovereignty?

    If they really wanted to become a proper country with proper government they would at least try. Instead they are focused on trying to do the impossible - winning the war versus Israel, using stones and sticks.

    Last elections were 17 years ago. The youngest people to vote are now over 35. 50% of the population is under 18. So, the legitimacy of saying they voted for this is spurious at best.

    Those are useless details that can’t justify anything.

    Remember Israel and netamyahu in particular stifled their competitors.

    Irrelevant. You are proposing basically that hamas is the best Palestinians can get, and I strongly disagree.

    Incessant bombing of civilians is creating more terrorists, not less. That doesn’t make it right, but to make out like Israel is defending itself while killing thousands of children is ridiculous. Israel as a state is a de facto terrorist state too at this point

    • this is not what Israel wants or tries to do.
    • hamas created situations where civillians are located near places they launch rockets from.
    • hamas also created situation where Palestinians are not protected at all from any (counter)attacks. They say this is a responsibility of others which is ridiculous.
    • hamas can stop the whole thing by surrendering.
    hitmyspot,

    Israel is responsible for the Palestinians dead, not Hamas. The question is whether they are justified in killing the Palestinians. It is a war crime to kill indiscriminately without care to avoid civilian casualties. That’s why I mention about the performative warnings. They are not genuine nor helpful.

    Hamas launched rockets for years. Israel kicked Palestinians out of settlements and killed them for years. Again, one side being terrible doesn’t make the other good. Look at the statistics of how many Israel is died versus how many Palestinians. Your logic that Israel has a right to defend itself goes both ways.

    Yes Israel closed the border. And cut off supplies of food water and medical supplies. Thousands of children are being treated in hospitals for burns covering over 40% of their bodies with no available general anesthesia. That is cruelty and inhumane.

    I agree, Palestinians can do better than Hamas. Guess who stifled funding for their competition? Israel, or more specifically, Netamyahu. There has been calls for a Palestine state for decades, including negotiations with USA helping intervene. They were abandoned due to both sides not budging. Again, no good side, just bad on both, with innocent people dying in the meantime.

    You say that Hamas is the government then ignore the problems with legitimacy of Hamas. You ignore that the Palestinians want to be a state but most other countries refuse to recognize it. They already consider themselves a state. Youre not following logic or using similar metrics for each side, so I’m going to leave it here. I hope you continue to learn more as you seem to be arguing from a place of propaganda rather than facts. We are all susceptible to propaganda, so that’s not a dig at you but I thought worth pointing out.

    rdri,

    Israel is responsible for the Palestinians dead, not Hamas.

    And there is a chance Israel will be held responsible for this, as it should work. It won’t work like that with hamas, and this is wrong.

    The question is whether they are justified in killing the Palestinians.

    I don’t think it works like that. They are justified in defending against and trying to prevent terrorists attacks. History shows it is somewhat effective. What hamas does though, is shown as not effective, from what I understand. Therefore it can’t be justified.

    It is a war crime to kill indiscriminately without care to avoid civilian casualties.

    It’s not Israel’s actions but hamas’ actions and attitude that makes you think what’s happening can be called “killing indiscriminately”. Usually when you are at war you try to protect your citizens and keep them away from any war actions. It goes without saying that it doesn’t how hamas sees the world. They think they can spend zero resources on protection and use collateral damage as a weapon by saying “hey look how many of us they killed, it’s unfair because we killed less”. This logic is flawed. If they could they’d kill many more. If they could they’d kill every single jew - that’s what they publicly declared in their manifest basically. Israel is much different from that and we can’t assume they’d kill every Palestinian if they could.

    Again, one side being terrible doesn’t make the other good. Look at the statistics of how many Israel is died versus how many Palestinians. Your logic that Israel has a right to defend itself goes both ways.

    See above where I explained the difference in deaths and why it’s only natural. Hamas does not defend itself, it only uses hostages as live shields. Also tunnels. Tunnels under hospitals too, probably.

    Yes Israel closed the border. And cut off supplies of food water and medical supplies. Thousands of children are being treated in hospitals for burns covering over 40% of their bodies with no available general anesthesia.

    It should not be the responsibility of Israel to provide resources to Gaza if Gaza did nothing to try to become independent. Yes, this can be judged and I’ll let all responsible people and representatives to do the judgement. But hamas produced rockets, not anesthesia. This is cruelty and inhumane.

    Guess who stifled funding for their competition? Israel, or more specifically, Netamyahu. There has been calls for a Palestine state for decades, including negotiations with USA helping intervene. They were abandoned due to both sides not budging.

    You can’t blame one person for a failure of the whole state to become a proper country. If it takes that little to do so much then Palestine is in no shape to do anything and they must improve their situation first.

    You say that Hamas is the government then ignore the problems with legitimacy of Hamas. You ignore that the Palestinians want to be a state but most other countries refuse to recognize it.

    Figure out why then try to fix it?

    They already consider themselves a state.

    With how reliant they are on the rest of the world, I doubt this consideration can be viewed seriously by anyone.

    Youre not following logic or using similar metrics for each side

    I mean, one side is a country with relatively serious army and the other one is controlled by terrorists who declare they will rid the world of a whole nation, build nothing but missiles and tunnels, use hostages and demand the whole world to fund and protect them. Metrics are different, yes. Maybe if hamas starts doing something logical we’ll talk.

    Maggoty,

    I take it you think this “war” started when Hamas attacked them this year?

    Israel has been occupying Palestine for decades.

    rdri,

    Aggression. Aggression that showed Israel’s way of defense can no longer work and that terrorists won’t stop.

    As for the occupation, there is no use in arguing because the bigger issue is logic. It was obvious from the start that this action would not have chances to bring any good end to the situation for Palestinians. No matter what real or fake reasons are, it was foolish. Attacking Israel because of occupation (with weapons like that) is like stabbing yourself with a knife because you have a flu.

    Maggoty,

    Oh so only the Israelis are allowed to show aggression? The Palestinians just have to take it in silence?

    rdri,

    Until they have a chance to actually change anything for good for themselves - yes. Palestinians couldn’t unsteal the lands so October 7th was useless. Israel will be able to prevent terrorists attack for a few years so the ground operation is not useless

    Or, hamas could just surrender and release all hostages to immediately stop what’s happening right now.

    Maggoty,

    That is deranged and inhuman.

    rdri,

    Deranged an inhuman is to do terrorism, knowing that not only people are going to die, but your people are, too, going to die and suffer as a result. There is zero “protection” or “justice” in these actions and trying to justify them with anything like “but they are occupiers so it’s okay to attack them” is beyond foolish.

    Maggoty,

    Expecting humans to act like robots is quite literally inhuman. They’re pissed off and desperate. That has not not ever in human history resulted in negotiations. This entire line of reasoning is only meant to make Palestinians look like violent savages when the reality is this is how Apartheid and anti colonial struggles have always looked.

    rdri,

    Expecting humans to act like robots is quite literally inhuman.

    Expecting humans to not resort to useless terrorism is nothing like that.

    They’re pissed off and desperate.

    Doesn’t mean they can kill anyone and remain unaffected by consequences.

    That has not not ever in human history resulted in negotiations.

    I’m not sure I understand this sentence. What is “that”? What is “not not”?

    This entire line of reasoning is only meant to make Palestinians look like violent savages when the reality is this is how Apartheid and anti colonial struggles have always looked.

    I’m not even trying to make Plaestinians look bad and I know some of them really want to kill (some did killed) jews in order to become heroes. They are victims of hamas in several ways, but it doesn’t save them. Why? Because Gaza is at war, and, as a war participant, it’s unique in how it doesn’t care about its civilians during a war. Hamas’ only defense is hostages, and Palestinians are not much different from hostages. That’s why there may be a lot of casualties, not because Israel is “a bloody monster” or whatever.

    I think everyone should drop the whole apartheid/colonialism thing and realize that it can’t be solved with current hamas’ approach. Maybe it could be solved if Gaza cared to make itself a proper country, to become independent, sustainable and responsible. Maybe also abandoning radical religion could help.

    Maggoty,

    If the Palestinians are hostages why isn’t Israel allowing them to leave the combat area?

    I’m done here. You’re still asserting that this collective punishment is some kind of natural response to the Hamas attack but are completely ignoring any human nature on the side of the Gazans. They have to remain ultra rational while being shot at but the Israelis are allowed to have emotion.

    rdri,

    Israel’s response is closer to natural response than what hamas is doing. You don’t have to be ultra rational to understand there is no way to achieve their goal (to kill all Jews) and to remain in a normal relationship with the rest of the world.

    Israel demonstrates some emotional reactions, yes. But the core logic is still there: as before, the ground operation is started only when the point of “iron dome is no longer enough to keep terrorists at place” is reached.

    Riccosuave,
    @Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

    The world is watching. No justice, no peace.

    dumdum666,

    What exactly is justice in context of a war? And do you realize that absolute justice for all sides means that the war will never end?

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    I'd love to hear what you think justice is dumdum.

    dumdum666,

    There can’t be „justice“ for things from the past. Everyone has to heal and make amends. You have to look into the future, so both sides learn to coexist.

    Worked for France and Germany and Worked for the IRA and the UK. Conflicts that lasted centuries (France/Germany) and decades (IRA/UK) were able to get resolved.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    So you also agree that Israel should immediately cease the siege of Gaza and look toward a diplomatic solution that aims to heal both parties loss. Perhaps a brokered peace and lasting agreement by a neutral 3rd party to finally solve all disputes? I think that's a wonderful idea.

    idoubledo,

    Like that hasn’t been tried before.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Your right, better to just keep bombing. I meant it more as the neutral party decides but both sides agree up front to abide by the terms of the agreement and have no say in how that neutral party decides. Perhaps protection guarantees are made and loss of claims imposed on any further hostilities?

    idoubledo,

    Who do you suggest as a “neutral body”?

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    If it's a single country? Maybe Iceland just off the top of the head? I feel like they would do their best to listen to everyone and go over all the data.

    Maybe some sort of neutral council that expressly uses smaller, non dominate countries, that could vote in secrecy and be protected from the wishes of the international super powers.

    idoubledo,

    You seem to not fully understand the situation if you think both parties will accept your solution

    x.com/Duduoppe/status/1713996489024794825?s=20

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Why the hell are you sending me some guys yuk yuk eli5 take on the situation? Were talking about people here man. I give no shits what Hamas has to say and no shits what Bibi has to say. Hence, neutral 3rd party and binding agreement with no taksey backseys.

    idoubledo,

    So, you’re the one who’s going to tell terrorists that they should avoid violence from now? And what if they say no? Are you going to enforce it?

    You’re clearly delusional.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    it's called reforms man. Do you think all the people that fought in all the wars of "great and powerful enemies" just went on to loot and plunder the world after the conflicts ended? That these irredeemable souls beyond help had to be liquidated or chained up in a cell? They just went home. Or they went to prison. It gets sorted out. That's literally how a justice system and reformation works.

    Germany and Japan were considered to be literal monsters and now are some of the most respected countries in the world. It doesn't happen overnight, but that's what happens when you give people a path to walk and a future to look forward to that isn't "die in Gaza prison"

    Have the U.N. come in, hold the ceasefire on both sides and create space for those people to hold new elections once they can breath for a minute. It's not rocket science.

    idoubledo,

    I don’t know if you’re aware, but Hamas previously had an Israeli hostage that was freed in exchange for around one thousand terrorists from Israeli detention facilities with the aid of a third “neutral” country.

    Do you know where those 1000 or so terrorists spent the 7th of October? I’ll let you guess.

    Also, are you aware of the situation in the north of Israel with the border of Lebanon? Israel previously decided to stop its military campaign (initiated after a chain of terrorist and missile attacks) after getting assurances a UN peace keeping forces will make sure no terrorist organization takes advantage of the war torn Lebanon. Do you want me to describe what the situation is like in that border since?

    “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

    Only someone with no beef in the situation and no knowledge of history will suggest what you are suggesting - I don’t blame you though, you want to help out, but you should start by knowing the history: youtu.be/XNf40sBcvKk?si=y_jdp7OsfmD2IvdW

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Holy shit. Stop sending me fucking eli5 videos that I will most certainly not watch after affording you a courtesy on the first one. You've addressed nothing of what I've said in any meaningful way and are just trying to pivot off a bunch of new talking points. I already pointed out what a possible solution is that covers all this stuff. Either systematically refute those points or go play Roblox backrooms, but stop wasting both our time otherwise till the next account clocks in.

    idoubledo,

    You gave Germany and Japan as examples, do you remember what are the military actions that convinced these countries from committing their atrocities?

    You seem to choose what parts of history you remember. You should take a refresher course in history, or watch the video I linked, it’s really informative I promise.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Not what I asked for. Refute the points before we address yours.

    idoubledo,

    I thought I did, if there’s a point you think I missed let me know.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    You did not. From the beginning.

    idoubledo,

    I did, state the missing point or stop gaslighting.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    no you didn't but whatever you say. Hopefully nobody will go back and look at all the easily looked at evidence of this.

    nonailsleft,

    Sounds great, but really that’ll just be the pre-october 7 blockaded Gaza situation but with UN soldiers watching Hamas not pull any shit.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    I would imagine with a large enough peace keeping force the pretense for the blockaid would be voided if the eventual outcome would be a binding agreement as I stated elsewhere in the thread. As people love to state, the purpose of Hamas is to destroy Israel. If the accepted outcome of whatever agreement is reached is to be final regardless, then a new incoming government under a democratic framework would be needed quickly as Hamas would be irrelevant.

    Also, who knows what that agreement means for rules or reformations placed on Israels government as well. With a fresh start for both, perhaps the people can move on.

    nonailsleft,

    Wait, are you suggesting a UN force dismantles the state of Israel? Why would they agree to that?

    mwguy,

    There’s no nation willing to commit enough troops to stop Hamas from starting shit in Gaza.

    Also, who knows what that agreement means for rules or reformations placed on Israels government as well. With a fresh start for both, perhaps the people can move on.

    It’s unrealistic to believe that any ceasefire is going to come with restrictions on Israel government as militarily their the dominant force in the conflict.

    burchalka,

    The UNIFIL (neutral peace keeping force) exists in Lebanon since 1978 - and didn’t prevent Hezbollah from becoming the most capable non-government actor in the region, which launches AT missiles on Israeli northern border every single day. Tell us more about neutral parties…

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Pack it up everyone. Anything that hasn't gone right before in the past, means nothing, no matter how different, could ever succeed in the future. Not like there's any ethnic cleansing or genocides to look back on. Better get going with this totally original "Gaza Remodel"

    burchalka,

    Just saying that the suggestion for third party peace keeping force is a bit idealistic, and doesn’t have a good track record. So there has to be another way.

    dumdum666,

    While Hamas ceases fire and releases all hostages unconditionally at the same time of course. sounds like a splendid idea.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    I believe that's on the table

    Speaking at the United Nations, Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian said that Hamas is ready to release hostages on the condition that 6,000 Palestinians, who are currently in Israeli jails, are released as well.
    "According to our negotiations, Hamas is ready to release civilian prisoners. On the other hand, the world should support the release of 6,000 Palestinians held in Israeli prisons," he told a meeting of the 193-member General Assembly on the Middle East on Thursday.

    Probably not the preferred outcome, but it stops the killing now

    dumdum666,

    That’s not an unconditional release of the hostages - so it’s very unlikely to happen.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    There can’t be „justice“ for things from the past. Everyone has to heal and make amends. You have to look into the future, so both sides learn to coexist.

    Your statement doesn't jive then.

    dumdum666,

    You make exaggerated statements, by driving arguments to their most extreme (full amends and healing has to happen INSTANTLY/NOW), to pretend that an argument is invalid.

    The healing and making amends is a process that will take years, if not a decade.

    Israel will not give in to Hamas demands that stemmed from the October 7 terror attack. This would show EVERY Terror Organization that terror against civilians indeed pays very well.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Don't act like you care about the lives being erased by the bombs then man. We didn't have to have this conversation. You were the one who wanted to act like you cared now and not in years, if not a decade.

    dumdum666,

    You don’t want to contribute to a meaningful discussion and are only virtue signaling to your Hamas Fanboys that cheer you on. You are only here to WIN a discussion, not take part in it. There is no value talking to the likes of you. So keep on with your little circlejerk here.

    LadyAutumn,
    @LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    You say this like there’s never been an attempt at resolving the apartheid state of Israel. There have been many attempts at diplomatic solutions. For the last 30 years, Netanyahu himself has done everything he can to prevent any kind of diplomatic solution from ever happening.

    GONADS125,

    Probably thinks justice only means retribution.

    dumdum666,

    I honestly don’t care what assumptions you make about me.

    GONADS125,

    That’s good.

    Aurenkin,

    You’re right, I guess this is just the genocide we had to have.

    /s

    Redrum714,

    If you dont want genocided don’t try and genocide your neighbor. Pretty simple concept really

    intensely_human,

    It is errors in justice that make wars grow.

    An excellent example of an error in justice is killing the people next to the people who attacked you. This conflict continues because there’s no clean line connecting an attacker to the retaliation back against that attacker.

    jarfil,

    What exactly is justice in context of a war?

    Whoever wins.

    The war will end when there are no sides left.

    Which is… either when everyone decides to put their differences aside… or when the last man standing finally dies, all tales get forgotten, and all written records destroyed, so nobody can ever pick any of the sides again. They’ll likely pick a different set of sides again, but that will be a different war 🤷

    SCB,

    The world is watching justice happen right now.

    JoeBigelow,
    @JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca avatar

    If a dog bit a person and that person went to the pound and just kicked all the dogs, is sort of what you’re cheering for

    rengoku2,

    That dog bit and killed the person’s family. Fix that sentence.

    NikkiDimes,

    Okay, and that changes what in this example…?

    IronKrill,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    rengoku2,

    So what? Stay silent and let the dogs come back to kill more?

    spiderman,

    Innocents being killed is not justice, it’s genocide.

    Riccosuave,
    @Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

    This speaks to your warped sense of what justice really is, and I pity those around you for how that must affect them as you go through life bleeding your vindictiveness onto others.

    The problem with those who are both shameless and arrogant is that they lack the self-awareness and empathy to put themselves in the shoes of others. May the universe show you the same level of mercy that you seem inclined to grant to others…

    SirToxicAvenger,

    the world has never truly been at peace though - maybe prior to the evolution of bacteria, but I doubt it.

    aesthelete,

    The natural world is chaotic and violent, so that means we as thinking humans who know what it is to suffer pain and the loss of loved ones, must not only add to that violence and chaos but also devise new, sophisticated ways of inflicting suffering. But also don’t forget that we’re better and more civilized than animals. /s

    intensely_human,

    Until I experienced violence myself, I was unwilling to process the logic or think it through. Then I lived a portion of my life where I was in physical danger from very bad people, and I was forced to think it through.

    Being prepared to retaliate is the most effective defense against those who are not sympathetic to your needs, whom you cannot avoid. It’s why animals demo their weapons when cornered. It’s why plants “waste” energy producing toxins that harm would-be eaters.

    Every organism has weapons, and evolution’s been optimizing for over a billion years. Like, a little flap of skin no longer used is selected out over the course of a million years because it provides a disadvantage against those not wasting the energy to grow the little flap of skin. But nature spends energy putting claws on kittens. Why?

    It’s logical; it’s just ugly and unpleasant to acknowledge. The only time people acknowledge it is when their circumstances change such that not acknowledging it is worse. ie when they are faced with the necessity of dealing with violence.

    257m,

    Yes, bombing children is simply the way the world works. Nothing we can do to stop genocide I guess. /s

    jarfil,

    Based on known human history, the last time Humans stopped a genocide… was when we ate the last Neanderthal.

    intensely_human,

    Oh thank god it is so good to see someone who understands.

    Cease-fire is the best we’ve got. MAD is why small animals have the instinct to fight bigger animals. It’s why pufferfish exist. Nature, unconsciously, groks deterrence and programs it into 100% of her evolved organisms.

    PersnickityPenguin,

    That’s also why you can stand up to a bear and yell at it and the bear will run away, even though it could easily kill you… It doesn’t want to get in a fight.

    Huschke,

    I’m pretty sure Aliens exist and there are big signs around our solar system that say something like “Avoid that system, murderous apes”.

    Pasta4u,

    There isn’t single living thing on this planet that won’t fight woth others of its kind. Cats fight cats, ants fight ants and so on and so forth. I am sire the aliens would be doing the same shit.

    Iceblade02,

    Yeah, just look up grabby aliens

    piecat,

    Or that just means we’re not evolved enough yet

    Pasta4u,

    Or it just means there is always a scarcity of either need or want and it will never go away.

    mlg,
    @mlg@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s sorta true, but like cats and ants aren’t exactly sentient lol. They don’t commit war crimes and genocide because they can.

    Also maybe a space faring species has no issues with war with how much… space there is lol.

    Aw who am I kidding, its probably just like Elite Dangerous free for fall

    Aux,

    Cars are more sentient than most humans though.

    Madison420,

    Cats are sentient, they aren’t sapient as far as we are aware.

    I dunno where it comes from but lots of living things are sentient in fact most are, most aren’t however sapient.

    Sanity_in_Moderation,

    Cats are not a good example. They torture their prey. And kill billions of birds every year.

    DeathsEmbrace,

    Even worse it’s like an ad popup. “Stay away from dumb aggressive animals”

    jarfil,

    “BET NOW, real-time observation and casino by Pluto Corp”…

    Maggoty,

    Warning, Interstellar Travel Insurance does not apply in the Sol System. The Galactic Council Security Office warns travelers to stay away from Sol and specifically Earth due to endemic violence on the planet.

    Agent641,

    AIens lock the doors on their flying saucers when they drive past Earth

    Kedly,

    I guess the silver lining of this shitshow happening right as I joined Lemmy is that its giving me a massive list of hateful idiots and servers to block right out of the gate

    Riccosuave,
    @Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

    Generals gathered in their masses
    Just like witches at black masses
    Evil minds that plot destruction
    Sorcerer of death’s construction

    In the fields, the bodies burning
    As the war machine keeps turning
    Death and hatred to mankind
    Poisoning their brainwashed minds

    Politicians hide themselves away
    They only started the war
    Why should they go out to fight?
    They leave that role to the poor, yeah

    Time will tell on their power minds
    Making war just for fun
    Treating people just like pawns in chess
    Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!

    Now in darkness, world stops turning
    Ashes where their bodies burning
    No more war pigs have the power
    Hand of God has struck the hour

    Day of judgement, God is calling
    On their knees, the war pigs crawling
    Begging mercy for their sins
    Satan laughing, spreads his wings

    afraid_of_zombies,

    I don’t know why Satan is always the bad guy. If it exists I would be on his side over the opposition. Way I see it the theists are the ones doing these wars

    doom_and_gloom, (edited )
    @doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    afraid_of_zombies,

    Ok ok fine in modern usage by those of us (including me) who do not have a masters in the humanities. Yes, I am aware of the connection between Lucifer and Prometheus. As well as his rebranding effort as a symbol of humanism.

    dutchkimble,

    Oh lord yeah

    xc2215x,

    Things have gotten so out of hand. It is a shame.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Night bombings are always known to be the most accurate.

    dumdum666,

    Yeah - we should be glad that weapons technology actually evolved to a point, where carpet fire bombings of cities like Dresden or Hamburg (WW2) are a thing of the past.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    Don't forget Tokyo! Those we're all war crimes interestingly enough.

    Oddly the siege of Gaza may very well fall into that category with the amount of ordinance that's been dropped, although the terminology would likely be different due to the guided aspect.

    Carpet bombing of cities, towns, villages, or other areas containing a concentration of civilians is considered a war crime[5] as of Article 51 of the 1977 Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[6][7][8]
    The term obliteration bombing is sometimes used to describe especially intensified bombing with the intention of destroying a city or a large part of the city. The term area bombing refers to indiscriminate bombing of an area and also encompasses cases of carpet bombing, including obliteration bombing.

    Perhaps it might even get it's own unique term someday. I do find it quite similar from what I'm reading on the first instance of carpet bombing though, the bombing of Barcelona

    Along with the variance of the times between each individual attack, this had a demoralizing effect on the civilian population, which suffered prolonged anxiety quite out of proportion to the number of bombs dropped over a long period of time. Coupled with the fact that there was little discernible military value in the choice of targets within the city, and the cessation of the attacks for no apparent reason

    Edit: sorry meant to add this as well

    The Italian bombers dropped 44 tons of bombs.[7] Rather than aiming at military targets, the Italians intended to destroy industrial areas of the city and demoralize the Republican side, in what some authors have described as the first aerial carpet bombing in history.[1] Their targets and declared objectives were military warehouses, arms factories, trains with soldiers, and the port, but civil buildings, cinemas, consulates, and theatres were also hit or destroyed during the bombing.[8]

    mea_rah,

    It’s probably worth pointing out that the Geneva Convention article you’re quoting was written a couple decades after both Tokyo and Barcelona events.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    I guess take it up with the Wikipedia editors if you don't like it?

    mea_rah,

    I’m not saying it’s not a war crime according to the definition. I was just pointing out that the specific crimes precede the definition by a couple of decades.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    But they weren’t war-crimes at the time and in fact, to the contrary, were very much in the spirit of war as it was being prosecuted by all of the belligerents.

    There’s been a lot of really good work on the history of air power and the logic that led to deliberately targeting civilians in WW2 on all sides. It wasn’t necessarily as nakedly bloodthirsty as it appears to us now looking back. If you honestly believed that targeting civilians would shorten the war and ultimately result in less suffering, it was actually a moral decision, or at least morally ambiguous.

    JoMiran,
    @JoMiran@lemmy.ml avatar

    A poll published Friday found that only 49 percent of Israelis want to hold off on the ground offensive against Hamas, down from 65 percent last week.

    Disappointing to say the least.

    SirToxicAvenger,

    but understandable - after all, there’s still quite a few hostages that the terrorists are holding. hopefully they’re being treated humanely and not, you know, tortured & etc but terrorists thrive on terrorism…

    umbrella,
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    boo hoo, palestinians are dying by the thousands

    LoafyLemon,
    LoafyLemon avatar

    One tragedy doesn't justify the other tragedy, or make it less important. It's not a competition.

    umbrella,
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    One tragedy can’t justify another. But one is causing the other.

    steventhedev,

    Entirely predictable though. Unlike previous rounds between Israel and Gaza, they haven’t been targeting the rocket infrastructure. Hamas and PIJ have been bombing Israeli cities daily since October 7th. It doesn’t get much coverage because most are intercepted and Israel intentionally censors most documentation of it - but you can find it in the liveblogs of most Israeli news sources.

    Djehngo,

    The Hamas and IDF aligned telegram channels have both been remarkably consistent about cheering when about our munitions landing in their territory and decrying the reverse.

    muhammad_the_pedo,

    I hope all the Gazan civilians set free from any form of violence from anyone…

    tetraodon,

    As anyone else. But as a species we don’t seem to get it that violence achieves nothing.

    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    dumdum666,

    Yeah, tell that to Gandhi

    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Siegfried,

    Nope, they are not

    Unless you consider voting full engage civilian violence

    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Siegfried, (edited )

    All of the civil rights in my country were slowly incorporated by democratic means through the last century.

    Edit, this includes paid vacations, paid maternity leaves for both mother and father, female vote, abolishing slavery, public health, free secular public education (12 years obligatory + university), unemployment insurance, universal income*, abortion

    Edit2: that doesn’t mean that all rights are won without violence and my country had a lot of violence, but it was about who was holding the power. Rights were voted through the decades almost independently of who was in power.

    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Siegfried,

    Argentina

    aniki, (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Siegfried,

    Yes, and still, all those rights were won through democratic means… way, way before the coups

    intensely_human,

    Rights are not won by voting.

    tetraodon,

    Sure, and look how many rights the most violent places on Earth enjoy.

    Big mouth for violence until you or your loved ones happen to be under the path of a bomb.

    Because if you play the violence game, you will always find someone more ruthless and/or well equipped than you are.

    intensely_human,

    Well there’s violence and there’s the capacity for violence. The most effective thing is the capacity for violence. The actual violence isn’t useful; except as a means to prove one’s capacity.

    The best is to achieve that without having to actually hurt anyone.

    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    tetraodon,

    Oh, I’m sure America will topple, sooner or later. Who knows? In one or two Trumps, perhaps. Or maybe it will take 50 years, or a century or two, until civilization itself collapses because of unchecked climate change. History teaches us that all empires fail, and there’s no reason to believe that history will stop at the U.S. of A.

    And obviously there’s no denying that violence has always been a driving factor in history. But saying that it doesn’t mean saying that it is desirable. Sure violence brought us here, but, unless you’re a psycho billionnaire, you will have to admit that this is far from a perfect world.

    I’m not saying violence is completely avoidable (I stand with Ukrainians’ right to defend their country in any way) but maybe it could be that we can try applying it less and less.

    OrderedChaos,

    I think the majority of us get it. There are a few who are making decisions that don’t understand.

    tetraodon,

    Reread the replies to my comment and tell me again that most of us get it. Most people are ok with violence as long as they benefit from it.

    DogMuffins,

    They understand, it’s just that minimising violence is not their objective.

    pennomi,

    But is that actually true? A lot can be gained from killing your enemies and taking their stuff.

    I’m not saying it’s right in any way, but the motivation should be as clear as any motivation ever has been.

    tetraodon,

    Achieved for whom? We’ve been following this advice since, well, forever. And yes, the elite might gain some material or political advantage from winning a war, but it’s a losing game for most.

    intensely_human,

    When’s the last time a soldier forced his way into your home and told you to bring him food or he’d kill you?

    SirToxicAvenger,

    sweet loot drops, for one.

    HappycamperNZ,

    You know if the leader of Hamas dropped 4x legendary skins, 2X xp multiplier and $30 worth of in game currency a teenager would have them dead by morning.

    000999,

    Violence is the most direct and effective method of control, of obtaining and maintaining power.

    And that is why nation states have a monopoly on it

    hatedbad,

    and it’s also why the propaganda machine always pushes the “violence is not the answer” narrative

    idoubledo,

    So your logic is stop Israel’s “violence”, but let Palestinians continue with their “resistance”?

    Not_Alec_Baldwin,

    Just BROADLY speaking, the pro Palestinian take right now is that Israel should be removed and Palestine given all of the territory.

    Like, that’s the take. They don’t just want an end to the violence - Israel wants that too. Hamas has been dedicated to the destruction of Jews and Israel for basically forever.

    So it’s asymmetrical.

    The pro Israel take is “destroy Hamas so that these attacks stop and there can be peace.” But it’s important to note that up until the October 7 attack Israel only wanted peace. This new policy is a reaction to an unprecedented attack.

    intensely_human,

    It’s also why parity is a key component of citizens’ enjoying respect.

    theneverfox,
    @theneverfox@pawb.social avatar

    That era ended after WWII, that’s not how it works anymore… Anything worthwhile gets destroyed and polluted if you fight with modern arms

    We’ve gotten more advanced - now, you can make billions through the act of war itself! If you position yourself correctly through investments, you too can drink from the firehouse of money aimed at the military industrial complex whenever war occurs

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