But I frankly wonder why I bother trying to improve the semantics of #PHP when it seems people don't give a fuck and just want crap not actually implemented in any sensible way, just so they can feel like they are working with a "real" programming.
It honestly tilts me that people want to make the language more inconsistent and shit just for some minor DX that one could achieve by building tooling in PHP.
@Girgias I have no clue what‘s been said but know that I and my team are super grateful for all your cleanup work. I feel like ever since the inception of the foundation, PHP is getting more concise and I can‘t state enough how absolutely awesome this is! I‘d pick a clean and maintainable code base over a new fancy feature any day. Please, don‘t let negativity bias win :)
If people want inline generics that do fuck all, people can write a simple transpiler that takes the inline notation and convert it to a doc comment.
But nah that would require effort and usage of tooling (that plenty of people already use to a point where one has a "build" pipeline, so adding a small extra step is nothing...)
@Girgias@Crell I mean, would I prefer runtime checked generics? Yes. Would I want to pay the performance price? No. Would I accept runtime-erased generics as a compromise? Yeah.
Honestly, if there was support for that in #PhpStorm, I don't care whether it's part of language, or as attributes (I hate using phpdoc for that, though) via some 3rd party library. Consistent IDE support (and static analysis) is way more important to me.
@chrastecky@Crell Lobbying IDEs, writing a plugin for them, or standardizing attributes is something that can be done without involvement of internals.
Runtime erases generics are just plain dumb. I hate Python with a passion for lying about its "types" because they do nothing.
And they are especially dumb for PHP because it makes the language completely inconsistent. I really don't get why a design should be compromised if the result is a pile of shit.
@Girgias@Crell So w
now I am looking forward to PHPtng - a language based on PHP but with "native" generics that will be transpiled to PHP (with appropriate annotations/attributes) before runtime 🙈
Any takers?
If not, then stop complaining. Can't be that important
I spend so much time thinking about this language and how to make it sensible and stop being a laughing stock, when a subset of actual users just want to make it a bigger laughing stock.
The amount of shit just said and broadcast into the world with no amount of consideration makes me sick.
I started contributing to PHP due to some depressing circumstances, and seeing and reading garbage opinions from people that should know better and STFU makes me curse those circumstances even more.
It really makes me want to walk away, fork PHP so that I can play with it and do what I want to it as a toy language, instead of needing to deal with the constant shit that comes from every direction.
@Girgias It's similar to how musicians lose their musicality when they accept all the suggestions from fans. It may also be a case of "not seeing the forest for the trees" as the Japanese proverb goes.
@gmazzap@jrf_nl@Girgias make that three! You’re part of what makes me stick with PHP, despite newer languages not having to deal with all the mistakes from the past.
Also having recently gotten back into PHP, the quality of (the people that make-up) /r/php is pretty abhorrent. Best to just ignore that place altogether, if you ask me.
@dvk@gmazzap@jrf_nl It has frankly become worse, and I should just unsubscribe from the subreddit altogether, so I don't get dumb takes while scrolling my limited use of Reddit.
Doesn't fucking help the only seemingly active mod uses the sub as a platform to broadcast their dog shit, and harmful, takes.
@afilina@dvk@gmazzap@jrf_nl Reddit has provided me with some nice communities which have helped me. But it has been going down the drain for a while so yeah.
@jrf_nl@Girgias +1, I really appreciate the detail you go into, and how much thought you apply (e.g. how we got to a situation, and what can be done about it)… like the Path to Saner Increment/Decrement operators, no one really cared about the oddities, but they cause issues, and you came up with a really good solution.
@Girgias I don’t know the precise context that makes you say this, but could it just be a side effect of PHP’s popularity? The language is used by so many people that all sorts of interests must be clashing all the time
@osteel For existing behaviour, sure that makes sense and is something that is "normal" to deal with.
But for new features, it makes completely no sense.
I legit find it insane that people will justify bad design with "PHP is already inconsistent, why not have it inconsistent here too".
Like wtf, sure trying to change long-standing inconsistencies might be impossible, but let's not add new ones.
But as always: Very vocal groups of people do not necessarily make up the majority. But the shit piled up by them makes one reconsider whether it's worth the sleepless nights.
I'd rather you could sleep at night! And I do value what you do for PHP! And that you try to make it a better language - at least for my definition of "better"
@Girgias I also appreciate the hard work you do, and appreciate our interactions. The public crap is indeed unfortunate and can be demotivating. It's mostly the people who complain that get a platform and reach, instead of the people who appreciate work. For every complainer there's many more people who appreciate a better language.
@Girgias It’s terrible people made you feel this way. Thank you for all your work on PHP. Your efforts have provided legions of developers a career as PHP developers. I am one of them. So thank you.
I have no idea what has been said or written nor where...
but in the end that is not important
Your work, and of all the #PHP core devs, is much appreciated, valued and respected by all the #PHP devs I know
Maybe part of the problem is that we don't show enough how thankful we are...
If we did, maybe you would feel less frustrated by some of the BS you're pointing at
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