For users of any operating system, not just #Linux, what might keep you from trying/running an #immutable#Fedora desktop? If you are already running one, why did you choose it?
@vwbusguy I have installed it on my 13yr old daughter's 12 yr old lenovo ideapad, and use it too. Very stable so far, updates fairly easy.No difference for us as simple users vs regular distros so probably quite ok for people moving from mac or windows.
@vwbusguy I tried fedora Silverblue about 6 months ago, was stunned by how well it worked out of the box and after discovering the joy of rebasing settled on bazzite which manages to do everything I could possibly need while also enabling me to play a lot of my windows games better than windows 11 ever could.
@vwbusguy I’m a software engineer with past experience with functional programming languages (and what immutability means in that context). I love the “immutable” distros and have hopped between almost all of them.
For me the reduced hysteresis and atomic updates are the appeal. It’s important to acknowledge the range of approaches in the immutable linux space: SUSE transactional updates, ostree style image updates, NixOS style declarative, vanilla os ABroot deployments..
@vwbusguy these are all very different in terms of what types of customisation they allow of the base OS, how they tackle hysteresis of configuration or package selection, etc. I think it’s important to recognise these differences when talking about immutable distros and not assume they all have the same characteristics. EndlessOS (ostree) is very different to MicroOS (transactional updates) which is very different to NixOS (declarative).
@vwbusguy in my opinion “transactional updates” are the easiest to grok coming from a traditional “ephemeral” distro. You could imagine hacking it together yourself ontop of Debian using btrfs subvolumes, snapshots, chroot, etc. They offer the most straightforward path to local customisation, and least protection against hysteresis. Ostree is at the opposite end (imho).
@pauldoo "Easiest to grok" really depends, though. If you're using SUSE Elemental, then you aren't using the transactional-update command, but defining everything in YAML definitions, and that can get more difficult to grok. If you're just wanting Gnome but with ease of updates like ChromeOS, then Silverblue is easier, IMO. Power Linux users tend to get lost in the weeds with rpm-ostree, where regular desktop users seem to find it more initially intuitive.
@vwbusguy I've tried Silverblue, but didn't stick for long, because I didn't really know how to use it. All I know is "just use Flatpak. Oh, and there's also Toolbox if you need it". But how do I install my favorite terminal apps? How do I use them in VSCode, which I installed as a Flatpak? How to install for example Ruby to have it both in VSCode, RubyMine and terminal? What can I even use Toolbox for? I think there needs to be some sort of a guide to immutable OS on Silverblue's download page
@rafal06 There is a link to the docs on the Silverblue page, but it's not in the top navigation but a button next to the Download button. IMO, the link to the Documentation could be more prominent, though.
@vwbusguy When I've tried immutable, it didn't offer me any advantages.
To convince me to keep an immutable distro on a machine, I'd want to be able to manipulate and tweak sandboxed apps at least to the degree I can their traditionally packaged versions. I'd want a single toolset to work with sandboxed and traditional apps. I'd want it to relieve me of the burden of always being aware of what is sandboxed and what is "layered".
(Much of it is "Give me a reason to use flatpaks.")
@Corb_The_Lesser On (non-immutable) Fedora Workstation as it currently is, when you search for things to install in Software, Flatpak and RPM are both shown, and often Flatpak are given preference.
In regards to "tweaking the sandbox", you might check out Flatseal:
@jonkoops Maybe it's changed, but I used to install it via tarball because they didn't provide a yum repo for it. Tarball install works the same way. If they do have a yum repo for it now, then you can still install it via rpm-ostree and/or toolbox.
@vwbusguy
I like the immutability but for me reproducibility is also important. If I have reliable reproducible build for my setup then I don't really need immutability. Which #nixos provides for me.
@razze So, unlike Ubuntu with snap, on Fedora, even the immutable variants, Firefox is provided via RPM by default. It is possible to run it in flatpak instead, but by default, it's the same exact browser software that you get in Workstation that you get in Silverblue from the same RPM source. It looks like the integrations are a problem for snap/flatpak browsers but not the default RPM:
@vwbusguy the need of docker for work and the resulting containerception. And running it parallel to toolbox seems weird. At least the last time I tried it there was no proper/ straight foward solution for it.
@pajlow toolbox uses podman instead of Docker (by default) and is entirely optional. You can use toolbox on regular Fedora as well. Personally, I see it as a "right tool for the job". If I need to compile/test something for EL8, for example, toolbox is quick and easy way to try that out without a VM or messing with system runtimes.
@vwbusguy Fedora never really worked great on my PCs. It'd be fine at first, but eventually something would stop working. The nine-month update cycle only made the problem worse. Fedora's still a great distro, and I don't doubt it's gotten even better with time, but the experience kinda left a sour taste in my mouth
@aires This is one of the problems the immutable versions solve - much easier major version upgrades. It's just a reboot away. You can also easily reset your system back to stock without a reinstall.
@aylamz@Natanox Yes, exactly. They're essentially OpenSUSE correlates to Silverblue and Kinoite, though the method to achieve immutability is different under the hood (btrfs and transactional-update instead of rpm-ostree).
@vwbusguy i'm using Sericea mainly for security reasons, maybe it will not last forever but currently I don't think there are chances for malware/backdoors to inject at low level in immutable filesystem. Also it's so easy to change DE with a simple rebase, without mixing libraries between Gnome and Sway for example.
@paolinus Very curious to hear your experience with Sericea (and how you tend to pronounce it since there's three different pronunciations I hear of it).
@paolinus That's awesome! Also, as a native English speaker, I have no idea how to properly pronounce Sericea 😅.
Maybe because I live in So Cal and it looks Latin based, I tend to pronounce it like Spanish, but I've also seen videos of people pronouncing it with a hard C or a "ch" sound for the C.
@vwbusguy I've been using silverblue / kinoite / Nobara for a little bit and have been quite comfy there! I usually end up breaking a Linux install within a month or two, but immutable filesystems keep me from getting into too much trouble haha.
@vwbusguy never seen a reason to actually daily-drive one since i don't see the "advantages" as actual advantages
i never had any problems with updating on normal distros, so that part of it is completely out
because of how i use my computer sandboxing, toolbox and all that other stuff usually ends up being more of a headache i have to go through every time than a nice addition to the system
i never needed an option to "factory reset" my system and doubt i ever will
@blobcat I held that view for a long time. I honestly didn't see the merits to it until after I tried it alongside traditional distros. Over time, I really began to appreciate how much less overall maintenance it is. It also took me a while to grok what "immutable" meant and once I realized it's like ChromeOS for Linux DEs is when it started to click for me.
I have been running KDE Neon for several years now. I am not a hard core Linux user by any means and mostly use it to run my laptop to do every day things (web browsing, some spreadsheets, writing, maybe reformat some video.) I switched to Linux at the end of the Windows 7 era and after distro hopping for a bit, settled on KDE as my DE of choice (although sometimes I think I should check out the newest version of Gnome, but honestly I am pretty happy where I am with KDE.)
I looked at Fedora recently and was a little put off by the installer, but I understand that may be changing.
I have read a couple of articles on "immutable" operating systems, but frankly I don't really understand what they do and what advantage they might have for a more casual user such as myself.
@vwbusguy I want to use tools in my terminal (Python in multiple versions, tox, git, mercurial, Fedora packager tools) without the need to fiddle with containers. My understanding was that the blessed workflow is to use a separate toolbox for each project I am working on, which sounds suboptimal to me. But I have never tried.
@hroncok this echos my feelings and also experience with trying it. As an end user it only adds friction so there's no benefit for me (I can't remember the last time I broke my install and would need to roll-back). @vwbusguy
@_TimTaylor@hroncok Regarding "blessed workflow", this comes up often. Nowhere in the docs does it say you shouldn't install things from rpm. There are occasionally some loud voices who individually discourage it. I have a bunch of stuff layered in from rpm-ostree. Not being able to have vim how I want it would be a non-starter for me. You can't do things like libvirt in toolbox or flatpak (without it being installed on the host).
@_TimTaylor@hroncok If you take the perspective that it's your system and rpm-ostree, flatpak, toolbox, etc are all supported, then the friction becomes opportunity. It's essentially the same software options in traditional Fedora, but what changes is mainly how updates/install happens with rpm sources, but with much greater overall flexibility (rollback, rebase, upgrade with a simple reboot).
@vwbusguy laziness? I’m curious about it (specifically through your posts), but I really like Pop_OS! on my System76 laptop and I’m lazy 😅 I have a second m.2 drive with Windows 11 that I haven’t booted in months, maybe I should get rid of it and try Fedora 🤔
The backing track started in GarageBand and to get from there to here, I used Logic, SoundStudio, YouLean, Pages, Graphic, Procreate, Pixelmator, Final Cut and Compressor. (I’ve done things with GIMP and Inkspot and know there are good audio tools, but why relive some learning curves.) I just took test mixes of May tracks and put into Music, which will sync them to the phone.
@vwbusguy Let me make this point, I’m truly os impartial. I’ve used a lot of them and I recognize that some things would be easier on—okay I lied a little, I slightly prefer FreeBSD to Linux—a FOSS OS, but these are tasks I’m not doing at home, where I have some discretion over what computer I use. And, one of these days, I imagine I’ll get a VM for the Mac and have a Linux setup.
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