@JamesGleick As a "no," I believe that "raise your pinkie, maybe" is fully-caused, but so what? "Fill in your ballot," is also fully-caused but I want, not a random result, but one consistent with my preferences. Acting consistently with my preferences feels more like freedom than acting randomly. Frankfurt called this aligning 1st and 2nd order desires, is worth desiring, and is what we mistakenly label as "desiring free will."
@JamesGleick The laws of physics are deterministic. Just because it’s impossible to predict human behavior based on those laws doesn’t mean our behavior isn’t predetermined. Even quantum mechanics is deterministic. There’s no room for free will as most people understand it. In a more broad sense (e.g. Daniel Dennett’s ideas), maybe. But our decisions are still determined by our experiences plus random factors.
Also (and I don’t need to say this to you), with exponential divergence from initial conditions, determinism in that csse becomes in practice not distinguishable from randomness.
(How accurately can one actually measure those initial conditions?)
@protecttruth@JamesGleick Of course. But our lack of perfect information is not the same thing as non-determinism. Being unable to predict human behavior perfectly (or even well) is not the same thing as free will. To me, the popular definition of free is the ability to make decisions that are independent of the machinery of reality and of our brains. That is an idea that, I think, is in deep contradiction of what we know of how reality works.
@tauin@protecttruth@JamesGleick I don't worry about it because it doesn't affect my life at all. I make decisions based on my values and experience, and that's good enough for me. It doesn't bother or surprise me that those decisions are solely determined by what's in my brain. Since the process is so complex and chaotic it's not possible to predict the outcome, it's a distinction that makes no difference. To me, at least.
@JamesGleick We never have absolute knowledge, but there’s strong evidence the machinery of reality is deterministic and no evidence (I'm aware of) it’s not. All inferences are open to revision based on further evidence, but that's not a reason not to make a judgment based on what we know now. All knowledge is tentative, but some knowledge is very well-established, and I think the determinism of physics is in that category. Of course that could be wrong.
@JamesGleick I think nearly all humans experience something that feels like consciousness working its will, but I can't see why we should use the word "free" to describe it. Note Well: I'm also not sure we can really say we have a clear understanding of what is consciousness or how it works its will.
@JamesGleick
I think it would be much more interesting to hear from the "yes" crowd. Like, what in our material universe would "free will" actually consist of? It's like saying you believe in God. OK, cool, what is God? In both cases, it's an imaginary construct that helps people feel more secure about the nature of reality.
@JamesGleick Free will is a fundamentally flawed concept. It evolved in a Christian context because it would be monstrous for a loving God to condemn his creations for going against his laws if we're unable to prevent ourselves from doing so. In that system they have to pretend , for example, that being gay or not believing in God are choices we make.
Choice can happen, but our choices are never entirely free, but constrained by conditioning, so there is no "free" will.
@JamesGleick Really, you have to define free will first. Every definition I’ve seen is either trivially true but also uninteresting, or is Cartesian Dualism in disguise, or is nonsensical. So I’m voting no 😉
What made me vote no is complicated, but essentially my genetics, epigenetics and life experiences have produced a brain that has trouble suppressing the urge to share its opinion. And on a day like this, sat on the sofa with some spare time on my hands, it was pretty much a certainty.
@JamesGleick we've got a certain degree of free will IMO, limited by (if nothing else) the brute fact of existing here and now-- and all its attendant baggage.
It isn't absolute free will-- as others have said, I cannot fly, as much as I wish to-- but that doesn't make us entirely predetermined either, I don't think.
No, you commie, but you can subscribe to will for $5.99/mo on Amazon Prime. It's a deal, given that speech on Twitter costs $8. Not surprisingly, thought is the most expensive of the three, coming in at a price of $12,000 per thousand requests to the API.
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