They go on to imagine some wonderful or awful scenario where the floodgates are open and #Threads becomes another #ActivityPub app like #CalcKey or #Plemora.
Maybe.... but what you are envisioning is really very unlikely. Threads is entirely algorithm driven. How's that going to work? Plus they have no interest in letting their captured users escape.
Just saying, this smells like another vaporwear marketing strategy. The beauty of selling poorly defined future capabilities is that everyone imagines they will be exactly what they most desire (or fear), and then build expectations and plan accordingly.
It could be some very limited window into the fediverse. Caution not to get too far out over our skis here until we know more about the actual capability.
@mastodonmigration These are the kinds of issues that are best gamed out well in advance to cover the various contingencies. Not doing so risks being trapped in a corner when events ultimately play out.
@lauren@mastodonmigration As someone mentioned, Meta might need to implement some kind of Fediverse connection to keep the FTC Antitrust division off their backs. It could take a while, but it seems likely that Meta will do something and folks should be ready.
@lauren Sure, be prepared. But don't place all your bets on some sort of full federation. Actually, what they may do could even be a limited one way thing. Or, they might only "federate" with accounts that sign up for their draconian permissions and data/content license. We don't know.
@mastodonmigration The whole discussion could be academic, given the regulatory steamroller headed toward social media, with content rules and ID requirements and the rest. It's ending as we've known it. Dead men walking. Most people don't realize that yet.
My guess is that they will likely integrate fully with the fediverse, and it will be surprisingly normal and uneventful; and some bad things will happen and we'll deal with them, and some good things will happen too, and generally we'll continue on and not that much will change.
@mastodonmigration You are speculating here based upon unverified assumptions. #Meta has repeatedly stated that #Threads will support #ActivityPub, & even mention this repeatedly to the media (Meta even talks about the #Fediverse & mentions #Mastodon by name in press releases).
They also talked about account importing/exporting as well (which the soon to be renamed #Calckey currently supports). Only time will tell if they implement their declared intentions.
@darnell Very aware of what they have said. And there are ways to meet the letter of those statements that come far short of the full federation that people may be assuming. Just saying be cautious imagining what precise form this "federation with the fediverse" is going to take.
@mastodonmigration@darnell Not sure why people should worry about broken or non-existent federation. The issue is the possibility the DO do it functionally and then basically have the #Fediverse as a tail to wag.
@mastodonmigration#Meta has plainly stated that #Threads will embrace the #Fediverse & federate with apps like #Mastodon. I understand being cautious about Meta (especially after the issues #Facebook has created), but being super paranoid about clear, concise statements is a bit much.
@darnell Again, know what they have said, and precisely how "embrace the #Fediverse" and "federate with apps like #Mastodon," actually works might hold some surprises, if you are assuming something like the way mainstream ActivityPub apps work. It could be much more of a bridge with some sort of conditions.
@mastodonmigration@darnell I don't know enough about it but my hope is activitypub holds up like RSS does. You can still gum up RSS paywall links or something but it's still a net positive for a website to have it, imo. I agree to stay skeptical about anything Facebook does.
@darnell@mastodonmigration They've made it clear they'll be actually joining the fediverse (which includes the full package like account migration), and not just a 'bridge' since account migration would not be possible if their intent was only a bridge. I think it's best if we take their clear and concise statements at face value rather than speculate (which in turn causes unnecessary FUD), until proven otherwise.
@darnell@mastodonmigration I'd have my doubts if they were dodging and not putting much attention on the fediverse and migration topic, but they've literally put it front and center and it'd be a very poor business strategy and not very smart to act in bad faith and suddenly do a 180 on that. After all, they're desperately trying to improve their image and avoid the bad rep and lack of trust that they had previously built because of Facebook.
@darnell@mastodonmigration Another thing to add – algorithms have no effect on the functionality of or integration with ActivityPub. An algorithm is only a way of filtering or sorting those posts in a timeline, whether it's chronological or otherwise, and has no effect on the base protocol which is only concerned with sending (POST) and receiving (GET). Ads also work fine with ActivityPub and they are even supported on Mastodon IIRC. Apps can do anything and AP is only used to communicate.
@Nour@darnell The statements do seem clear and concise, but may not actually be as clear and concise as they seem. That is why it is not a good idea to make too many assumptions about what they will actually implement. With this company it may not be wise to take them "at face value."
@darnell@mastodonmigration When they say "apps like Mastodon", that's not clear at all because Mastodon isn't an "app" and client apps aren't what federate, instances are. Do they mean they'll federate with instances like mastodon.social that sign sketchy contracts with them? Or open federation with anything speaking AP that's not a moderation problem? Even if they have no license to the posts of users on that instance? Even if instance's users are or may be in GDPR jurisdiction?
@darnell@mastodonmigration
People really need to understand that in spite of Elon's appearance to the contrary, executives of publicly listed companies are on a very tight leash wrt their statements to the press/public. It's not a good look in front of the regulators if they get caught with having intentionally misled the market about their plans.
Meta has said they will federate. Barring notable events justifying a change of plan, they will have to federate.
@osma@darnell@mastodonmigration Jobs publicly promised to open the FaceTime protocol but apple never did, for unspecified ‘reasons’ I don’t think anyone fined them for it. Musk changes his mind constantly. Perhaps the old rules don’t apply ?
I agree with your message of caution about assumptions regarding Threads. But I'd like to go a step further. Seems to me like the perfect place to apply Occam's Razor - we can find a solution that doesn't require any assumptions. We don't have to guess what Meta will do with Threads, we just have to look back at what they did with Facebook, Instagram, and Whatsapp. We know about Cambridge Analytica, the Rohingya Genocide, the psychological and political damage done by their algorithms and advertising, the outright purchasing and monopolizing of competitors. This is all still Zuckerburg's company, it hasn't changed hands or culturally shifted, it hasn't suddenly found a conscience, it's still an amoral profit driven organization.
Given what we already know about it, defederation is a compelling option. We can argue about whether to do it preemptively or at the first sign of trouble, but we all know Meta is a bad faith actor. There's no need to speculate about their future, we know they are a problem in the present. Whether Threads doesn't federate, partially federates, or fully federates, defederation is still a decision you can make.
@mastodonmigration@tchambers I get that Meta shouldn’t be trusted. I don’t trust them. And yes, we should pay attention to what they do.
But then, why are you not taking into account the fact they plastered the Fediverse everywhere in what’s a minimum viable product? They had to choose carefully what to, and not to, implements in this version of Threads. And they purposely chose to allocate resources and screen real estate to the Fediverse.
@osc@tchambers Not ignoring that fact. Just suggesting it would be wise not to assume to much from what they say. But, we will all find out, once they actually reveal their ActivityPub federation capability.
@mastodonmigration@tchambers And yet, your thread is full of speculations based on incorrect assumptions or omitted facts
I get (and agree with!) your overall point. But being careful goes both ways: not trusting them too much, but also not speculating against them too much.
@osc@tchambers The caution is against making assumptions. You have decided to take what they are saying and assume it means they will do what you are inferring from their statements. That's understandable, because that's what they want us to infer at this point in time. This is the way vaporwear marketing strategies work. The suggestion is not to do that. You are free to though.
the cut-off is when we start making investments based on our assumptions. If we're just brainstorming ways of seeing this I think it's good to keep an open mind in all directions.
@mastodonmigration The more I think about it and see what's going on with Threads, the more I think they used the Fediverse and Mastodon as a false advertisement to boost numbers and to try and poach from Mastodon. I'll believe Facebook/Meta that Threads is part of the Fediverse if they'd turn it on already. Until then, it's false advertising.
@travis You might be right. Guess we will find out. Definitely believe in the old axiom: "Watch what they do, not what they say." Particularly with this bunch.
@mastodonmigration I hate to be cynical about this, and I'd love to be wrong and I sincerely hope I am, but in the words of Zuck, "They 'trust me'. Dumb fuxcks".
@mastodonmigration hahaha the more time passes & the more is revealed about the app, the less i believe they're actually going to get to the activitypub integration part before they abandon the project
@mastodonmigration The only thing I’m holding out hope for is that Zuck and Musk just sue each other into ruining both platforms.
Was that a multiple choice option?
@mastodonmigration
Marking their words:
"the open, interoperable social networks that we believe can shape the future of the internet.
[..]
We believe this decentralized approach, similar to the protocols governing email and the web itself, will play an important role in the future of online platforms."
Sounds good, "shape the future of the internet" in particular, I hope you feel recognised @evan :-)
Realize that there is absolutely nothing contradictory about algorithms in #Fediverse platforms. Effectively that just comes down to a UI tweak, and any client or interface is perfectly free to implement whatever algorithm it wants.
Heck, keep in mind that newest first is itself an algorithm, although a quite simple one.
Further, one of the huge criticisms I have of #ActivityPub is exactly that it is so instance-focused instead of user-focused so that it does not really help people escape. #Threads would really be a good fit for that philosophy.
So #Meta would use federation to bring a bunch of content from us to its users, while offering to its users the chance to be heard by all of us, at least in theory. That’s good for the company. That’s good marketing for them.
I think you overestimate the downsides of Meta turning on federation.
@volkris Not trying to estimate the upside or downside. Just urging caution in assuming you know what they will implement. Plus, #Threads pawing through content across the #Fediverse and applying their algorithms to it does not seem like a simple matter either technically or #DataPrivacy wise at all. These are the kinds of details where it is best not to make assumptions.
@mastodonmigration I'm literally expecting me being able to follow active accounts of those I followed on twitter previously who have shifted to threads but are not on an existing federated platform (primarily mastodon) and people are able to follow the little things I post or retoot on threads as a platform.
Basically I think we'll get a "meh" over the potential apocalyptic or utopian scenarios frequently presented upon the almighty threads opening their floodgates to the Fediverse at large.
@mbryson We will see. Many people share your expectation that they won't have to join Threads, but will be able to follow people on Threads from within Mastodon. It might be the case, but be prepared to be disappointed.
@mastodonmigration totally fair and I'm definitely prepared either way! Regardless I'm good here though. Nothing against threads in particular, but I just prefer the experience on mastodon instead.
@mastodonmigration No chance of me joining a Zuckerberg data mining app, but it is fun how it launching put Elon's rate limited nonsense to bed immediately. His blue check fanboys made memes to mock people over it, and the memes were relevant for like 6 hours.
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