alcinnz,
@alcinnz@floss.social avatar

I finished reading World Wide Waste by Gerry McGovern. I'd consider it essential reading for anyone working with computers!

https://gerrymcgovern.com/books/world-wide-waste/

It's well cited (though I still need to check those citations) & uses maths effectively to make it's point.

That computers + (surveillance) capitalism is actually worse for the environment than the predigital era. That we can and must move slow and fix things, and fund that vital work directly.

alcinnz,
@alcinnz@floss.social avatar

Don't get me wrong, computers can absolutely help us regain our environmental efficiency. They just aren't.

Not as long as we're:

  • constantly syncing everything to the cloud,
  • expecting same-hour delivery,
  • funding our clickbait via surveillance advertising,
  • buying a new phone every year,
  • using AIs because they're cool rather than useful,
  • running bloated software & webpages,
  • buying into "big data"
  • etc

Computing is environmentally cheap, but it rapidly adds up!

oranger2020,
@oranger2020@mastodon.iriseden.eu avatar

@alcinnz
'Computing is environmentally cheap': not yet anyway.

alcinnz,
@alcinnz@floss.social avatar

@oranger2020 In regards to building the computers: agreed. I was more thinking in terms of usage.

oranger2020,
@oranger2020@mastodon.iriseden.eu avatar

@alcinnz Well asa you connect them to a network you make them use a lot of energy in a number of locations around the world.

alcinnz,
@alcinnz@floss.social avatar

@oranger2020 Maybe it depends on what we consider significant. One of the most expensive activities we regularly do online is a Google, etc search which according to this book amounts to 1080joules, akin to leaving a 60watt lightbulb on for 17s.

oranger2020,
@oranger2020@mastodon.iriseden.eu avatar

@alcinnz Exactly!

jaykass,

@alcinnz code has ballooned so much. Even relatively simple applications these days require large downloads.

unicorn,

@alcinnz
"Computing is environmentally cheap (...)"

Computers are not though unfortunately, their production is an often overlooked massive energy expense that often exceeds the running energy consumption of their entire lifespan.

There is probably a better way to deal with this through repair and reuse, but either way computers are highly environmentally problematic even before they got to compute anything. :/

This article has some good info: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/06/embodied-energy-of-digital-technology.html

devnull,
@devnull@mamot.fr avatar

@alcinnz

  • Accepting e-waste from things that could be reoaired if it were documented properly. But it's not, in the name of "trade secrets" BS…
brokenix,
@brokenix@emacs.ch avatar

@alcinnz its consumer and devs (also consumers by majority, with exceptions) not the pc

alcinnz,
@alcinnz@floss.social avatar

@brokenix Devs tend to be where I focus on my advocacy, though its been a longstanding to topple the status quo with better software!

I do believe there's overproduction of hardware, but that's driven by poor software. And hardware could make things easier on software, but thats a different issue...

brokenix,
@brokenix@emacs.ch avatar

@alcinnz does open hardware helps the problem here in some way?

alcinnz,
@alcinnz@floss.social avatar

@brokenix I think it has potential to do so!

balslev,
@balslev@assemblag.es avatar

@alcinnz but "The biggest gains come from facilitating the electrification of vehicles, where AI and other digital solutions are crucial to optimising the charging of EVs, providing a cleaner and cheaper solution for consumers" https://cms.implementconsultinggroup.com/media/uploads/articles/2024/The-economic-opportunity-of-generative-AI-in-Denmark/The-economic-opportunity-of-AI-in-Denmark.pdf

alcinnz,
@alcinnz@floss.social avatar

@balslev I'd say the biggest gains come from moving away from cars, but since that seems unachievable to many...

I'm not against using AI & computing where it makes sense. Yet the current rush of "generative" AI is anything but mindful! (wrote top-posts before that)

That said the distinction between traditional & generative AI is a fuzzy one...

lstellway,
@lstellway@mastodon.social avatar

@alcinnz
This is such as great thread.

Love the thought Amber shared about mining landfills.

One tiny optimization I do in my day-to-day is watch videos in a lower quality
(though, I wouldn't consider "watching videos" optimal).

In general, when we want to make a change, it's essential to measure change. Is anyone aware of any projects around measuring energy usage?
(I Imagine it's pretty involved: installing/monitoring electricity meters, internet service usage, etc)

urlyman,
@urlyman@mastodon.social avatar

@lstellway @alcinnz

I know that Yellowdog take energy use seriously (from their clients’ perspectives to save money) https://yellowdog.co/

they were the cornerstone and gift at the centre of this story https://seethroughnews.org/see-through-carbon-competition-pilot-review

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