The #RedditMigration isn’t about any app being better than Reddit. It’s about a company that’s grown on the backs of volunteer labour now claiming ownership of that labour.
Reddit didn’t write those posts, draw those illustrations, make those videos. We did.
And Reddit sure as hell didn’t create those communities, nurture them, and moderate them. We did.
I agree with tech writers who say that the average person just “wants their memes”. But Reddit never made those memes. We did.
Content might be king. But who makes content? We do.
I have no doubt that the average person just wants content. But while we might be providing content for free, we’re not dancing monkeys. Who decides why content is made, how it’s made, and where it exists? We do.
The Fediverse doesn’t exist merely as an engine for content. It exists so that people can share what they love.
Why are people coming to the Fediverse specifically? Because we rightfully see ActivityPub as insurance for our content – which, again, is made by and for us.
Not Reddit. Not Big Social. Us.
If I’m giving my content away for free, then so long as it is federated, no one company can own it – putting up gates, demanding payment for my work. Instead, my work is out there, living on 24,000 nodes that presently exist.
Android Authority might dismiss this as “suffering the same fate” – what fate they perceive, I don’t know. But to me, the true “suffering” is when a company like Reddit claims ownership of my work, locking 3rd party developers out from API access.
For this reason, I’m locking Reddit out from my work.
Perhaps the author of this post, Dhruv Bhutani, doesn’t consider that he’s writing for a, well, blog. And that this blog exists on its own domain, with its own design, as its own property. He could have written this entire post on Reddit, but he didn’t.
Why? I suspect it’s because he believes his work has value, and Reddit simply doesn’t give him what he believes is his worth.
Same deal with me. I’m not looking to get paid for my work on Reddit. I do it for fun – always have. But if I’m doing something for fun, it’s still going to be on my terms.
Not all of us creatives are willing to be a cog in Big Social’s machine. That’s why I’m here on the Fediverse right now. I don’t give a damn whether the average person just wants memes. I create for me.
So yeah, Lemmy and Kbin suck. I can live with that – they will both improve. And I have no doubt that, with time, they might prove to be better than Reddit.
But this isn’t about how good Lemmy or Kbin are. Nor is this about the insatiable appetite for memes.
This is about my need to create on my terms – and I’m not alone here.
@atomicpoet@fediversenews Interesting that he cites “Mastodon and Bluesky” as examples of failures. I don’t know about the latter, but every time I come back to Mastodon, it seems more vibrant and active. Seems to me it’s doing pretty well for a failure.
@regnad_kcin@atomicpoet@fediversenews@the_Effekt Because predatory capitalists can’t figure out how to monetize it (yet?), they’re declaring Mastodon a failure. It would be good to be under the radar of these goons.
@MPgh@regnad_kcin@atomicpoet@fediversenews I think we kind of are. They might view it now as a "potential threat", but more in the line of something to watch rather than an all out attack.
The trick for the Fediverse is not to wait and fend off attacks, but prepare countermeasures for when the inevitable happens.
@regnad_kcin@atomicpoet@fediversenews And Bluesky is still an invite only beta with a massive waitlist and very active community. Way premature to call it a failure as well. It isn't even federated yet.
@Llarian @James David Walley @Chris Trottier In other words, #Bluesky has yet to deliver what it has promised. It has yet to demonstrate its alleged killer features. And it does not really give an impression that says it will.
I'm not sure how something showing such consistent growth can be considered successful. It goes up in peaks as various social platforms engage in self-harm, but it's always significant and ongoing. If I had and investment growing like this I'd be rich.
@atomicpoet@fediversenews same fate as mastodon? so... continuously growing over the last 6 years despite various news articles saying its a lost cause?
@atomicpoet@fediversenews one way for those platforms to "gain traction" would be for open source projects to move their subreddits to kbin or Lemmy and to promote those platforms. It will take time to grow.
The software awailable today is working. YunoHost is one example, I use it for years, and I just recently tested Lemmy with it.
The number of owner-operators like Chris, who operates his own single-user node is the key here. It takes all sorts competence - not just familiarity with Linux but all sorts. You need to have your priorities straight, then you need to make the effort. Finally, you must somehow make the right choices to BUILD something that fits your purpose.
On the individual level this takes time to "grow", but that is how the Fediverse will grow. I call this "owner-operated networks", and I am convinced this is what going to make it "invincible".
@atomicpoet@fediversenews I'll feel very content if Lemmy follows the same route as Mastodon. I prefer small, personal conversations and communities. Too many voices and only the shoutiest get heard.
Yea, some scaling and QoL bugs and probably lacking moderation tooling have been surfaced by the scale up, but overall, for my reddit usage, it's fine. Like, maybe it's just me, but I'm not sitting here thinking about the features I'm missing from Reddit.
Ownership of the content you create. You retain ownership of the content -- you can sell it to whomever you want.
License to distribute the content, and the terms under which it can be distributed. You signed all of that away when you accepted reddit's Terms of Service.
Continued availability of your content, and your ability to move the content to another provider. They have an export facility, so you can do this. Maybe not easily (you only get your content, not all the content in a thread or a subreddit; getting into another system would depend on how closely their data model equals reddit's)
The fediverse doesn't address point 1 or 2 at all -- those are the domain of the ToS for the particular Fediverse server you're on. It may not entirely address 3 either, since my understanding is that the server admin has to approve the migration of your account. If you want off of a server and onto another, it's possible that the server admin for the server you want off of could delay or prevent that. That a technical capability exists doesn't mean you'll be able to use it.
This isn't a technical problem, it's an intellectual property contract problem. Reddit, and all of the social media services, are built on their ability to use your IP however they want without crediting or paying you for it. Full stop. Here's the paragraph from the Reddit ToS (for non-EU). tl;dr: Reddit can do whatever they want with whatever you post on reddit, forever, and no takebacks. (Moral rights are basically what you're trying to assert in your post, and you already explicitly waived them.)
When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content.
@atomicpoet@fediversenews I wonder sometimes if these authors were around when Digg shot itself in the foot and everyone moved to reddit. Reddit was very rough. It was opensource too. It felt the way federation feels today.
I used to think that all social media attempts to monetize were doomed to fail b/c the people who make what they’re selling are doing it for free and could do it on their own. Maybe that is true
Mastodon/Fediverse makes it easier for artists (inc. comedians, writers, etc.) to do it on their own
@atomicpoet@fediversenews That article is nuts too because mastodon is thriving.
The Fediverse is doing well because of the quality of people joining it.
@atomicpoet @fediversenews The question is, do we want the millions of reddit-users now all migrate to Lemmy / kbin / <any other fediverse software>?
I don't think so. Both Lemmy and kbin are singles developer projects. Give them time to grow, taking in new users bit by bit every time something happens at reddit. That way, the projects have time to become more robust, more secure and so on.
This event now is a good first step to get Lemmy/kbin in the public eye. After that let time do its work.
@atomicpoet@fediversenews Reddit's "useless internet points" karma mechanism effectively "gamified" content sharing, but it is strikingly similar to the Facebook/Instagram "likes" count that is known to cause real harms to mental health. For that reason, many Fediverse destinations are treading carefully around "exposure metrics."
Still, considering why people created and shared so much for free on Reddit, the answer has to be exposure. Some of those people will go wherever big audiences go.
@atomicpoet@fediversenews What media pundits may be missing is that the Fediverse being what it is will, intentionally, fracture the Reddit audience.
Maybe having a few people who are really engaged with one another, thoughtfully and personally, is actually better than tossing your meme into the writhing throngs of pseudonymous bacon-lovers?
Maybe having several instances with different versions of a "funny things" community is actually a good thing!
@aaronbieber@atomicpoet@fediversenews From time to time, I suspect that fracturing the audience is the point; in both the Twitter and Reddit cases. There’s a danger that various communities who barely tolerate each other right now might find common ground in the upcoming political milieu, so they must be isolated before that happens.
That sounds like some "conspiracy theory". As most "fact checkers" evidenced lately, conspiracy theories are closer the truth than "news" or even "science".
Which is why I believe balkanizing the Fediverse is essential.
Keeping people OUT now is more difficult than "connecting everyone".
Especially becasue its so easy to offend, so easy to piss off people you know absolutely nothing about - as so many behave as if being a fricking telepath is mandatory before you first reply to anyting.
@FourOh@atomicpoet@fediversenews One possible theoretical underpinning of all of this, which I've used to make sense of many different ways that people come together or grow apart is described in Charles H. Vogl's book "The Art of Community."
I do not understand the first thing about "building communities", I never have.
This is also key - limiting yourself to what you know, what you care about.
I love to "build" proof of concepts. In my job as a manufacturing engineer, online as a Debian hacker, on the Fediverse as a shitposter. I build "products", without any "community" attached.
I do suspect to know what demolishes "communities" though...
We all see our civic life increasingly being polarized by people who cannot differentiate between civic activity and political activism.
Then we all read, hear, watch people pretend to be "expert" about everything.
One of those "products" I have "built" is the "Residential Owner-operated Networks", or RON.
Its a well-circled and rounded software stack, for my own condo complex. Its purpose is to provide slow but free of cost internet connection to anyone, no logins, no tracking, no ads, no collecting any sorts of information. The MAC address of the device (not the user, not the person) which is abusing the privilege is blocked. Crime is dealt with by the police.
In case of power failure the RON has a local WiFi network, and there are electric generators owned by a number of home owners to power them. The RON has everything in place to work with the local officials - it does not relive them from their responsibilities and it does not assume their authority.
This is a "product", not a community. Its cost is not sustained from the Assessment Fees, because this product does not allow the HoA any saying. If the HoA decides to take control of it they are going to be taken to court. They are locked OUT.
You cannot build a "community" over the RON, it has to be limited to a functional product - and prevent any "community" from disabling it, from destroying it.
@FourOh@atomicpoet@fediversenews I would submit that the RON, in the way you've described it, is not unlike a governance structure.
It lacks some important details, but I'm not sure where you were going with this.
For "communities" to exist beyond physical humans meeting up to do CrossFit (or whatever), you need some kind of a platform, and the more user-directed it is, the better.
The system's boundaries naturally represent the community's desired boundaries.
The first thing about the fediverse few people understand is the communication protocols - ActivityPub is being the more prominent, and so representing an Achilles' heel. There are a few matured others like the Zot and Zap. Lemmy is bringing another one, and its still relatively new.
The second is that the fediverse (supposed to be) owner-operated. So large nodes should be shunned, not celebrated. "We" are not suppose to build them up - we supposed to fragment them, imitate them (imitation is admiration), to prevent what's happened to reddit.
Every massively populous forum eventually going to be overtaken by tyrants because its the very nature of tyranny to rule by intimidation, censorship, deception. It happened to Google, Wikipedia, Reddit, and countless others.
As long as you are small, limited in scope, you represent a platform you have mastered - any or all combinations - tyrants will avoid you.
@atomicpoet@fediversenews
Yes. Finally it's also a question of financing. Using the fediverse means you need to donate voluntarily. Nothing is for free.
Only three models exist: You can be the product/pay with your data, pay a fee to a company (and often enough still are a product) or you donate/pay your instance admins. There's no other sustainable plan.
There might be other ways, and this is in my focus.
I am a mechanical engineer and I am building a machine shop in my garage. "destop" 3D printing, CNC routing - then "portable" welders, table saws, metal forging and casting furnaces, and so on.
The capacity and the skills maybe used to barter locally for more resources and the small amount of money to run the node(s).
Turning intellectual assets into resources, on the local level, could bring about more "sustainable plans".
I am a self-trained web2 infrastructure expert, I mastered Debian sufficiently enough to build any combination of RFC-compliant service stack. As long as I can but my router onto the DMZ I can build anything. Or, as an alternative, use the VPS.
Combining that with experience and capacity in the machine shop is a niche - yet something that is going to be in increasing demand as the "maker" community grows. Not to mention the potential for local "manufacturing associations", training and evaluations, help wanted.
Finally the Cloud, bridging web2 into web3, the Industry 4.0 stuff, blockchains, the AI - being able to separate the hype from the realities is a helluva skill in high demand.
You tell me... battery-based electric vehicles are charged from a diesel-generator, they lose over 50% of that energy due to leaking, internal resistance, cell-balancing, heat, extra weight.. They "store" electricity with zero shelf-life - replacing gasoline or diesel with months of self-life. Their container is volatile toxic, expensive chemical batteries - replacing cheap, plentiful and safe stainless steel fuel thanks.
You tell me if this is a parody account, a bot, or an AI-generated nonsense.
On massively populous forums the trolls and the control-freaks ALWAYS (always = without exception) going to derail the conversation such as the one I presented on the battery-based electric vehicles.
If the Fediverse is to survive, and to grow, and to gain more credibility the fact-based conversations must be preserved.
Which means small but lots and lots of nodes with few users, sustained by the "owner-operator".
I present a solution, where large nodes should be avoided as its there where people who have nothing else to offer but arguments gather. Where discussions devolve into arguments, and at the end nothing gets done, nothing was built, nothing was fixed or replaced.
Lemmy might be a good fit for this. If you manage to build a focused-enough community for makers and other manufacturing pros and supporters - you can keep your federation only to nodes with a compatible focus. Lemmy is going to be good at keeping focus, keeping irrelevant traffic out of your network.
Its an evolutionary step, and if anyone is aware of other projects like Lemmy please share!
Lets assume you are in a thread discussing the idea of "free of cost internet". Then someone new responds talking about being so poor and the high cost of shitty slow ISPs, and injects something like "as a single trans parent"...
On a small node, operated by me, I can deal with that effectively. On a large forum if I say something like "nobody cares about how you do your monkey-business" the damage begins to paramount.
Eventually you get so much unrelated, irrelevant content that you lose interest. However, there are far more people are interest now that the conversation became politically charged.
Something like that, that's the way I see it. I tried twitter, I tried facebook, I tried gab, truth social. I never used reddit, but I am convinced its good that people with little else to offer to have these forums where they can went.
But eventually, you need to build your own firewall, which could be building limited-focus, limited-reach fediverse nodes.
@atomicpoet@fediversenews nicely put. what people like this blog author don't get (or forget) is that reddit was very much once considered a power tech nerd site for "those in the know" and we built into something much bigger
@atomicpoet@fediversenews something needs to happen with the people behind lemmy, the people behind it I juat cant support, the Main dev supports a fascist writer and most of the older lemmy users are tankies even the dev is
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