@Miro_Collas Amazing that all these comments about Israel and it's "democracy" on a post about them have committed one of the worst war crimes of our time.
@faab64@Miro_Collas@palestine they didn't send Putin to ICC for mass graves in Bucha and other places. They somehow got triggered about tens of thousands of kidnapped children. I imagine they get molested by pedos, brainwashed in some military schools and such, do slave labor in Magadan deathcamps. All the bad things!
@Miro_Collas I don't think that is the only reason, Germany has gone full fascist against Palestinian protesters and UK and France making protests illegal is just have nothing to do with US pressure.
We are seeing an amazing turn into suppressing citizens rights in support of a foreign country and it's illegal and immoral acts.
I honestly have problem understanding this, it can be Holocaust guilt, Islamophobia, Racism, Money, pressure from Israeli interest groups or all of the above, but it is just hard to accept that countries who were so quick to cut Russia off all international organizations, blocked their airspace, kicked them out of international sport and blocked and confiscated the money, investment and property of Russian citizens (not Russian government) is doing the EXACT opposite to Israel.
It just doesn't make sense. Specially after 200 days of clear and documented violations of almost every international law by the Israeli military and government in Gaza and occupied west bank.
@faab64@Miro_Collas@palestine
Israel can do no wrong it seems & to criticise it is antisemitic because its the Jewish state as if criticising the Israeli govt is hating Jews
@faab64@Miro_Collas@palestine Perhaps it is a misunderstood "Holocaust Guilt". However, we must never forget this gigantic crime so that similar things can never happen again. But the following should be noted:
Criticism of the Israeli government's policies must not be confused with anti-Semitism.
And anti-Semitism must not be disguised as criticism of the policies of the Israeli government.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 1. I think very few people in Israel actually wanted to elect extremists to the government. But the Likud party and Netanyahu have made a kind of pact with the devil to stay in power. So you can't condemn the entire Jewish population in Israel, but only individuals. Nevertheless, the world must intervene if there have already been 34,000 deaths in the Gaza Strip, which has also been confirmed as probably correct by various UN agencies.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 4. The question dividing the Israel population along the political borders, is if there could be a Palestinian state. They should do again a poll with the question, if there could be a Palestinian state without Hamas but with Fatah.
Besides, looking on Wikipedia, a left party made a big plus at the last elections, similar to a religious, extremist party, apparently because of a clever marketing during the election campaign.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 1. Admittedly, I know not many things about Israel's politics. But reading the posted article, I'm contacting some issues:
Of course, Israel people demand the release of the hostages, everybody would do that. But furthermore, they are demanding a date for new elections. Probably, because of the security faults. Apparently, Israelis repeatedly show a historically low level of confidence in the prime minister.
@realskibidi
All true, apparently. However, the important point here is that they support what is being done in Gaza (well, a majority do). And a majority have voted right wing parties in past elections.
As to your point 4, it is up to Palestinians to select their own government. And if they vote for Hamas, then so be it. Fatah (the current PA) is a puppet of Israel.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine I think in Israel many people voted for the coalition around Likud because they wanted stability and therefore wanted to keep Likud (and not HaTzionut HaDatit) in power. Besides, there are always reasons when the people vote for extremist parties. In the Gaza Strip probably due to the history of the last decades. Perhaps Fatah is seen as a puppet of Israel because they are pragmatists who want to improve the lives of Palestinians under the current conditions?
@realskibidi
Whenever Israel attacks the West Bank, the Fatah police are there to help the IDF, not Palestinians. This has been reported over and over again.
The best that can be said about Fatah is that they are analogous to the Judenrat: forced to act on behalf of the oppressor against their will. And maybe they are.
It remains that it is up to Palestinians to select who governs them, and no one else.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine I think Hamas is an extremist organization, similar to the NSDAP back then in Germany. Of course you can only work with such people if there is no other way. And the attack with the hostage-taking is a crime as bad as 9/11. I don't know how much Fatah is cooperating. Are there any other Palestinian organizations that could take responsibility for the government?
Also, what options existed for Palestinians, since all attempts at diplomacy with Israel were torpedoed by Israel? Are they to accept occupation forever?
As for other groups, there are some, but I say again, it is up to Palestinians to select their government, whatever that might be.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 1. I know that Israel's government has been treated with kid gloves in the past, possibly because of the "Holocaust Guilt" discussed earlier (although the immeasurable crimes of that time must never be forgotten). And that different standards are applied to Israel and the Palestinian territories. Nevertheless, as a voter of an extremist party, you should not be surprised if no one wants to have anything to do with you if they come to power.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 2. The present has been shaped by the past, Israel by the Shoah and the Palestinians by the history of the Nakba, which continues to this day.
@realskibidi
Israel have destroyed every moderate and peaceful organization and movement viciously in the past 30 years. Hamas was a bastard child of Israeli Mossad who wanted to weaken and divide the PLO and create the perfect enemy for israel to justify their criminal treatment of palestinians.
Even inside Hamas, the non militant leaders were always the first target of IDF attacks, like the case of the terror attack against Hamas hostage negotiator in Lebanon that closed the door for any future compromises between Gaza and Israel.
I honestly don't know if you understand how Israel has been acting in and outside occupied territories, the post October 7 have opened up some of the most disgusting dirty tricks of Israel to radicalize both domestic and outside supporters of Israel who blindly believe in any kind of lies spread by them.
From the Maas rape stories, to 40 beheaded babies as well as hiding the brutality and criminal attacks of IDF against both Palestinian and Israeli targets on that day should have been a wake up call for those who don't understand how far Netanyahu and his gang are willing to go in order to achieve their goals.
The pamphlet here is one of the most pathetic and obvious such attempt, posted in many places in US to discredit the antiwar movement among students and Jewish communities there. @Miro_Collas@palestine
Oh, seriously guys? Haven't you heard that phrase before?
I meant to ask if the obvious straw man/fabricated misinfo people it targets are in the room with us. What I've basically said is "are there people who think that way here".
@rato
Not everyone understands your twisted humor. It's 7 months into a genocide and people still repeating the lies of day one so it's hard to know if you are being sarcastic or just Israeled. @palestine@realskibidi
@faab64
Farhad, in fairness most people are in fact, totally unaware of the history - this obviously because in the west, all that they have heard al their lives is propaganda originating from Israel. I only started learning in the last 10 years or so, and am still learning.
So, I think there is a difference to be made between those who knowingly spread lies (Zionists) and those who simply don't know - and may be willing to learn, as I did.
@realskibidi@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine
Of course there are other organisations. I know a bit about one (al Mubadara - the PNI) that has long advocated non-violence & a 2 state solution (although they are on the verge of giving up on the latter).
Of course, #Israelis hate PNI as #Hamas, & arrested the Sec Gen (a Doctor) & smashed his knee with a rifle butt.
It seems the only person who could successfully unite Palestinians is Marwan Barghouti, currently serving life sentences in Israel.
@realskibidi
Are you living in a different world than I do?
Haven't you seen what is going on daily in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and other places in occupied West Bank?
Or you just in denial and don't want to see the daily terror Palestinians have been living under with blessing of PA and it's unelected president?
I honestly want to know if you live in a parallel universe where Fatah (well I haven't used that name in ages) worked to improve lives of palestinians while their homes gets raided, raised to the ground and kids as young as 5 yo get captured by IDF and held in police custody without charge or access to legal representation. @Miro_Collas@palestine
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 2. The question mentioned in the article “Which of the two goals of the war is more important” allowed only two answers: “securing the release of hostages” or “victory in the war against Hamas”. No other possible response.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 3. Concerning the other mentioned question “What is the best way to obtain the release of the hostages?”, I read simply that 81.5 percent answered that “military pressure should be applied to Hamas so that it agrees to acceptable conditions for the release of the abductees.” Other possible answers are not noted.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 5. I'm absolutely sure that for example the people of Tel Aviv wouldn't have elected f.e. Mr. Ben Gvir in a direct election.
Israel elected Netanyahu as PM in many electrons since 2009 except for a short period in 2021-22.
People in Israel have repeatedly shown they do not want peace, but total domination, expansion of illegal settlements, land confiscation, illegal detention of palestinians without legal protection,and since 2022 total fascist coalition government with Ben-Gvir and daily murder of one Palestinian per day up until October 7.
I just don't understand why people don't understand that Israeli society can't be dealth with as a healthy democracy when its foundation is built on apartheid and extreme right religious and racist ideologies.
@faab64@Miro_Collas@palestine@realskibidi
In late October last year the majority of #Israelis showed they supported the #genocidal attacks on #gaza. In fact, many thought the IDF should be killing far more. #Israel is, like South Africa once was, a nation of mostly white supremacists devoted to #apartheid and their own privilege built on oppression, and to treating the occupied, indigenous people as sub-humans.
@realskibidi@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine You can't excuse the #Israeli people so easily. The majority of Israelis support the current Govt. Not only that, the vast majority of Israeli people either approved of, or demanded increased slaughter in Gaza late last year (according to a Tel Aviv Uni survey). This may have changed as more Israelis realised their Govt is increasing the chances of them, their children - & esp those in the #IDF - being killed as the conflict spreads.
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine 2. We should therefore do all we can to support the political opposition in Israel, which has also been rebelling against the judicial reform for months.
Bearing in mind a lot of that censuring talk is really just for show. Not one oligarch has been meaningfully slowed (I’d be glad to learn of any who have) and I’ve just read the UK now deems Russian oil refined elsewhere not to be of Russian origin. The loopholes being for fascists everywhere are seemingly endless.
Also, a ton of ‘seized’ oligarch money and other Russian assets—many billions—sits in limbo.
It could be properly confiscated and used to fund the Ukrainian war effort, but it appears to be easier to extract such sums from American taxpayers than from a banking system designed to be and remaining faithful to fascists.
@f800gecko@Miro_Collas No matter what you think of Putin and his actions in Ukraine, there are 0 legal justifications to freeze, confiscate and liquidate assets of Russian citizens who are not government or military.
It is just sad that legalities were not even an issue when they did that, which explains the reactions toward Israel and Israeli regime supporters, specially those billionaires (not oligarchs, since it can only be used against the big bad Russians). Who actually ARE involved in Israeli government, weapons deals and military not to forget illegal settlements in occupied territories.
As the old Iranian poet said, "strange time is is my dear". The hypocrisy of the west is just truly reaching new heights as time goes.
I agree on the hypocrisy of the West; it is no more evident than in the enormous budget package just passed by the Senate.
I disagree it’s wrong to punish Putin and his criminal friends for their effort to destroy Ukraine.
Prigozhin, remember, was one of them until Putin had his airplane shot out of the sky for having turned against the regime with his slow motion putsch.
If you are ultra-wealthy in Russia, you are a thief either fully with Putin or dead.
@f800gecko
Well my dear that's the worst hypocrisy of them all.
That's the logic of Bin Laden to justify 9/11 and with that "logic" every American who pays taxes and votes for the criminal leaders in US are legitimate targets. @Miro_Collas@palestine
…other than that of the Hasidic Jews of Russia, with whom, for some reason, he goes out of his way to be friendly.
Runs a bigger propaganda machine than Israel and helped install the US president who declared Jerusalem to be Israel’s.
Has doubtless been hard at work behind the scenes to the genocide in Gaza so as to further divide the American moderates who will decide if Trump returns.
Forgive me for wondering if you know what hypocrisy is.
@f800gecko@Miro_Collas I am not your friend and I do not like jerks who call anyone ho doesn't share your disgusting double standard when it fits you but complain about it when it doesn't.
Good riddance, sadly, people like you are not much better than the friends of IDF who call anyone supporting Palestinian rights for Hamas supporters. But what ever.
He was hand-picked by Yeltsin and he replaced those oligarchs he didn’t care for with friends at the first opportunity, but, yes, they helped put him there, and those who remain do so only at his pleasure if they wish to maintain their status.
I understand the anger, but "Shitreal" is not a helpful term. Israel and its millions of citizens (Jewish, Palestinian and other) are there and need to figure in a solution.
Sanctions can be useful, but the first priority in my view is honest and unimpaired news reportage.
Netanyahu and his fascist collaborators know truth is a huge risk & so have been targeting journalists and aid workers.
This represents a soft point we need to relentlessly pursue.
@f800gecko@Miro_Collas@radiofreearabia Israel is a "democracy" who has chosen Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir and the rest of the fascists to represent them AGAIN and AGAIN.
any other nation in the world would have been subject to crushing sanctions and blockade for what they have done to Palestinians, just since the coalition government has come to power.
But sadly, we can't touch them, we have to have understanding for them, we have to respect the minority who are not fascists. In the mean time, we are silently watching war crime committed after war crime with total impunity with gifted weapons and money from US/UK/Germany and EU.
> Israel and its millions of citizens (Jewish, Palestinian and other) are there and need to figure in a solution.
Palestinians don't consider themselves Israeli, even those with Israeli citizenship (~1.5 million or so), and Israel is not a democratic state that represents anyone except Zionists. Not to mention the remaining ~4.5 million Palestinians who are stateless and live under either a siege in the Gaza Strip or military occupation the West Bank
@Miro_Collas@faab64@palestine the EU signed a gas deal with Israel in 2022. There are also trade agreements, and there's, of course, Israeli surveillance tech and weapons, and military cooperation. Always useful to have European police and military trained in suppression when further consequences of the climate crisis hit.
@happymilk
Because they don't follow the required dogma, they say things that those in charge do not want to be said. Dissenting voice are never welcome.
This is true of many "hot" topics, like the Ukraine-Russia conflict. If you question anything that is said in the west, you're branded a Putin-lover. We're supposed to believe what we're told.
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