Hexbear federation megathread

Hey folks

I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.

I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:

  • Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
  • Use arguments rather than calling people names
  • Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual

With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.

On defederation in general

First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.

I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.

Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.

Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.

Regarding hexbear

Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.

The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.

My own experience with hexbear

I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.

Background

My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.

Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

Hexbear user response

Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:

  • Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
  • Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
  • Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier

I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.

Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti.

Hexbear admin response

After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:

  1. They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
  2. They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
  3. They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.

At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.

I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don’t have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.

Where thing stand right now

I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.

Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.

Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.

Alvino-Martins268,

That forum atleast has some sugarbabies in it. Able to date some of them, by playing their tune

Alvino-Martins268,

That forum atleast has some sugarbabies in it. Able to date some of them, by playing their tune

HuntressHimbo,

After reading through the comments here and seeing the level and type of hexbear participation I’ve lost my qualms and am fully in favor of defederating.

keepcarrot,

I’ll be honest, I’m pretty exhausted from just reading all the drama going on. Being hungover doesn’t help.

AreaSIX,

I’m firmly against defederating anyone. It’s sad that so many just want to remove voices they don’t like from a public forum. I believe that we should avoid defederating at all costs, it should be the absolute last measure contemplated after everything else fails. I didn’t like their posts for a couple of weeks doesn’t even come close to being a good reason IMO.

starlinguk,
starlinguk avatar

And I'm against giving fascist lunatics a voice. Defederate them now.

Historical_General,

If you defederate you’d embolden actual fascist lunatics. And be careful equating the long and varied policies of the SU (who had various leaders over that time) with a short stint that Adolf had in eliminationism.

Nioxic,

I vote against. Its not that i have a preference, politically. It varies.

But i dont want all comments to lean towards one side, all the time.

sab,
sab avatar

I mean, if there was an instance of far right authoritarians they would be defederated immediately. If anything, similarly defederating from instances catering to authoritarians on the far left ensures a balancing of the scales.

NuPNuA,

Kind of hilarious that in the midst of this drama, Hexbear themselves have defeded another left wing instance over petty debates about terminology and language. We’re giving them more of a benefit of the doubt at this point than they give their own allies, lol. The far left eating its own in a quest for ideological purity is a song that never ends it seems.

mar_k,
@mar_k@hexbear.net avatar

The far left eating its own

Dude, blajah is as liberal as most instances here. Their top community literally has a banner that says “fuck tankies.” There was a lot of drama between our instances and hostility from the blajah mods/admins (leaking private pms to make fun of, an ableist slur from a mod, saying they’ll ban users over “tankie behavior” or “anything iffy from hexbear users,” etc).

The only way we might’ve seen them as our allies was that we’re both largely queer communities. We never agreed on politics, but were willing to put that aside until all the hostility.

booty,
@booty@hexbear.net avatar

over petty debates about terminology and language

they were defederated over ableism and transphobia of one of their powermods, and the implicit support of those things by the head admin. we take that kind of shit seriously. we tried our best to make it work, but reactionary mods who are ableist in their modlog entries are not compatible with hexbear

Draedron,

If you only took the genocide against ukranians just as serious then you could basically shut the entire instance down

KurtVonnegut,
@KurtVonnegut@hexbear.net avatar

the genocide against ukranians

Which one? The one in the 1930s caused by capitalists or the one in the 2020s caused by capitalists? I take both seriously, and I want the current one to end.

starlinguk,
starlinguk avatar

Hexbear isn't leftist, they just pretend they are. Bit like some other "leftists" led by a guy with a funny moustache about 90 years ago.

Graylitic,

Nobody actually serious thinks Hitler was a leftist. That being said, being a leftist isn’t synonymous with being a good person, or being correct. Stalin and Mao weren’t good people, but they were leftists.

Calling Hexbear users fake leftists isn’t accurate.

fugepe,

Color haired people are not mentally well. What did you expect

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

Ah yes petty debates such as their mods calling people the r-word. I guess that’s the type of language you people tolerate here, given you’ve used it towards us enough times already. Also for bystanders this guy has been banning hexbear users from his little uk politics comm just for being hexbear users lol.

lemann,

Hexbear themselves have defeded another left wing instance over petty debates about terminology and language.

I mean, if users from another instance are constantly attacking users from your instance, questioning their identity and calling them slurs, with the mods and admins maintaining a complicit and dismissive stance, wouldn’t you defed?

If anything HB has all the right to defed, especially with our “tolerant” communities attacking their users for what boils down to effectively a communication and culture difference IMO.

We’re giving them more of a benefit of the doubt at this point than they give their own allies, lol. The far left eating its own in a quest for ideological purity is a song that never ends it seems.

The defed had nothing to do with politics IMO, and the instances being any flavor of left wing doesn’t mean they share anything in common.

Both instances are staunchly LGBT friendly, and the similarities kinda end there.

WhyDoesntThisThingWork,

I mean, if users from another instance are constantly attacking users from your instance, questioning their identity and calling them slurs, with the mods and admins maintaining a complicit and dismissive stance, wouldn’t you defed?

Yes, and is exactly the reason Lemm.ee should defederate Hexbear

Historical_General,

Bigotry against less able people is not allowed on this instance either. I’d hope the admin and mods would deal with people like them similarly in such a case.

mwguy,

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century.

Please never apologize for this. The Soviets were some fucked up people who did fucked up things to tens of millions of people. Nobody should be eyeing their symbology favourably.

brain_in_a_box,

This kind of self-righteousness would be more compelling if it wasn’t always reserved solely for communist symbols. Capitalist, and fascist, symbols are always given a pass.

GoodEye8,

You see a lot of Nazi symbolism? Because clearly fascist symbolism is not given a pass. I’m also not sure what you mean by capitalist symbolism. There’s no universally agreed upon symbol for capitalism, the closest thing is the dollar sign and that has a dual meaning.

So please, be more specific (ideally with examples) with what you mean when you say fascist and capitalist symbols. I’m sure if there’s anything specific (like the hammer and sickle, that was purposefully chosen as USSR symbolism) worthy of banning then there’s probably no issue with the removal of such symbolism.

booty,
@booty@hexbear.net avatar

Because clearly fascist symbolism is not given a pass.

the literal fasces is all over US government buildings and symbols

PretentiousDouche,

Where are you seeing this on Lemmy? Doesn’t seem the the US government gets a pass here at all, I mostly see justified skepticism at best.

Lols,

do you have a list of examples

alcoholicorn,
Lols,

this is pretty interesting, but includes a lot of examples that either dont include a date of introduction or are from before the the national fascist party or even the existence of fascism as a concept

i dont feel like framing examples like that as fascist symbolism is fair or accurate, same as how organisations continuing their pre-nazism usage of the swastika isnt nazi symbolism

Historical_General,

I think the (iirc) Finish airforce recently took down the swastika symbol from their flag.

Lols,

they did, and thats commendable

i do not think nations, cultures or people should necessarily be expected to abandon symbols because they were coopted by abhorrent ideologies or people though, and i dont think that framing the use of such symbols as actual symbolism of those abhorreny ideologies or people is fair or accurate

Historical_General,

I don’t think India should. But the Finish symbol iirc, was taken up around the same time (early 20th C.) as the Nazis did. It’s not a traditional symbol in the sense of cultural heritage. It’s just an interesting pattern that they and Hilter adopted. I think Europeans and others similarly inspired, should take it out. And even in Japanese contexts, as a fellow Axis power, despite their Buddhist heritage.

brain_in_a_box,

You see a lot of Nazi symbolism

Yes, I do. All the time.

Because clearly fascist symbolism is not given a pass.

Yeah? You see a lot of people going after the Union Jack or the Stars and Stripes?

So please, be more specific (ideally with examples) with what you mean when you say fascist and capitalist symbols.

You declared a symbol of communism to represent the bad things the USSR did, so any symbol that represents any capitalist ideology or system that has ever had anything bad done under it. Let’s start with most national flags.

insurgenRat,

pretty true for all flags really.

eodc, (edited )

Thanks for all the work you’ve been doing admining this instance @sunaurus.

My immediate opinion from this post was that we should defederate from hexbear, since I’ve felt myself put off of browsing lemmy because of what I perceived as their annoying comments. I’ll admit, by annoying I meant constantly bringing up leftist ideology into threads where it was just plain irrelevant. I’m liberal myself, just not as leftist as the average user on hexbear is. But sometimes I just want to browse my memes in peace, y’know?

But after reading through the comments on this thread, I’m now a little more apprehensive about supporting defederation. It’s now apparent to me that the reason why their comments have leftist undertones is because that’s what characterizes the instance. Hexbear wouldn’t be hexbear if their userbase were centrist or right-wing. Hexbear is hexbear precisely because (for better or for worse) they provide a home for leftist ideology.

Furthermore, there are a couple of reasons why it seems like they’re “brigading muh memes.” One is because they’re such a large instance (larger than us, but certainly smaller than lemmy.world). The other is that their interface doesn’t allow downvotes, so the only way they can voice disapproval of an opinion is by literally voicing their disapproval in the comments. I personally think this is an excellent system, if it can be moderated well. I see it as promoting discussion. However if it’s not moderated well, good discussion ends up getting drowned out by the shouting of village idiots.

A lot of people are pointing out how 1.4k of the 1.8k comments on this post are from hexbear users. That’s ~5.8% of the instance’s 24.5k member userbase. The remaining 400 or so comments come from a mix of lemm.ee and other instances. Assuming all 400 other comments from from lemm.ee users, that’s 2% of our userbase. Undoubtedly, the percentage is even less because that assumption is definitely false. Thus, hexbear has a participation rate that’s almost triple ours (with the best case assumptions in our favor). I’m sure the probability of encountering one (or many) of their village idiots is high. This probability is undoubtedly increased due to the fact that their instance systematically encourages participation because of their lack of downvotes. And if Trumpists demonstrate anything, it’s that stupid likes to participate.

I’m intentionally avoiding using the word “discussion”, since I recognize that participating in a thread and discussing in a thread are two very different things. Both village idiots and good-faith intellectuals participate, but only the latter’s participation can be characterized as discussion. I’ve seen both types of hexbear users in this thread.

I’m wary of us defederating from hexbear. It seems like we’d be condemning a political community for the actions of their (admittedly rather vocal) village idiots. On the other hand, it’s not clear to me if that community’s moderators really care about controlling their village idiots, especially since they are undoubtedly wreaking havoc on other communities. My guess is that the wisest course of action is to wait and see how their rule changes take effect. If their new rules are able to control their village idiots, then I see no reason to defederate.

imaqtpie,
@imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works avatar

Where can you find hexbear.net user statistics? I’ve been trying to find those numbers for a while; they don’t show up on the-federation.info.

Also, FWIW I think Hexbear is an integral pillar of Lemmy and defederating from them would be a mistake, especially seeing as lemmy.world has already done so. I believe that it’s critical for other large instances to maintain federation with Hexbear and work through these disagreements.

Any large instance is guaranteed to have trolls, fools, and malicious actors. As long as the admins of the instances can come to an understanding and work together, conflicts between individual users can be dealt with. Defederation is a last resort for extreme cases and it’s rather worrying how frequently it has been discussed all across Lemmy in the past two months.

eodc,

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/bfbdf065-f89b-4f59-a3f2-c1649122db5a.webp

You can see instance statistics at the bottom of the sidebar. Above are stats for lemm.ee. You have to be on the instance homepage though, or else it will display stats for the current community you’re on.

TheGamingLuddite,

It was commonplace among leftists to oppose US military hegemony, NATO, and Raytheon pre-2022, even for relatively lib leaning spaces. This position became basically unacceptable if not bannable in so many left leaning spaces within a matter of months, which should scare you a lot more than the existence of one community where the sentiment has remained the same.

NuPNuA,

In the UK, at least, being anti-NATO was always a very far left thing that only the true headbangers endorse. The centre to moderate and even some of the more sensible further left people could see why it was required.

CrypticCoffee,

Yup. British leftie here. I don’t like NATO, or trust it, but it has a purpose to serve, and the last few years have definitely demonstrated it. I don’t think any sane minded person could not justify Putin’s actions in Ukraine without tying themselves in knots. White NATO has unreasonably expanded against their word in recent years, raising cities to the ground is never justified, attacking civilians and constantly hitting civilian infrastructure is never justified. It’s a horrific speed run on collecting all war crimes, it seems.

GoodEye8,

White NATO has unreasonably expanded against their word in recent years,

Just a heads up, that is actually Russian propaganda. NATO agreed with the USSR to not expand further but the USSR collapsed and Russia has been very adamant that they don’t consider themselves as the successor to the USSR. That means no such guarantee has ever been given to Russia. It’s Russian media that has perpetuated the idea that NATO has somehow promised to not expand.

puff, (edited )

Hexbear user here. No, it isn’t Russian propaganda. Joe Biden himself said in 1997, six years after the collapse of the USSR, that if anything would provoke Russia into war it would be Western military expansion into countries bordering Russia. 25 years later, that same Joe Biden became president of the US and had NATO break the Minsk agreements that would have prevented the Donbas conflict from escalating into all out war. Exactly what Joe Biden said on camera would happen 25 years earlier. Unless you consider Joe Biden himself to be a Russian propagandist, it’s wrong to say what you said. Respectfully, I strongly suggest you read up on the Minsk agreements and Joe Biden’s political history prior to 2008. As was the norm to say in leftist communities before 2022, NATO and its expansion is in fact a bad thing.

Edit: want to add an edit to say that while hexbear users are notorious for shit posting we are also happy to discuss things amicably on your platforms. I don’t see why we shouldn’t be able to discuss areas where we disagree. I’m sure we all have a lot to learn, and I don’t really want to live in an echo chamber like patriots.win or some shit.

BigNote,

Nonsense. NATO didn’t just move into the former Soviet nations and set up shop; to the contrary, NATO expanded specifically at the request of those sovereign nations who knew, better than anyone, that Russia was still dangerous as fuck. To ignore that is to ignore their right to autonomy while hypocritically championing the same right for the Russian speaking population of eastern Ukraine.

That said, it’s not my position that relations with post-Soviet Russia could not have been handled better. I simply reject the idea that NATO expansion forced Putin to invade Ukraine.

TheGamingLuddite,

I know in my heart of hearts that if Xi Jinping tried to use a technicality like this to build a Chinese military base in Mexico or smth that you would be calling him a racial slur so offensive that the last person to utter it was a British imperial explorer who wore a pith helmet and died in 1921.

BigNote,

But your analogy would only be valid if Mexico had asked Xi to build a Chinese military base in Mexico, which they would never do because unlike Russia’s neighbors, they’re not worried about being invaded by their stronger neighbor.

TheGamingLuddite,

You’re missing the point (even though you’re also wrong about that because half of America’s political class is advocating an invasion of Mexico right now), the line you’re spewing is deliberately obtuse sophistry designed to dismiss NATO’s obviously duplicitous behavior as acceptable.

It’s a hollow state-created line designed to erode critical thinking, like calling the Iraq War a “US-Led Intervention” or calling the Ukraine War a “Special Military Operation for Denazification”.

CrypticCoffee,

It was actually the BBC that documents this, and those expansions. Foreign policy wise, it’s about as imperial as it comes. It’s pro-Israel, pro-Ukraine, pro-NATO.

Even if the point you raise is technically correct, knowing interests in that area are uncomfortable about that and pushing through that, could be construed as a little antagonistic. The west had nuclear non-proliferation treaties in this regards post the cold war to remove tensions. This was one of those policies aimed at de-escalation. Even if it’s technically legal, choosing actions that will piss off countries you’re trying to work through de-escalations with either stupid or antagonistic.

I think the Russian propaganda line is that NATO started this, so Russia are justified. To make it clear, Russia aren’t justified to invade a country and commit atrocities, but even then, in any situation, if you cannot look back at your own actions, and think is there something we could have done differently, you’re doomed to repeat the same mistakes. There is often this weird view that your side can do no wrong. The reality is, both can, and there can be multiple assholes countries around the table, even if one is a far bigger asshole country.

NuPNuA,

Anti-imperialism get being opposed to, defensive measures I don’t. Clearly Putin’s actions have shown he would have tried to claim back other parts of the former Soviet Union if the protection wasn’t there in the past.

TheGamingLuddite,

Every aggressive act that has ever occurred, even Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, has been justified as a defensive action. So it’s important to look at the means by which NATO has expanded which is by arming far right stay behind groups, electoral subterfuge and massively destabilizing coup d’états. Look into operation Gladio, in no way is this an authentically defensive organization.

FrozenH,

Okay, of course every aggressive act has some form of excuse/justification that is given/believed by the aggressor. That doesn’t mean that it was actually a valid justification. Of course it is important to look back to see what events and actions aided in creating the situation that allowed for aggressive acts to take place, but it doesn’t change the fact that in many of these instances, including that in Ukraine is the aggressors fault, and is unjustified. The events following WW1 created a situation in Germany that allowed Fascism to thrive, and there were many decisions made by the West and the USSR that led to some of the atrocities in WW2, but that doesn’t change the fact that the actions of Nazi Germany were unjustified and reprehensible.

A problem that I see is that a lot of replies and statements that immediately place blame on the West/NATO while glossing over the fact that the main contributor to the war in Ukraine is Russia. It is important to highlight that actions taken by the west played a part, but not without recognizing that Putin is the aggressor and is at fault for the invasion.

Cjwii,

Yes saying I would wear the symbol of a literal genocide is a joke hahaha

brain_in_a_box,

wtf is ‘the symbol of a literal genocide?’

oregoncom, (edited )
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

You unironically support people who do have swastika tattoos. Azov members have been caught with those tattoos since before the war even started lmfao. This isn’t some niche thing even mainstream media is reporting on it now.

GarbageShoot,

Mainstream media reported on it for years prior to the war anyway. Just go on Google and filter by date to before that February.

alcoholicorn, (edited )

Earliest sign I remember was way back, before the snipers started, there were some widely publicized pictures of protesters with barricades that had nazi artillery.

My first take was that it was like Minnesota’s confederate battle flag, but in retrospect, the lack of red flags (or other soviet imagery) should have been a red flag.

Cjwii,

I literally made no statement of supporting anyone ironically or unironically. You seem to have a fascination with swastikas and seem to want to justify your desire to embrace nazi ideology.

I do not.

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

I don’t know who you’re trying to convince with these mental gymnastics. Debate pervert behavior like this is exactly why I want you people to defederate from hexbear. Defederate from Hexbear. Leave Lemmy. Go back to Reddit. You’ll be happier there.

Cjwii,

You people? wow, just wow. Thanks for proving everything once again.

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

The oppressed and downtrodden minority group that is lemm.ee commenters. For too long have the people of lemm.ee suffered under the oppressive yoke of hexbear’s posting power! America, my people the posters of lemm.ee yearn for freedom!

ElHexo,

It’s a cultural genocide

Cjwii,

I can’t handle your bigotry anymore I’m done for now. Enjoy your spite and hatefilled life.

alcoholicorn,

Amazing bit.

oregoncom, (edited )
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

The bigotry of Hexbear users against the vulnerable and oppressed people of lemm.ee can no longer be tolerated. The chauvinistic hexbear-centric attitudes of hexbearians must be eliminated! Hexbear supremacy is the greatest threat to the fediverse!

AreaSIX, (edited )

Shitting on lemme.ee because of one commenter is about as reasonable as hating on hexbear because of some trolls. Why don’t you two just attack each other personally instead of dragging your instances into it? Maybe, just maybe, you guys being immature doesn’t represent your whole instance and is just representative of your own shitty attitudes.

oregoncom, (edited )
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

I’m one of the good ones It’s those other lemm.ee users that are bad

stop being an instance traitor uncle lemm.ee. For too long have the hexbear-chauvinists preached an ideology of lemm.ee inferiority! Have lemm.ee pride! lemm.ee solidarity!

but all kidding aside the entire point of this thread is that we hexbear users are being judged for our instance (not unreasonable, it’s a lemmy instance, if you really care you can set up your own in like 2 hours), but any time we throw the rhetoric back at you you act like I’m attacking some immutable trait of your character. As through being lemm.ee poster is some fundamental part of your identity and me making fun of lemm.ee is equivalent to me being a racist (which by the way we see plenty of from people on your instance). Personally I don’t want to federate with you people. Using civility as a cudgel and applying double standards to everything is something that your instance clearly gets from reddit culture, and I don’t want to deal with it. I already have to deal with this BS in the real world.

Lols,

most people do not pick their instance based on political ideals, and lemm.ee mods/admins do not heavily dissuade or encourage specific political views

hexbear has probably gotten you are used to all members of a given instance having relatively similar views, but you should get used to users of other instances not automatically being nazi sympathising shitlibs because they have @lemm.ee behind their name

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

If you’re sitting at a table of 12 and there’s one nazi, you’re sitting at a table of 12 nazis.

Lols,

catchy, but youre here on the fediverse commenting on the same posts, talking with the same people and sitting at the same table as the rest of us, you just came in through a different door

your shitting on folks because they used the wrong https isnt out of some political or moral conviction, its shoddily disguised tribalism

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

You just claimed that our instance “dissuade or encourage” specific views so which is it? We’re all the same or we’re evil tankies who censor innocent little smol bean nazis? lmao just defederate from us. Get off lemmy. Go back to reddit.

Lols,

You just claimed that our instance “dissuade or encourage” specific views so which is it?

i didnt say that, stop getting hostile over statements you imagined

i said that lemm.ee does not do that

i made 0 statement on how hexbears policies compares to that, just that culturally users there have relatively similar views

second off, do you disagree that hexbears moderators and admins actively endorse and encourage leftist ideals, and discourage liberalism and fascism

We’re all the same

i didnt say that, stop getting hostile over statements you imagined

i said that you are sitting at the same table as the rest of us, despite presumably not being a nazi

or we’re evil tankies who censor innocent little smol bean nazis?

i didnt say that, stop getting hostile over statements you imagined

i definitely thought you censor nazis, do you not censor nazis?

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

The is the worse type of debate pervert semantic arguing. Defederate from us. Get off lemmy. Go back to reddit.

Lols,

can you explain how im supposed to respond to you taking issue with things i never said, so that i can be less debate pervert semantic arguing in the future

CrypticCoffee,

I’m not going to defend Azov, or their beliefs. Their prominence came when they were defending from invasion, including Mariupol in which civilians were killed, their homes were destroyed, and the city starved and flattened.

While no sane person thinks Azov is a good thing, why is the existence of misguided assholes worse than the flattening of a city and killing civilians?

“This city got razed to the ground” “Good, the people defending those civilians were bad people with bad tatoos”

How can you make that argument and consider yourself the good guy?

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

Not here to argue about russia/ukraine. Person I responded to was the one that mentioned swastikas and had an apparent obsession with them.

seathru,

I’m against it in principle. But until the tools are available for users to block an entire instance, I understand why people want it.

Personally, I’ll probably try to whip up a greasemonkey script to accomplish it.

CaptainPike,

I’m more exhausted at everyone constantly going to defederation as a first response to not liking an instance.

seathru,

Seems like the better answer is a tool available to users to block instances they don’t like.

terny,

Sync has that feature, I block instances and communities I don’t like. It should be a highly requested feature, the more people that voice that opinion the better.

GenBlob,

I have no stance on them but I do find the people that post from hexbear to be a little irritating. A lot of them leave low quality shitpost with massive images and I know that’s a bug but it still ruins it for everyone else.

Awoo,

with massive images

This is fixed and will not be a problem soon. It’s our emoji but they show up big on other instances instead of emoji sized.

GenBlob,

Okay, That’s great news. That was my only complaint besides the shitposting but that can be ignored

Omegamint,
@Omegamint@hexbear.net avatar

It’s actually really unfortunate because the emojis on hexbear are one of the best things about it. I had a lot of fun stealing my favorites and adding them to my friend group’s discord for awhile.

Devs really just need some time to sort them out

Mindfury,
@Mindfury@hexbear.net avatar

we’re also trying to get the whole userbase on top of this issue and encourage everyone to post emojis within spoiler tags when we post on other instances

(i’m not a mod or admin, there’s just been a lot of discussion about how vector-image emojis are gigantic and how to deal with it)

oregoncom,
@oregoncom@hexbear.net avatar

The liberals are censoring my freeze peach. I have the right to post hog! I will not be censored.

ikidd,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Well, bully for you for being even handed, but the instant I can block a complete server, hexbear and lemmygrad are going on it. The shit far outweighs the roses from either of those instances.

Lols,

which is what lemm.ee federation policy should be

Zuberi,
@Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

That’s very lemmy.world of you to say

MashBoilPitch,

Yup. There is only so many ways to say the shit far outweighs the roses. There’s lots of hand wringing because a slim minority of thoughtful posts come from an otherwise pool of bile. You can support lgbtq folks and still be an asshole, as repeatedly proven by that community. The feature to block the crypto neofacist tanker incel hexturds cannot arrive fast enough.

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