Any time period, any style -- I'm interested in seeing different ways of combining these forces, and studying the nuts and bolts of #orchestration.
If you're a #conductor, #choral director, or #composer who has wrestled with this, what would you say are the key do's and don'ts of writing for this combination?
@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic Cherubini’s Requiem. He was Beethoven’s favorite composer; Beethoven supposedly once said that he didn’t need to compose a requiem because Cherubini’s was perfect.
@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic Probably you already know them well, but I may suggest the large Bach's compositions for choir and orchestra (the passions, the mass in b minor, Christmas' oratorio, etc.). Haendel's Dixit Dominus. On a different period: Dvorak's Stabat Mater, Brahms' Requiem. On another completely different style and very surprising, Stravinsky's Les Noces (but not a full orchestra: 4 pianos and percussions). Hope it helps!
@davbucci@composers@classicalmusic
It’s always good to go back to Bach! I heard the Dvorak Stabat mater with the Boston Symphony several years ago and was blown away. (Can’t remember the bass soloist’s name but he was phenomenal.)
@mcmullin@davbucci@composers@classicalmusic I wasn't sure how far back you wanted to go: Monteverdi's Vespers are a blast, and the B-minor Mass a desert island disc. And there's always the NInth and the Missa Solemnis.
@mcmullin@davbucci@composers@classicalmusic Yes, for the same reason some find Brahms unrewarding. Needs lots of stamina, as it's often very high-lying (for tenors and sopranos especially) for lengthy spans, and then with less time than you'd like to recover and re-oxygenate. (The latter is an important point: singers can of course breathe in on, say, a crotchet/quarter-note and carry on, but need longer periods to relax and refill the lungs a few times after a marathon section of music.)
@gordonkerry@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic I could sing both Brahms' Requiem and Beethoven Ninth symphony (last movement of course) as a chorus tenor and I can confirm. I recall the 9th as probably the more demanding vocally. Once the director repeated the whole movement for an encore and it was though managing their vocal resources so to be able to speak the next day. But this is why vocal technique exists, after all. It was an amazing experience, I utterly loved both pieces!
@gordonkerry@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic On a completely different register, may I add Arvo Pärt's Salve Regina to the list? The version with the celesta and the string orchestra is very nice.
@davbucci@gordonkerry@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic I've sung both the German Requiem and Verdi's Requiem (as a bass), and they're both a blast but you can definitely tell that Verdi has his chorus's vocal resources in mind in a way that Brahms doesn't
This will be a big challenge for the composition I’m working on. I’m setting the entire rosary, so it’s just a big mountain of words. It takes ~20 minutes just to say it all, so if I keep the syllables churning at an efficient but not ridiculous pace, it’s at least an hour of music. Overall the text can’t stop for long, but each singer will need plenty of rest.
@mcmullin@xangoh@davbucci@composers@classicalmusic There's a temptation to end up with a kind of galloping recitative which means one can't dwell on single words/vowels/moments and is quite tiring to listen to and to sing. I have just been working on the Hostias section of the requiem and that's pretty talky, so I used the 'hostias...offerimus' lines as a fast moving ostinato in two-part canon, with the 'tu suscipe' and 'fac eas' lines in more slow moving parts under and above the ostinato.
@mcmullin@xangoh@davbucci@composers@classicalmusic Which is a way of sayting that in some circumstances you can present simultaneous cogent information at different speeds, as Mozart does in ensembles in the operas.
@gordonkerry@xangoh@davbucci@composers@classicalmusic
That’s the approach I’m taking too, at least sometimes. The main text keeps chugging along, providing a kind of unity, but can recede into the background, allowing other things to happen. Someone is always carrying that thread, but other voices bring in other material, go off on tangents and so forth. And it doesn’t have to be transparent or cogent always either.
@gordonkerry@xangoh@davbucci@composers@classicalmusic
Exactly—from an interpretive point of view, it’s a chance to represent the sense of meditating, as well as the mind wandering, entertaining contradictory ideas, distractions and doubts, etc. And from a practical point of view, well, the Hail Mary will come around 53 times, so it’s okay if you can’t always catch every word.
for bonkers....
The Rossini Petite Messe Solemnelle (not solemn, not small, but originally for choir, soloists and keyboards) but it is full of silly Rossini-isms
The Dvorak Requiem is a gorgeous big orchestral and choral work (think similar forces to the Verdi, but NOT ITALIAN)
Also, Handel wrote a heap of oratorios, which are all quite interesting in their own ways. THe better known ones are probably well known simply for having good excerpts that everyone knows, more than anything else... But I would suggest Israel in Egypt for seeing how well he can paint with orchestra, while still being very "of his time"
@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic Some random thoughts. Early C20 English composers specialise in this kind of thing - Elgar Gerontius; Vaughan WIlliams Sea Symphony or Five Mystical Songs; Delius Sea Drift; Walton Belshazzar's Feast Britten Spring Symphony. Shostakovich's Stepan Razin is effective. Several Mahler symphonies (2,3,8) and Schoenberg's Gurrelieder give you a Viennese perspective. Ligeti's Requiem is a good example of avantgarde techniques.
@AlgoCompSynth@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic Indeedy, there's in fact a lot of Soviet era cantatas we don't (perhaps thankfully) hear these days. And Britten's War Requiem. Tippett A Child of our Time, Bernstein Chichester Psalms...over to you:)
@AlgoCompSynth@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic I must look it up. (Actually I'm writing a Requiem as we speak, but more along the lines of a Renaissance piece - SATB a cappella. But that's enough about me :)
@AlgoCompSynth@gordonkerry@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic I highly recommend this exciting tale of a thrilling moment in the Cold War when the world fell in love with Russian Romantic music tradition in the hands of a lanky young man from Texas.
@gordonkerry@composers@classicalmusic
Good suggestions—I was looking at the Mahler 2 finale just this morning. (But that may be one where, as @TawnieO noted, it only balances so nicely because there are hundreds of singers.) I love Ligeti but don’t know his Requiem. And oddly, the only English rep I’ve checked out so far is Birtwhistle. I’ll definitely look into Elgar et al.
Bernstein's Mass. I sang it in college. Fantastic work.
Relating to your point 2, i think this is a combo of stark contrast between voice and instruments that makes voice standout and also a conductors' and instrumentalists' strong understanding of good ensemble - they know that choirs are lead so instruments should never overpower them.
@Jacques@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic And bear in mind that Brahms is at the upper end of what is required in terms of stamina and range (at least for this middling choral tenor).
@Jacques@composers@classicalmusic
Good advice! My standard is slightly looser: could I learn to sing it, with practice. (I’m a better composer than sight reader.) This piece also poses a different kind of performance challenge: I’m pretty sure each phrase is singable, but almost none are straightforward, so it’s relentlessly demanding, just one curveball after another. Even if the vocal demands turn out to be manageable, it will still take a lot of concentration.
@mcmullin@composers@classicalmusic How big is the chorus? Looks like you've had lots of terrific suggestions of pieces to study, but many require around 100 singers to achieve balance. If your group is <65, a Bach-sized orchestra should balance perfectly
@TawnieO@composers@classicalmusic
I don’t know who if anyone is ever going to perform this, to be honest, but it’s something I need to write. I’m now scoring it for small orchestra (single winds & brass, marimba/vibraphone, harp, strings). I’m not sure how many singers there would have to be. 16 could cover all the divisi and solos so far, but would invite fatigue. This will ultimately be full-concert length, and they’ll probably need to rest in shifts.
Add comment