Whenever I see comments like this about #Wayland I always have to ask, who do you think would be developing this new protocol? Every single #Linux graphics developers agrees that Wayland is where we're going, the problem is nobody agrees on how it should look
@kkarhan@BrodieOnLinux right, seems you just guess..
another toxic comment calling some random different entity-others toxic. . and random foss software are bad.. based on what?
whatever.
there are people with devuan + wayland + pipewire, people with devuan in infrastucture. (btw, what do you consider critical?)
not everyone is a hater if he/she doesn't like something. so, pls be nicer.
@kkarhan@BrodieOnLinux@bsi
(don't know BSI)
was debian used in critical infrastucture in its 5th-6th year (?) eg. can't recall any potato in space ... mostly small repair shops, isps, hobbyists, etc...
and anyway, noone uses linux mint or manjaro or arch or fedora in critical infra either.. some are even using windoze servers for critical stufff. so, what's the point really?
And yes that is a killer feature that all 3 enterprise distros (#Ubuntu, #SUSE & #RedHat) offer - even tho behind paywalls.
People who use Windows in 2023 are completely lost or just #TechIlliterates and if they use it on critical infrastructure, they should be banned from touching anything w/ a computer!
@kkarhan@BrodieOnLinux so only those who can do better deserve the voice to criticise? This stance has always bothered me. I think any user has a voice to express criticisms, same as anyone hearing those is free to ignore them.
@WindOfChange@BrodieOnLinux I do criticise shit all the time, but most of the criticism against #Wayland, #SystemD, #PipeWire & Co. is just neighsaying from people that refused to #DoBetter in spite of being able to do so but claw themselves on #legacy stuff like #Xorg and #SystemVinit or in case of #Devuan do everything but #SystemD and would rather integrate #SMF which is equally "bloaty" than admit being wrong.
btw. i think there are at least 2 groups who refuses Wayland. The ones you mentioned and the ones without a clue but a lot of opinion.
I by myself have no knowledge either but simply don't care which one is used by my distribution. I trust in Tuxedo to choose the right one. It just has to work.
@rdfhrn@BrodieOnLinux#HPUX and #Solaris are rounding errors AFAICT both are only on life support due to existing contracts and not because #HPE or #Oracle actually want to improve them.
That being said I've seen Solaris & HP-UX in #CriticalInfrastructure (sadly can't say where due to NDAs!) but not as a #Desktop, so I'm pretty shure they don't even have #Xorg installed at all...
And whilst #Debian is a good #Upstream Distro (as both @ubuntu / #Ubunutu and @bunsenlabs / #BunsenLabs are based upon it) I can barely bring myself to even boot it as they had in the past some Stallmanist bs. takes on #Firmware and #Drivers that only harmed users and made their Distro unuseable in several cases.
@kkarhan
Of course they aren't used as desktop systems but some applications requires graphical uis and therefore xorg is installed on our Solaris and has been installed on our HP-UX systems. The reason to use those systems is the support from them for mission critical applications. The world of stocks and banks is quite different some times
@forrestguid#PipeWire - like #SystemD - fixes a lot of issues and I think it's unfair that people literally harass people like #Poettering that do this vital yet thankless work.
People should be thankful that people like him put up with toxic trash of Stallmanists and Haters, because I would've reconsidered if the pay to do so is good enough.
@forrestguid Propably because it was more feasible to do that replacement, as Pipewire isn't just an audio subsystem but an entire multimedia codec and playback pipeline.
Also replacing jack and other tools and flexibly reroute any audion/video stream to any encoder/decoder or playback device and integrating with VAAPI and hardware drivers for said codecs.
#PipeWire is way more general than #PulseAudio and also it does fix a lot of issues, similar to how noone honestly wants #SysVinit back.
@kkarhan@BrodieOnLinux
I wouldn't actually called them bad. Especially Alsa itself is the Audio driver of Linux.
I think they are more outdated and the new solutions tackle the issues that came up in the old solutions that was not fixable without a rewrite. And or fix modern issue and requirements.
@BrodieOnLinux
Change is good, but change needs to be managed. I have a manjaro box with plasma and a choice of X11 or wayland session.
In the wayland session viewing images scaled in gwenview delivers images which are not properly scaled more like postage stamps in a sea of black. My customised favourite list is squashed and order change.
I've no idea if this is a plasma issue or wayland issue. I don't care, I just want it to work So X11 for now.
@coin@BrodieOnLinux nigger support for any Nvidia is broken in current Linux kernels. I cannot boot my gentoo desktop unless I use nouveau. the kernel panics
@coin@BrodieOnLinux if gnome is dropping Wayland only they are going to burn the last of their userbase. you CANNOT game in Wayland. the environment is hostile to it. steam chose KDE because it's the most supported and steam is still anti Wayland. not sure what the push for Wayland is but gaming will decide where the Linux desktop goes. not gnome.
@BrodieOnLinux Who they think they are scraping others, open source and free, work? What's next? Enter in a Xorg conference with a toilet sink and bossing people around?
@BrodieOnLinux That may be a problem, but it's not the problem. The problem is that it's been made default almost across the board and isn't ready to be so. At least I don't think it is.
@BrodieOnLinux I'm probably a victim of "it needs to work for me therefore doesn't work for a lot of people," but screen capture needs to be actually working. Also, more fully featured window managers (which is what I will always call them). That'll take time.
As for mainstream, better Nvidia support is obv. the big one. And application support is still really lacking, at least it is for me.
@BrodieOnLinux@thelinuxcast
With the recent discussion about the ext type protocols makes me wonder if there was ever a proposal for delegation of window management to a separate process while the compositor retained all other features.
May or may not be possible based on the design and security principles but plenty of other software has ways to offload processing to an external process and return results.
@thelinuxcast@BrodieOnLinux for me, screen capture only breaks when apps have bindings to pipewire that don't perfectly line up with the versions of libpipewire on my system, but that should settle once pipewire goes 1.0 (hopefully, soon)
Given that the main Wayland protocol engineers are the same developers that used to work on Xorg and gave up, it seems like they can at least agree that they don't want to recreate the mess that was X11/Xorg :)
@thelinuxcast hitting PrtScn on Ubuntu/Gnome and it does both still and video capture out of the box, maybe it's more of a "but it doesn't work for me" issue.
A lot of perceived Wayland issues are actually more related to the compositor/WM. @jokeyrhyme@BrodieOnLinux
@BrodieOnLinux@thelinuxcast a standarization of the tool of it might need to be graphic stack instead of letting the mess we have with 5 differents compositors and counting implementing whatever functions they come to mind or at least a good practice book telling the what and how to support every required feature. Actually wayland lacks consistency and in a graphic stack is disastrous.
@BrodieOnLinux@thelinuxcast I think we should focus on bringing back a universal method for apps being able to call Wayland directly for what application has focus as offloading that to the DE is really dumb & puts a huge amount of work on application devs that does not need to be there.
But to do that they have to create a privacy & security type gate (macOS) that requires users to approve that level of access to specific apps, & accessibility type apps need it too.
@BrodieOnLinux@thelinuxcast imho if you have handicaps then x11 is the most realistic option as Wayland won’t do you any favors if you need accessibility features enabled & 3rd party apps.
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