It’s frustrating, because there’s a kernel of truth to all this. Government identities exist to manage credits and debts. If you’ve got a driver’s license and you’re caught speeding (or merely accused of it by a cop with a quota to fill), then you can be assigned a debt that can be used to garnish wages or seize property.
But… there’s no secret cheat code to avoiding these debts by simply denying the identity a government has on file isn’t yours. And while we can argue the fairness of the system, I don’t think there’s any doubt of its efficacy. A sheriff and his deputies can absolutely collect, whether you consent or not.
Roleplaying like this is how these folks are coping. It helps give them the courage and the self-determination to resist the guys in uniforms who do the dirty work of the system. Its irrational, sure. But when you get down to material conditions, its either “Believe a crazy mishmash of weird shit so you can justify fighting back” or “Accept the status quo and surrender”.
I swear, I’ve read a few of these and they sound like they’re playing some kinda fantasy tabletop game that’s stupid thick with weird rules and builds, and their staring at all of us like “obviously you can mix a hexblade with an abrant mind for optimal spells and subtle spells, and the DM is pissed I got silvery barbs, but I showed him how it’s an official spell so they should let me use it, but if i get aspect of the moon I don’t have to sleep so I can short rest to replace my spells lots for free and then I can convert…”
It’s always these people trespassing on other people’s property and then wondering why there’s consequences.
It’s not even that hard to get permission. Just register for use of the roads, chip in your money to keep them open and running, and you get to use the government’s property all you like! Just respect their rules like you would any property owner, and you can drive travel on their roads as much as you need. If it were anyone else’s roads, you’d probably get denied and then shot unless you paid a huge access fee. Use of state property is amazingly easy and reasonable.
It’s not even being able to use them, anyone has the right to travel on foot or by non-motorized bike. It’s specifically driving heavy machinery that can tear up the roads or injure someone you need a license for (ie, a car). Though even then, there are still rules to follow as a pedestrian.
Depends heavily on who you are and how much money you actually have. A lot of these SovCits are poor, uneducated, and disconnected from their neighbors. They’re easy marks for legal con-men and law enforcement alike.
If you’ve never had to deal with the legal system before and suddenly you’re at risk of getting your car impounded or your home foreclosed, you’ll be a prime target for these esoteric theories. And, at some point, you have to recognize the legal system as a social construct. It works because we all agree it works. If you’re dealing with a guy from rural Tennessee or small town West Texas - someone who never graduated 8th grade, spent half his life working a gas well or stocking shelves, and whose primary source of news is AM talk radio - they aren’t going to have the background or the incentive to integrate with a modern system. Particularly not one owned and operated by some thugs in law enforcement or a snob judge more interested in a shake down than a fair shake.
You’re back to the old Lockean Social Contract. And once you scrape off all the gibberish, that’s what you’re really fighting over.
When I’m reading one of these, I never know if it’s the nonsensical rant of a stubborn asshole, or someone who genuinely needs psychiatric help. In other words, I don’t know whether it’s okay to laugh or not.
You can see the difference between the ones arrogantly not having licenses or paying taxes versus the ones whose kids are in CPS care or losing their homes.
IMO they’re probably one and the same. The idea indoctrinates those seeking answers to their problems in their hours of need. Then they celebrate their new found illusion, before reality hits them like a brick wall.
We should take issue with the idea not the people.
It’s a little mean because usually they are losing their home or their children to CPS, and while the reasons are always good, they’re obviously pretty desperate. They are the shittiest parents and they all “home school” their children which means making them parent each other or propping them up in front of conspiracy theory videos on Rumble. I’m attaching an example.
Ah right, that’s understandably a bit troublesome… Then I trust your judgement when it comes to vetting the posts. I’m not going to join facebook to get the first hand experience.
Every person on social media whose kids are in foster care will never admit to doing anything wrong. It’s always false allegations according to them. Then they will post all the court and social work documents and it’s such a different story. It’s honestly horribly fascinating how consistent it is, they always insist CPS trafficks children for money from the government as they make money off each adoption, and that it is an attack on Christian family. It’s literally EVERY person involved in CPS on Facebook. I’ve never seen one person admit to anything. It’s sort of horrifying really.
Ok, i have first hand experience in this. My child has severe autism, liver issues, and epilepsy. He had a seizure at school, because the pharmacy was out of stock of his medication and we ran out. They got stock back in but never notified us. So someone, I’m assuming the school but don’t have any proof, issued a medical neglect notice to cps. They came to the apartment, interviewed us(everything was nice they were very cordial) and investigated the claim.
When everything came back verified and we showed the multiple doctors he regularly visits (I had to request extra time off work just to handle his appointments, never mind vacation) they dismissed the case. Yes he had a seizure(it’s not uncommon for him) and yes I understand it’s important he’s taken care of. But there are some cases where it’s truly not medical neglect just our poor health system at fault.
Kid probably had the cavities before going to foster care and they were just the first ones to take them to the dentist. Fortunately, those teeth will get replaced in a few years. Best time to get cavities is before your adult teeth come in, if you absolutely have to have them.
Welp… this post just confirmed to me what I’ve been suspecting about a friend I’ve been distancing myself from for years. I didn’t realize they call themselves “nationals,” so he’s definitely a sovcit of the “moorish” variety based on a few things he’s said. Progressively more and more fucking exhausting to talk to over the last ten years with the woo woo moronic shit and this is the most recent nonsense.
Definitely a sovcit. Some of them are Moorish Temple adherents, usually they are black. Others call themselves American state nationals or sometimes secured party creditors. Or private citizens is another one.
He is black, and I’m guessing moorish temple based on his comments and other things he’s dabbled in. Most of what he dabbles in has roots in black nationalism that I recognize. Funnily enough, there’s occasional veiled nazi shit I think he’s unaware of, though given the far right nature of it all, I’m not surprised his uninformed ass stumbles across them. What is also strange, I do not think he harbors racial hate, though he may have some homo/transphobia. I’m not entirely sure because I’m not interested in listening to that shit. Though it would fit with the far right pipeline.
Sovereign citizens began in a white supremacy group known as Christian Identity in the 1970s so that’s not at all a surprise to me. Sovcits are also HUGELY antisemitic and hate LGBT people. Your friend definitely sounds like he fits to me. He’s probably in some of the Facebook groups I’m in as some of them are Moorish.
He was permanently banned from Facebook last year, lol. Idk what he did, but he has asked me to create an account for him to eventually take over because I don’t have one. I flatly refused and expressed that it is probably best for him anyway. The LGBT hate is definitely an interesting turn for this particular guy, known him twenty years, but given the slow spiral I’ve watched, I’m not surprised. Last time we talked, he mentioned “learning more history,” but he quickly followed it up with “but I’m done trying to convince people” before I could respond. I wanted to ask if that was a promise, goddamn.
I dont think I could spend the time interacting with these folks like you do, I get so aggravated and exhausted with folks like this. If you have ran into him saying dumb shit, I’m sorry, lol.
I have an interest in right wing extremists is why I’m in there, I also have infiltrated all the Nazis of Facebook with my fake account and regularly pass along information to my FBI contact re their activity. Sovcits are just an amusing diversion in extremism for me because nothing they ever do works out for them ever but the ways they try are always hilarious.
Ha, that’s awesome. Good work. I encounter these types because of some of my hobbies, and I can only handle them so much. I ensure my own opinions are known when this shit comes up and that I’m not interested in their dumbfuck opinions, but it gets exhausting exerting this constantly. The cat I’m talking about wasn’t like that back in the day, though. When I met him, he was an anarchist (borderline crust) punk who was accepting of pretty much anyone except nazis. Interesting the paths folks take in life.
They’re so disgusting. Like truly subhuman. One of them told me how her daughter fed her granddaughter meth in her baby bottle to stop her from crying and she died.
The other thing about them is that their pets CONSTANTLY die. Like every day I open that Facebook and another one of their pets has mysteriously passed. Or a family member or spouse and they’ll never say why. It seems to be a very rough life.
Damn, that’s really dark. I have noticed that people who experience a lot of trauma or prolonged poverty sometimes fall into some really shitty thinking structures that either allow them to lash out at others and society at large without the moral hangups most would have. It seems to give them a sense of power they lack in their daily lives. I have some empathy, but certain things are inexcusable and unforgivable. Harming children, animals, and the elderly chief among them.
I honestly think some of them, based on what they have said to me, just have part of their conscience missing. One of the told me his neighbour was the Toy Box serial killer (don’t Google if you don’t know it, it’s really gruesome, basically a torturer and killer of women), and he does live where he did so I think he was telling me the truth, and he assured me the women who were killed were all whores who were asking for it.
Can anyone actually explain what this person THINKS their rights are here? Like, are they just saying “you can’t give me a moving violation fine because I never signed up for that so it’s theft and slavery”? Or is there something more nuanced to their argument that I’m missing?
EDIT: Thank you to everyone who has contributed. My big takeaway from this is that sovcits pick and choose which legal language to believe like a modern American Catholic picks and chooses Bible verses to believe. 👍
You know how dogs don’t necessarily understand the words you’re saying to get them to do a trick, or why they’re doing the trick? It’s basically that, if dogs thought they could make you do tricks by barking correctly. How much lead exposure factors into it is up for debate.
Whoa, sweeping negative generalization about hundreds of millions of people. You slammed a bunch of people off topic, you must have something to get off your chest.
Are you jumping in to help make illogical generalizations seem less nuts? Each judge was nominated by a presidential administration and then confirmed by the US Senate. Do Catholics run all of those branches of governmemt? Are the Catholics in the room with us now?
Literally yes xD Follow much American politics? Ever looked at distribution of religious following in Congress compared to the American public? Not to mention that even non-Catholic denominations can trace their crazy rhetoric back to one-time Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church is the root of evil when it comes to Christian theocracy in all its various shapes and forms.
Stop being willfully ignorant and accept that the Catholic Church, through its teachings over time, has caused irreparable damage to our political systems for literally over a thousand years and continues to do so today.
Or need I begin enumerating all of the heinous laws that are based in Catholic dogma from the past millennia? I’d be happy to start with just the ones that are still in effect today, if that’s easier for you
They think that because they do not “create joinder” by accepting the ticket that it doesn’t apply to them. They will “rescind” them by sending them back with some nonsense written on it at a 45 degree angle in red ink with a thumbprint and believe that cancels the ticket. Here is an example.
I won’t claim I know what the “Truth in Lending” act is, or if it refers to red ink at a 45 degree angle. But even if it is real, I highly doubt it has anything to do with moving violations.
I frequently have to explain to people that the statue of limitations does not mean a ticket from 20 years ago is done with.
The truth in lending law or another similar law does indeed allow you to cancel a loan. Tickets aren’t loans obviously though. The goal is you could get a car loan or a mortgage, and then decide it was a bad idea and cancel the loan, and give back the property.
Ok, so obviously, this doesn’t work, but let’s pretend for a second that it does for my following question. Why would the red writing need to be at 45°?
Some of their reasoning isn’t known. The red ink, 45 degree angle, thumbprint stuff, nobody seems to know where it came from, not even the researchers who follow this stuff. Sovcits are only loosely associated with each other and there are subgroups of them (called American state nationals, secured party creditors, etc), so basically everything they do gets passed around via word of mouth, and each is more nonsensical than the last. It’s only the last handful of years that researchers have been taking a good look at them, but they’ve been around since the 1970s, so a lot of the origins are probably lost to history.
I would argue the drivers license is the proof of a contract stating you’ll follow the law pertaining to it. The ticket is a penalty for breaking that contract, not a new contract. But I know their lack of understanding logic.
The Articles of Confederation had some language in it. Those were quite famously superceded by a little document we call the Constitution. Sovcits will sometimes reference language used in the Articles to claim random stuff that just doesn’t apply.
They’ll also find random laws that can use niche definitions and stuff. As a sort of example, there’s a section of federal law that pretty clearly excludes your personal car from the definition of “motor vehicle”. Though I didn’t dig much further, the definitions section began with, “For the purposes of this chapter the following definitions apply.” Emphasis mine. They then use this to say states are not allowed to supercede feeders law and therefore the state is wrong.
When you are born, the government creates a fake corporate entity with your same name. That’s the thing that accrues the debts, fines, and jail sentences, not you the person. As long as you never sign a document in black or blue ink they cannot assign those to you because of arcane law stuff.
I think there might be multiple subgenres, but this person/corporation duality is definitely one of the subgenres. I think the common element is they all believe there is some sort of magic spell they can cast to be immune to regulations.
Abstractly, we as people in society abide a social contract. Not a physical document we signed but a general expectation we all hold of each other in how we interact as citizens.
He appears to reject this style of thinking and refuse the consequences of this social contract because it isn’t something they’ve actually consented into, like you would when signing a physical contract.
So to this person this traffic ticket is a debt placed on them by someone with no authority to do so.
Typically it’s people who get pulled into this thought process when seeking legal help and are unable to distinguish good advice from bad advice. They join these groups of like minded people and it becomes a blind leading the blind scenario. Or by someone trying to scam them with ‘lessons’.
I think it stems from the complex nature of law there’s some things that sound so fake that are real that it blurs the lines. For example the US Congress can authorize ordinary people to engage in maritime theft against other nations.
These guys are really entertaining. Flat earth people are boring by comparison. Sovcits will use 15 legal and Latin terms they learned from their redneck uncle, cram all of them into a single rage Facebook post not understanding what any of them mean. Wonderful.
Redneck uncle? Guess those Sov Cits are a diverse bunch. The few I have ever dealt with were minority, a couple black Americans and the most memorable was a Carribean Islander (my guess from accent, surprisingly he didn’t want to show me his Passport).
Forget the Facebook rage. Hit up YouTube or your favorite more free alternative and you can watch amazingly confident sovcit nitwits square up against cops and judges.
A sovereign citizen is a loosely associated group of right wing anti-government extremists that emerged in the 1970s as an offshoot of the white supremacist religion Christian Identity. They believe they are not governed by the laws of where they live (hence sovereign), and that they are not required to have licenses, plates, insurance, ID, etc, and that they can pay bills by sending in nonsense correspondence with magic codes they think will eradicate their debt. They believe the government holds a 2 million dollar secret trust in everyone’s name and that you can pay your bills by “accessing” that trust through magic paperwork. They are a huge nuisance to cops and courts, “paper terrorize” the government to the tune of millions per year in frivolous litigation, and are a frequent source of hilarity in YouTube for their notorious traffic stop videos where they almost always end up dragged out of their car. They are properly bonkers.
Explaining it is a multi page response, you have the ability to go to Wikipedia or Google and figure it out yourself. They told you what to research, so don’t be the laziest Internet user and read up on it yourself.
Add comment