So, I realized something while listening to the Kan news report from Israel last night:
Western pro-Palestinian protesters don't think that Hamas exists as a unified fighting force.
Many probably don't even believe that Hamas is an elected government that represents the people and fulfills governmental duties.
I think they probably think of Hamas as "a few dozen" extremists, rather than having a membership (prior to the war) of around 40,000, with a trained and well-armed military fighting force in the thousands.
And, polling in Palestine shows Hamas with over a 70% approval rating among the civilian population! During the war!
My brain just didn't realize that protesters would ignore or reject the truth, or I guess that they would unquestioningly repeat their assumptions as truth.
@noharmpun@testing I think it's worth noting that opinion polls are probably somewhat skewed bc ppl are afraid of speaking openly. The pollster could be a snitch.
@em
calling opinion polls elections is a bit of a stretch anyway, isn't it? there is that saying: in wars, truth gets killed first > let's not be killers @noharmpun
No one was saying that. The election was 18 years ago (first screenshot), But Hamas still has broad support (second screenshot).
em was pointing out that although support may be "broad" it may not be quite as high as in the recent polling.
My point was that even if support is only at, say, 40%, that still counts as broad support and to say that support for Hamas among Palestinians to be "fringe" is not supportable.
Em didn't say that, I said that. The original post is mine.
You are REALLY twisting the history here.
Hamas definitively won the majority of votes in 2006, across the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas shortly thereafter created a unity government with Fatah. This unity government was over both territories.
In 2007, the unity government couldn't hold and literal bloody battle was waged between Hamas, who had the majority, and Fatah. From the fighting, Hamas consolidated full control over Gaza while being kicked out of the West Bank.
It wasn't a coup. It was a civil war that literally split the territories into having separate governmental entities.
It is true that Gazans did not vote in favor of conducting the civil war and there has not been an election since. But the undeniable fact remains that in 2006 Hamas ran in an election and got the most votes and so "won".
Also, thank goodness Israel stayed out of the conflict. Can you imagine if Israel meddled more than it already did?
I'm sure Abbas considered it a "coup d'etat", but Abbas, while president, did not control the government.
And speaking of Israeli passivity, it's probably exactly because Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005, which is something all Palestinians wanted, that allowed Hamas to take over Gaza.
There could easily be an argument made that if Israel had not fully withdrawn from Gaza then the lives of Gazans would have been much better off for the entire last 17-18 years of Hamas control.
But despite this, support for Hamas in Gaza and in the West bank is broad. AT LEAST 35% of Palestinians support Hamas and Hamas's actions. The true number is probably somewhere closer to 40%-55%. As em said, it's hard to say for sure when there snitches everywhere.
Also, thank goodness Israel stayed out of the conflict. Can you imagine if Israel meddled more than it already did?
There could easily be an argument made that if Israel had not fully withdrawn from Gaza then the lives of Gazans would have been much better off for the entire last 17-18 years of Hamas control.
do want to imply that israel had not interfered in order deliberately making people's lives in gaza more miserable? if so: thinking of it is already despicable in itself
with each post, you are stretching it even more, so let me be clear on this:
hamas is a terror organization
in 2007, hamas took over in gaza in a coup d'état, with israel staying passive
do yourself a favor: stick to facts instead of alternative history @em
You are confusing the conflict with the occupation.
Facts:
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.
In 2006, elections were held and Hamas got the most votes.
In 2006, Hamas formed a unity government, the PNA, with Fatah. But since Hamas had the most seats it essentially controlled the government.
Between 2006-2007, Hamas believed (and was probably correct) that Fatah was being armed/trained by the US and others to get rid of Hamas. Hamas got weapons and training from their allies.
In 2007, Fatah and Hamas started fighting, the PNA was disbanded, Fatah took control of the West Bank and Hamas seized control of Gaza.
Conjectures:
If Israel had continued to occupy Gaza, they would have probably stopped the flow of weapons and no fighting would have broken out.
But since Israel wasn't in Gaza, "medding" would involve invading. It would be Israel killing Palestinians instead of Hamas/Fatah killing them themselves.
My opinion is that Israel invading would have been bad.
But I am glad that we agree that Hamas is a terror organization.
But, it's also a government. One organization can be both things at the same time.
My belief is that the only real way forward is to bring in the PA/Fatah to take over governmental/administrative duties and arrest or exile all Hamas members whose authority is above "office clerk".
Get rid of the whole lot and let Abbas try to sort it out.
@noharmpun
hamas is also part of the palestinians' struggle for liberation, acting out of revengeful sentiment and driven by antisemitism, meanwhile borrowing certain ideological elements from their very enemies
israel has obstructed the palestinian elections 2006, has rendered the hamas-led government powerless, and denied palestinian elections in 2021: a funky way of remaining the only democracy in the middle east > besides, israel has resorted to terrorist actions since its very beginnings > israel is not on a higher moral level than hamas
@testing@em The hypocrisy... I state facts and you state talking points, and then complain the opposite way.
You call Hamas a terrorist organization that stole power and oppresses the people against their will but then say it's part of the people's righteous struggle for freedom.
Reflect on yourself and stop lying. There is (metaphorical) blood on both our hands, stop acting like yours are so clean.
But don't bother responding. You're already blocked.
@em israel has always interferedin palestine, even when overtly acting passive > pls don't depict israel as a benefactor to the palestinians - stick to the facts
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