Does anyone know why SteamOS is based on arch rather than Debian?
Just got a steam deck and immediately checked out the desktop mode, and I was somewhat surprised to see KDE and pacman as opposed to GNOME and apt, I have nothing against the former though a strong preference for the latter, anyone know why Volvo went in this direction?
Arch gets faster driver updates, KDE is faster at developing Wayland protocol implementations.
Edit: Valve gets their desired stability by turning Arch into a point release distro through image based releases. And, the system is practically unbrickable since it’s immutable. So, in summary it’s the best of both rolling release and point release models. By best, I mean for gaming.
I understand your comment if you have an Nvidia GPU and/or if you don’t do any gaming, but if you have an Intel or AMD GPU and you play games, Wayland is just better. VRR, HDR, Fractional Scaling, Nvidia Reflex (for all GPU brands), in GameScope (wayland compositor made by Valve) you can have FSR, upscaling, on all games. It’s even better than on Windows. And if you use Bazzite, all is set up for you out of the box, you don’t need to be an experienced Linux user to use all of the above tech. Just like on the Steam Deck.
For the KDE part, something I haven’t heard most people mention is the wayland support and how fast they are to pioneer and implement new protocols. DRM leasing is the reason why Gnome can’t do VR games and I forget why they wouldn’t implement it, but the why doesn’t really matter for a company focused on gaming. There are quite a number of protocols that have followed this same story with Gnome.
Yes, but that isn’t really relevant to the current state of things. I still think Gnome’s wayland implementation is ahead in some ways, but why would that matter when various game related stuff doesn’t work on Gnome. We are talking about a gaming company here.
the deck isn’t some server that needs > 100% uptime for years. Debian is poopoo for bleeding edge game releases, especially any alpha/beta/early access stuff
In early Steam Deck showcase videos there were talks with Valve guys like Lawrence Yang, and IIRC they simply said that it is easier for them to build the system that way, not that they couldn’t continue using Debian.
I think the reason for that might be that Debian has pretty strict package and dependency policies and sometimes it’s not easy to put cutting edge solutions on top of the „stable” base, so they would end-up using unstable/sid anyway, which still isn’t ideal as there is some freezing happening every now and then. Also Debian packaging system feels quite dated and strict comparing to PKGBUILD format, and it’s simply easier to build custom packages, having single build instruction file is super convenient and unlike with Debian at times, replacing whatever core system packages without breaking half of the dependency tree is usually easily doable on Arch.
Rolling release, quicker updates for gaming, and pacman is an extremely fast package manager, which is why OpenSUSE Tumbleweed wasn’t chosen. KDE probably because touch screen works better on it and maybe they found switching between desktop and big picture mode to be a better transition
Arch rolling gives up to date packages quickly. The most important part for Linux gaming is quickest pushing of GPU and performance related kernel code, so that the most optimal balance between battery life and performance is continuously achieved, because Linux gaming is still in its infancy. Every new update or package possibly giving this benefit matters to Valve, and they need maximum amount of time to optimise and push updates.
There is no GNOME hate angle, unlike what a lot of idiots here want to claim and spread the toxicity for it. KDE people, Snap haters, systemd haters are extremely vile people. Valve does not care about working with UI, since they can design a launcher for any Linux distro themselves, hiding the ugly terminal and filesystem well enough for casual gamers.
They only support Ubuntu as downstream Distro, while they preinstall it on their number 1 supported platform, SteamOS. They control the complete software stack and even hardware.
They dont support Arch on whatever hardware, they support SteamOS on the Steamdeck.
I don’t think that’s a good point, since they make their own immutable images, so they can use whatever versions of software they want, and you don’t normally get to update them with the rolling release
Why would they manually package them? Just grab the packages you need from testing or sid. This way you keep the solid Debian stable base OS and still bring in the latest and greatest of the things that matter for gaming.
But why go through those hoops? What is the advantage Debian brings when you have to cherry pick packages and their dependencies from Sid? Stability is no longer an advantage when you are cherry picking from Sid lol.
Stability is no longer an advantage when you are cherry picking from Sid lol.
This makes no sense. When 95% of the system is based on Debian stable, you get pretty much full stability of the base OS. All you need to pull in from the other releases is Mesa and related packages.
Perhaps the kernel as well, but I suspect they’re compiling their own with relevant parameters and features for the SD anyway, so not even that.
Yeah as an Arch user I disagree. Imo a handheld meant to be a plug and play system would hugely benefit from a stable OS with a laid back update schedule. You don’t see PlayStation pushing constant updates the second BSD packages get new versions.
As others have said, Valve has their own immutable release system, so it doesn’t really matter. In this case, the rolling release has even less to do with it. They likely chose Arch due to the up to date packages which benefit gaming.
People shitting on Gnome sound like kids bitching that the free pizza shop doesn’t offer your favorite hamburger.
Also, all this sudden Gnome hate all over Lemmy is trendy as fuck, being trendy used to mean you were a loser with no original style, I guess the capitalists turned it into “viral” and made it cool.
You don’t like that people don’t like gnome. You care about what they like.
I, personally, think when we love something we want it to be the best it can be. Gnome devs seem to just be red hat employees who don’t actually care about making a good DE, just doing the easiest work while [WONTFIX]ing anything that takes actual effort.
You don’t even talk with gnome devs. You talk with red hat. They’re employees first for a company owned by IBM.
Gnome devs seem to just be red hat employees who don’t actually care about making a good DE
But Gnome is a great DE, I’ve used it as a daily driver for personal and at work for many years. I can’t say I have any major complaints. What’s so terrible about Gnome?
Yes, just that Valve would have ignored Linux existed. Nothing much. Companies would not make software for Linux. Not much really. Coherent ecosystem and work flow does not matter, but ricing every single button matters to the no life NEET kids.
A coherent ecosystem…of blank windows with not enough functionality crammed into a hamburger menu made the way it is mostly for aesthetics. A workflow that doesn’t make sense to most people who are trained on PCs. A dev team who hate their users.
Gnome is shit, I use KDE btw is definitely the new Reddit/Lemmy Linux community circlejerk.
And it’s not even like console fanboy arguments, because in this case it’s pretty one-sided. I don’t see Gnome fans brigading KDE threads and circlejerking about KDE being awful and the devs being cunts.
Idk why people can’t just accept that they’re both amazing DEs but very different in use, with very different project philosophies.
It seems to me that people keep saying “Linux is about choice”, but the second someone chooses something different to what the hivemind likes, the pitchforks are out.
I don’t see Gnome fans brigading KDE threads and circlejerking about KDE being awful and the devs being cunts.
I’m a Gnome user for like 20 years, I don’t prefer KDE but glad it’s there. I never have but would be happy to support KDE and understand any devs being cunts on occasion, I’m sure it’s stressful. I’m glad they are there so I don’t have to use proprietary software.
I’ve used Gnome for a very long time but tried out Plasma 6.0 soon after it came out, and I’m very impressed.
I might switch back to Gnome some day, but KDE just keeps growing on me.
The seamless clipboard sharing feature between mobile and laptop is really cool, and that was just an unexpected bonus attached to a whole set of cool features. And everything feels cohesive in a way that I’m not used to.
Oh yeah, definitely. There were even death threats to the devs for a while after Gnome 3 came out, because anonymity seems to turn some people into monsters.
It just seemed to me that it settled down for a while and now in the past couple of years it’s ramped back up again for some reason.
I was very upset when they released gnome 3. Suddenly things were different, and there were rough edges. I used XFCE for many years after that. But… I have come to appreciate it now. I like that the devs had their vision and didn’t give in to all the demands to make it work differently. It’s their project, and I can use it if I want, or not. I respect it the same way I respect OpenBSD doing their thing. Can you imagine demanding that the OpenBSD devs changed their vision due to popular opinions? “We want closed source nvidia drivers and bluetooth support!” They just tell people to use another OS then. But from that stubbornness something beautiful is created.
This is a dumb take too, it’s important to criticize and scrutinize anything and everything down to the smallest detail to understand what works and what doesn’t, how and why that is the case in order to make better decisions for the future. You have to think critically, especially about software even when it’s a matter of preference.
What? No I was saying that NOT criticizing GNOME just because of the old thought-terminating cliché of “don’t use it then” is silly because it’s important to critique everything and no one is just saying it’s “garbage” apart from people in your head
I remember a lot of KDE hate up until Gnome 3, which was controversial, to say the least. It mirrored old-school Mac hate, with a lot of invalid arguments parroted by people who never took time to learn it (or more to the point, to unlearn what they came from).
I’ve swapped between Gnome and KDE a bunch of times, and it hasn’t really made a difference to me in many years. There was a time when running apps built for one on the other was a painful experience either way. Nowadays my DE choice doesn’t really influence my application choices.
I never see KDE get near the hate from gnome users because it just doesn’t affect them.
It’s because everyone that uses Linux will stumble across gnome at least once because it’s in Ubuntu which is the first and only distro a lot of people use, so you have to go out of your way to use something else like KDE.
i don’t understand why you’d waste time complaining about any you don’t use.
Why do people complain about anything?
Because why not? I don’t like Gnome but I complain about it because I can and I don’t like it.
I also complain about IOS, macOS, And a lot of other shit that doesn’t matter. I just like to voice my opinion like everyone else. There is no need to listen.
Ubuntu’s version of Gnome is heavily modified to look and feel like their old Unity DE though. Vanilla Gnome like in Fedora or Arch is a vastly different experience.
Another point for KDE might be that it works much better on a small screen that may be partially obscured by an overlaid keyboard. I used Bazzite Gnome for a while on the Steam Deck and I much preferred Plasma on there after switching back, despite using Gnome on my main system.
Volvo probably trying to cast off their reputation for being "safe ang boring" and take on a more edgy image.
Ditching Internal combustion in favour of steam power is also a major shift for them.
Wasn’t Volvo the company where some exec got run over when they wanted to demonstrate the automatic emergency stop feature? And all this after they gifted seatbelts to the world.
That actually ended up being untrue. There were claims that it was the CEO, then it switched to “some random executive”.
Turns out it was neither, and the identity of the people (there were two) struck is unknown. Not only that, the car in question didn’t even have a pedestrian detection system, because that’s an optional extra that the XC60 in question didn’t have installed.
The rumour also said that the “CEO” was paralysed, which is also untrue. The injuries sustained were so minor that nobody went to hospital.
All of the things others have said are excellent points, I would also like to point out that if you go to the steam hardware survey and select Linux only you’ll see that Arch is the most used distro (after SteamOS), and that was also the case when the Steam Deck was announced in July 2021 web.archive.org/web/20220806051441/…/hwsurvey/
And from my personal experience there’s a reason for that, other than the I use Arch btw meme, despite most ports having Ubuntu in mind, and despite Ubuntu being the more user friendly distro, games just work on Arch. It’s a weird thing where gaming on all of my arch machines is very painless, but gaming on the Ubuntu ones is frustrating, there’s always something not right, it feels like the machine is chugging, or the driver decides not to work, or the game shows a black screen, or prime decides not today, etc, etc. I admit this is personal experience, and others might have the exact opposite, and that this is kind of biased because as a general rule people who use Arch tend to be more knowledgeable about Linux than people who use Ubuntu, but from replying on several Linux forums it’s generally people with Ubuntu that have problems with games and people with Arch usually report that “it just works” for them.
Reminds me of the time I had a nvidia GPU laptop and was distro hopping like a rabbit on crack trying to find something stable. Surprisingly enough it was Arch that proved to be the most stable and what I ended up sticking to.
Yup, been using Arch for around 16 years, never had a problem with an Nvidia card and the vast majority of my GPUs were Nvidia. Every time I hear the horror stories of prime and bumblebee I really couldn’t relate because everything just works for me… A couple of years back however my company gave me a laptop with a company approved OS (Ubuntu), and while I don’t know who’s exactly to blame here (but I have my suspicions), I’ve had to use prime-select to set the OS to work always with the Nvidia GPU, otherwise external monitors work like shit.
It could be that ThinkPads are shit compared to Acer (and every other brand I’ve had in the past) laptops, it could be that the i7 on that laptop has a shitty GPU and can’t handle the external monitors. But I’m 90% sure that if I put Arch there it would just work, and I wouldn’t almost burn myself with a 99°C laptop that’s constantly running a GPU that’s not meant to.
Of course it does. OP asked multiple questions, this was sipposes to answer why they used KDE instead of Gnome. I personally think Arch would have the advantage of having the newewst drivers, Proton version etc. available.
I remember in an interview talking about the Steam Deck and its controls, GabeN said (paraphrased) “What we learned from the Steam Controller is there needs to be zero learning curve. Players want to pick it up and understand it immediately.”
Given that ethos, it’s not difficult to understand adopting KDE over Gnome. Most of Valve’s customers are coming from Windows, and KDE resembles Windows’ UI, where Gnome resembles iOS after a stroke.
So, what you’re saying is you think Gnome resembles MacOS after a stroke? Fair enough.
Whichever who cares. I find Gnome so feature poor and so “why would you ever want to do that?” and so “You have to do it the way it occurred to us, not the way it occurred to you.” that I legitimately hate it.
No, GNOME is far superior to MacOS, so superior that Windows 11 copied it, and KDE copies Windows. That makes GNOME the godfather compared to hacky KDE.
You think so? That shit has 2 right click menus and settings hard to navigate, not to mention the unbearable ad ridden Start menu, shitty Control Panel and AI garbage you cannot escape. You need something like AME project to make it barely usable. Oh and forced updates taking hours of time. All this is not a problem on Linux.
False, wrong, invalid opinion. I have been a user of Windows since 95/98, and a user of GNOME for almost 7 years. The current GNOME 40+ workflow and UX is beyond superior to whatever Windows is. Windows only makes sense till it does not, and the moment you try to do things other than the convoluted hack way we have been taught for over 20 years, it falls apart.
Add comment