I’m sorry, I forget never to use hyperbole when speaking about Germany. I was overstating to nod to the horrific violence the students have been enduring for protesting for Palestine.
@LALegault@ErnstGucker@MorpheusB@jeffjarvis Choke holds are cruel and I won't defend them, but they're part of regular tactics by police in demonstrations regardless of the topic and also outside of Germany. No need to make everything about Palestine, the world is already bad as it is.
@stevenbodzin@jeffjarvis they don't define Zionism at all. It could vary greatly. From simple idea of a Jewish state. To the idea of annexing Jordan and displacing Arabs there (because Brits assigned it as Palestine too)
@RustyBertrand a) Nobody's arresting Jews for being Jews here in Germany.
b) Nobody's arresting Muslims for being Muslims here in Germany.
c) There's people being arrested for hate crimes and attacks against Jews.
d) There's people being arrested for hate crimes and attacks against Muslims.
e) Things regarding Palestine, Palestinians, Jews, Israelis, Israel, Zionism are quite damn complicated.
@stiefel_fan@Chip_Unicorn@jeffjarvis you're free to disagree with the use of the word. What I am kvetching about is the state making public expression illegal. The whole idea of hate speech being a crime in itself, even unaccompanied by action, is dangerous.
@stevenbodzin You have heard of stochastic terrorism? You have heard what happens when you allow shit talking about groups? We have lived through that.
@wonka@stiefel_fan@Chip_Unicorn@jeffjarvis i lived in Venezuela, where hate speech laws have been used to cement a dictatorship in place, destroying the courts, legislature and election system.
Happily, there are ways to punish hate speech without making it a crime in itself. In the US it is be used to show motive for a crime, and can be used to enhance sentences for criminal acts. But if there is no criminal act, there is no reason to shut down an event. Shun, criticize, ignore, defund.
@stevenbodzin And ignore all the science showing that's not enough? Why?
Wait for something to happen, only to then punish that harder, when we know that punishment for "real" criminal acts doesn't prevent them?
We need to prevent the mindset that enables "real" criminal acts by already punishing hate speech.
Here in Germany, we say "BILD hat mitgeschossen", referring not only to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudi_Dutschke#Attempted_assassination_and_its_aftermath.
@wonka@stiefel_fan@Chip_Unicorn@jeffjarvis please reread my first paragraph. I could also have mentioned such laws in Russia, Nicaragua, etc. You worry that without hate speech laws, fascism and bigotry will be so tempting that many people will join it. But in my experience, hate speech laws can also be used to lock in fascism and bigotry. There are many more effective tools against fascism than criminal law.
@stevenbodzin And we have courts of justice that will throw out attempts to "lock in fascism and bigotry", because our system has been constructed with the intention to prevent repetition of the Third Reich.
@stevenbodzin The "overreactions" where they only stopped the event after a person was already broadcast that said "If I were younger I'd have participated in the Oct 7th attacks"? Really? REALLY? That is not even apologizing terrorism, that's actively promoting terrorism, is it not?
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