You know, if those trips were going to be taken on bikes without motors, they already would. #eBikes are the bikes that don't gather dust in the back of the garage, that actually replace car trips. Some people don't need them, but the people still in cars clearly aren't those ones.
It's not going to get someone into shape to feel defeated on the way home from the grocery store, trudging up the last hill with a laden acoustic bike. Many people are not going to go ride it just for exercise. An easy car replacement, even if you barely pedal, is going to get you more active than sitting in a car. I've heard plenty of these stories from people who were able to gradually get in shape thanks to the assisted moderate effort of regular e-bike use. It just removes barriers.
@enobacon Too much of the discussion revolving around disdain for ebikes centers the male perspective.
Women in our society are subject to much more stringent appearance and professionalism standards than men. The ability to arrive at my office on the other side of town on a hot Summer day and still be professionally presentable without needing a shower, a change of clothing, and a full redo of my hair and makeup is a key feature of my ebike.
@enobacon There is a study on this phenomena (people getting more exercise when they switch to an ebike if they were previously only an occasional rider because they ride more frequently and for longer distances), but I think I closed the tab I had it open in. Someone on this server post it a while ago. It was a great bit of hard data to back up this argument.
Personal vignette, before I got my e-bike I would ride in on weekends, occasional weekday, and very occasionally pick up groceries.
With the e-bike, I biked almost every day since May and did maybe 50% of my shopping by bike.
For me, the main reason I biked more is speed, on the e-bike if I push I can get to work in 30 min without being completely wiped out. On a regular bike, pushing only made me tired and didn't make me faster.
Once I'm on the e-bike it's easier for me to convince myself to turn off the assist and get my heart-rate up than it would be for me to convince myself to commit to a whole round trip on the acoustic (?) bike.
@enobacon also like convincing other people to get exercise is pretty low on my list of priorities, people can make whatever transportation choices they like that don't involve messing up the planet I'm living on
@sanae@enobacon There are studies that indicate riding an e-bike can get you as fit as riding an acoustic one, or even more fit. The main reason seems to be that as you said, an e-bike will encourage you to ride more and further, thereby resulting in more physical work than just riding an acoustic bike here and there.
@daihard@enobacon either way I think it's pretty unimportant. I actually think the focus on fitness is bad because it cements the idea that riding a bike is something you do for recreation, maybe something where you even drive your bike to the starting point, or as part of a niche fitness oriented lifestyle, rather than a way to get around. It also makes riding a bike sound a lot more challenging than it actually is for people who do not see themselves in fitness oriented subcultures
@sanae@daihard it's hard to strike a balance between talking-up the benefits in terms of public health and individual fitness without making some ideal of fitness seem like a mandate. Staying/getting healthy enough to easily climb stairs is nice, but there is also this pile of money we each individually set on fire every year just to transport our bodies and a bit of cargo (and then again collectively via the DOT budget, to keep individuals coerced into torching their own pile of cash.)
@enobacon@daihard I think the public health and individual fitness aspects are pretty low on the list of why we need to drive less (other than the negative public health effects of car related pollution)
@sanae@daihard the argument in favor of policy which allows for short trips to be largely replaced with e-bikes, does need to be credited with the benefits of an overall healthier population with reduced sedentary disease, added productivity of a workforce that misses fewer days, there's quite a benefit to regular daily activity of moderate effort for 20min etc. IDK, cities not punching themselves in the face with anti-bike infrastructure just pays for itself so many times over. 💸
@enobacon@daihard I feel like it kind of plays into the stereotype that biking is only for athletic young people. This perception has been a pretty major barrier in getting bike infrastructure built. Especially combined with a perception that the purpose of bike infrastructure is to push everyone but the young and affluent out of cities
like one of the great things about ebikes is that they allow more people to ride bikes, including people who don't want to be getting exercise (or can't)
@enobacon@daihard Most people's doctors tell them to exercise more (except for a few athletes almost all adults need more). The question is how do we sell ebikes as an easy no excuses way to exercise? That might be just sell them as the environmental or cheap way to get around and not mention until they are already doing it that they get the health as well.
@sanae@bluGill@enobacon This may not be in the scope of this conversation, but the question then is, how do we promote (e-)cycling to those who've never cycled for transport? To me, having relatively safe bike infrastructure is an absolute prerequisite. Explaning the benefits of cycling may be helpful, but without safe bike infra, I'm afraid it's very hard to convince the general public to try cycling.
@daihard@enobacon@bluGill Yeah, I think safe infrastructure is the biggest thing, that's the main thing I hear holding people back.
Another obstacle is people not seeing cycling as being for them. I think the existence of ebikes helps here. Until recently, I found a big segment of the bike community to be pretty gatekeepy, and despite being car free for years it took me a long time to ride a bike as an adult because I didn't feel like I could be a "cyclist"
@sanae@daihard@bluGill As an advocate, I can't really encourage someone to take up biking, in many situations of our current network, unless they want to become an advocate, the infrastructure is everything. For people who don't see biking as being for them (of course it is but infrastructure), there is probably an easier way to gain their political support than imagining themselves on a bike. The fiscal and geometric absurdity of how we engineer our streets for cars should be enough really.
@enobacon@sanae@bluGill I'm with you both. As an advocate myself, I always have a hard time even thinking about convincing people to try cycling as a means of trnasport because of lack of safe infra in the Seattle area. And @sanae nailed it - e-bikes are a game changer in hilly cities like here.
@enobacon@sanae one of the best promotions is do it. Not as a fanatic all dressed up in fancy cycle gear going on a ride, but a normal person with normal clothes doing normal tasks.
@enobacon I have a significant hip impairment; there is no "get in shape" for me or folk like me, and that's fine. My ebike enables me to be in the world on my own terms without burning fuel unnecessarily.
@donaldball yes all shapes are fine. You're probably getting a better amount of cardio and respiratory activity than you would otherwise, I'm referring above to the implication that anyone should be able to just carry their kid in a messenger bag on a fixie and nobody needs any more bike than that.
@enobacon For me personally a barrier to getting groceries by bike is having the nearest grocery store be across two of the most bike hostile streets (the Safeway on the corner of Chavez and Powell). The only options are apparently ride on the sidewalk, or take the (30mph) lane.
@pdxleif red lanes would make that a breeze. It's sad that PBOT drags this stuff out while trying to preserve as much car supremacy as possible, like just this enormous effort they make to maintain the same number of deaths whenever they make any changes.
@enobacon My ebike is gathering dust in the garage. Because I find it unenjoyable to ride, and also it weighs a ton - it's too much work to get it out of the garage. Not sure why I bought it - it was on clearance sale. Originally was looking for one for my kid.
@pdxleif yeah the weight can be cumbersome in parking and storage. There are some lighter and/or more minimalist models, some have better control schemes than others. What model did you get?
@enobacon The Rad Power RadMission - was on sale for $500. Think if I had some big hills on my commute I'd have more of a use-case for it. I bought their rack on sale, too, but it doesn't fit any of my panniers.
@pdxleif well that's pretty minimalist. Is it the single speed or the motor control that makes it unpleasant to ride? Or just ergonomics? The usefulness does depend on your hills/distance vs cargo needs, and being situated such that you can easily get it out and go, equipped for cargo etc. That's a bummer with the panniers, needs an adapter kit or something?
@enobacon A bit of both. Not wild about the cadence sensor - I feel less "in control" because my muscle memory doesn't line up w/ what the bike actually does. It weighs a ton, feels cheaply made, brakes rub - and I just feel silly riding something 3x the weight of my normal bike for no reason.
Bought a basket for the back. Was thinking to get grocery panniers that would go across the back rack - like fabric that drapes across the back, instead of relying on being able to hang on the tubes.
@enobacon This is the most "normal bike" of their models, and from reviews I've read, since it's not going to be like riding a normal bike, don't bother trying to replicate that experience, and just get something more on the moped end (like their Rad Runner model or something?)
@pdxleif rad certainly goes cheap on their components, and it's going to feel like a cheap bike, plus their control scheme isn't super smooth, so a lot of people do rely on the throttle to control it and/or don't bother pedaling. That's quite a bit different than a torque sensing control, and you'll have a different experience with a mid drive and 10 speed cassette or the many IGH ones, or doing a conversion on a nice bike, which can be a more minimalist motor+battery to keep weight down.
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