OC [Disc] Wanderer in the Vortex Chapter 5 - The Undiscovered Babylon (spoilers)

Note: Spoilers discussed in this thread.

(Non-spoiler section here)

Hi everyone, I recently finished Chapter 5 of Wanderer in the Vortex, I wanted to discuss it since I enjoyed it a lot. I added a WIP fanart for this discussion to bait you into reading this long post. (Btw, if you're on mobile, you can zoom in on pictures by opening in a new tab)

From what I read, this was the same writer as Melissa, Eva and Iphi's character quests, Mizuki Hiratani, whose writings take on a darker and heavier tone. I dislike stories with negativity for its own sake, but if there is meaning behind it, I can get behind it. I enjoyed Chapter 5. I think it's my favorite Wanderer in the Vortex chapter so far.

Some of the previous Wanderer in the Vortex chapters felt a little tedious and cliche, in particular Chapter 1 with Orleya. It felt very shounen-esque with an "overcome your fears!" hoo-rah kind of character development arc and a very weak villain in terms of writing. But I did enjoy Chapter 2 (Alma/Lele) the most among the previous chapters, followed by Chapter 4 (Alter Tsukiha).

(Spoiler section from here until end)

One of the draws of story for me was Marie. She's a very compelling character to me. There's a deep longing and something exceedingly sad in her words. I think her portrait art was done very well too to convey the depth of her emotions. When she talks to Aldo, she says:

Yes. You promised me a tale of your adventures, remember? Is the outside world very, very large?

Ordinary people laughing happily, singing affectionate songs, holding hands with the people they love...

Walking through the streets in the lamplight, wearing soft shoes.

People who speak about those things with such earnestness and purity talk like that because they've never known that kind of happiness.

When you see her lose it and explode at Mariel, it helps convey how she's more than just a cheerful loving saint-like mother. She's at her limit.

I want you to go home, but you're still here! I feel like I'm going mad!

He's killing himself! And on top of all that, you ignorant outsiders decided to intrude on our life!

In some ways, she reminds me of my own mother. One of my older siblings remembered our mother as someone who was once beautiful, dignified, and sincere. Most of my siblings and I don't talk to her anymore. Both of my parents were deeply sincere and devoted with all of their hearts to what turned out to be a cult that cast them out of the communities they spent the best years of their life building up. Everything that was full of love, hopes and dreams, turned into a crushing disappointment and wounds that I don't think they ever quite fully recovered from (or ever got therapy for).

Not to derail this post into some personal life story, but what I'm saying is based on my experiences, this story feels very real. The dynamic of Marie's religious community, her life, her bitterness and resentment, feels like it was written by someone who experienced it firsthand. It's hard to write that kind of story convincingly. It's a sign of a good writer.

One of the themes I liked in this story was the relationship between knowledge and innocence. When Aldo and company meet Marie and the children, we find out that although they are very happy and loved, none of them know how to read or write.

As they explore the island, they find an abandoned home with diaries from Marie's adoptive father:

Is merely feeding them enough to make you a parent? Does protecting an immature body make you an adult? And what about children? The potential behaviors that the immature have toward adults, or their parents... They only receive. With food... No, perhaps with everything passive... When they are young and lack the knowledge, they can't make decisions. They can't even refuse. Worrying, hating, deciding. What brings them joy? What brings them down? Without knowledge, there is nowhere to go. Without experience, no decisions can be made. My heart aches when I look at her because she shines so bright. Acquiring knowledge without limitation, thinking freely, truly living like a human.

Then... what about the children of the island? I couldn't save them that day, those children whose innocence was forced upon them. Forced innocence is a tragedy in itself. Obedience when there is no other choice is basically distortion.

Marie intentionally keeps these children ignorant, innocent and dependent on her as a sort of revenge on the community who brought about all her suffering in the first place. Ironically, one of her children mistakes her for an imposter and kills her because of the lack of depth of their understanding about their mother as a human being. All their life, they had only known the saint-like side of their mother.

This reminds me of Plato's allegory of the cave. Basically if people are imprisoned in a cave and can only see shadows on the wall cast by fire, then that is their only understanding of reality. They lack exposure to the true reality of things because of their limited knowledge.

In the Undiscovered Babylon, life on the island and its curse of inedible food and animals represents Plato's cave. On the surface, Marie and the children all live in happiness and love. But they have nowhere to go, and it's a matter of time before their lives end in tragedy. The beliefs of Marie's religious community casts a shadow over their whole lives. Although Marie doesn't share their beliefs, she's still is bound by the limitation of only knowing life on this island. Even if you want something better, you can't do anything about it. There is a sense of utter hopeless futility with Marie and Ivan as they try to chart a course forward for their future. When you turn back time and return to the island to bring about the "true ending", Ivan is furious and exasperated because after hundreds of attempts, the children surviving as mutated plants and Marie living without Ivan, who she loved, was the best outcome that he could see possible. (By the way, the kids being mutated into those plant-like creatures was a truly shocking, horrifying and profane scene, like something from the Twilight Zone or the Outer Limits). Marie can also only conceive of solutions that are predicated on staying on the island, which are mostly gruesome and harsh.

In Plato's cave analogy, people who cannot overcome the difficulties of facing the light turn back to the imprisonment of the cave, because it seems too risky to face the terror of the unknown and retreat instead to the familiar, whether or not that is a better life.

But in the end, Marie decides to try to try to cast a double Pure Cradle with Mariel to purify all of the island so that it's no longer poisonous for them. That was a very emotional scene. Although it doesn't fulfill their initial goal, the light from the Pure Cradle draws explorers to the island, allowing Marie and the children to escape from the island. If I understood correctly, even Ivan survives in the true ending because Marie returns to the clock tower and says, "Ivan, I'm home. I was thinking... Let's talk. Let's look at one another." as she smiles. The minute hand on the clock tower turns, but time doesn't turn back. This time, a future exists for all of them. In a sense, they've left the cave and its shadows, with its distorted representation of happiness, with all the former ways of futility, and found a more true form of happiness outside. Marie (I think) also decides to teach the kids to read and write and no longer keep them in ignorance.

I feel there's other themes which I didn't touch on, but that one stood out to me.

Another piece of writing I liked was where Aldo convinces Ivan to trust them to try something new instead of Ivan sacrificing himself, saying:

I realized, by giving up on yourself, the ones you care about most will be the ones who suffer.

In some love dramas, you see someone sacrificing themselves, but in a grand and senseless way that elevates an ideal of selfless sacrificial love. Although love can be sacrificial, their portrayal of it is executed in away that irritates me because it lacks a sort of understanding about relationships between two people who love each other. To be honest, I was annoyed in Chapter 2 how Alma's mother insisted on sacrificing herself to save Alma, and Alma's father was like well, "if you insist..." I guess you can say that shows that parents love their children so much, but what about how your spouse feels when you something like that? The agony Marie felt when Ivan sacrificed himself to help the kids survive showed that sacrifice can be more complex than just the naivete of only focusing on the nobility of the act. I think those types of commentaries in this story conveys a depth of understanding in these types of themes and relationships of the characters and their choices. (By the way, I had to laugh when you choose between Mariel or Aldo to talk to Marie. It doesn't matter! She'll try to kill you no matter what.)

At first, I was put off by the happy endings in Another Eden's stories and found it to be sometimes too optimistic, thinking "this is isn't how it is in real life." But I don't think fiction has to follow real life all the time, especially if it wants to convey a specific theme or idea. I think one of the purposes of fiction or art in general is to create something beautiful to inspire people to hope in the possibility of a better reality than the one they see in front of them. (This is why you'll see that intellectuals, philosophers and artists are usually the first to go when a dictatorship takes over a society.) Or if not hope, then at least bring a sense of closure or catharsis to something traumatic by a retelling of that event. A doctor who researches trauma, Dr. Van Der Kolk, wrote a book called "The Body Keeps the Score", where he noticed that theater and roleplaying had a powerful transformative effect on people affected by long-lasting trauma. Trauma leaves people stuck in the past, with the traumatic event playing over and over in their mind, as if they were in a recurrent time loop of their own. Even if they try to move on, any events in the present are interpreted as if the traumatic event of the past were happening again. Resolving the trauma allows them to see that the event has passed and to move on with their lives and allow time to proceed for the future to come. This is why you see some people who are into acting come from difficult backgrounds. Frances Hodgson Burnett lost one of her sons to tuberculosis, but later wrote a book called "The Secret Garden," where the healing power of a garden and nature brings life back to two children abandoned by the world. The boy in story is based on her own son, I think. I think Chapter 5 was a story that was personally meaningful for me as well, since it reminds me a lot of my own mother and family.

Anyway, this went on kind of long, but I hope you enjoyed Chapter 5. Though you're free to have a different opinion. What did you think?

By the way, does anyone know what happened to the other people on the island? Like the tower defenders or the parents of the children. Or Marie's adoptive father.

Also, I didn't catch the significance of the sword that Ivan gives to Marie. Why does he have it? Is it supposed to be related to the song that Marie sings?

A WIP Fanart for Another Eden of Mariel holding a sword, sitting in the middle of a flower garden.
beithioch, (edited )
beithioch avatar

You've done an excellent job of calling out a lot of the thoughts in the episode, and I'm gonna try not to dig into those too much. Mostly, I'm gonna put out some of my thoughts around a few items and the series in general. Also, a caveat, I haven't done the true ending, and I ended up avoiding the reset when picking between Aldo and Mariel, so I don't have the whole story.

This is, frankly, the heaviest story we've gotten out of Another Eden yet. Sure, some have pushed the boundary on philosophy and identity, but they've implied most of the darker elements. Here, they are front and centre. I think of this episode a lot like I think about literature and analysis. There's so many ways to read things, and so many perspectives on how to read it, you'll find a bunch to chew on ().

All that said, I found it to be very biblical in nature. There's salt pillars, parables, Christian communion, Garden of Eden (location and the pursuit of food/knowledge), saviour sacrifice, and so much more. Then it layers in psychological elements with Marie and it gets very interesting to see all these parts come together.

What does stand out to me, at least as far as the other episodes are concerned, is the amount of self-reference. The other episodes connect to the larger AE story because of their central character (even in Road to Thunder with the fangirling by Miyu, and Fatum with Alma and Lele's friendship). Babylon stands out for two reasons, though: there's a TON of references to other bits of AE lore (clock tower, Ivan/Phantom, guardians, etc) and the lack of connection between Marie and Mariel. Marie isn't explicity Mariel, isn't from the same time period (maybe; see below), and Marie isn't explicitly a religious figure like Mariel. Mariel doesn't fulfill the central connection we've seen from the previous four episodes, and I think that may be telling.

Again, even though I don't have all the details, I'm gonna go out on a limb - and probably fall flat as a result.

So, what could it be telling us? Time for some head canon: What if Marie isn't Mariel? There's nothing in the story, that I saw, that actually connects them. The story even implies a break since the story they both relate is different. They have different experiences. All of the Vortex stories until this point have been historical; they lead up to the modern world of AE. If that's the case, this story shouldn't be about a parallel Mariel. So who is it? I think we get a hint on that, as well. Those references to the Guardians and Tower are intentional, as is the state of the modern map: Babylon is Zerberiya, the religion is the Sword-wielding Savior, and Marie is Thillelille. Basically, between Antiquity and Modern there's been a massive collapse in Zerberiya (not surprising based on what we know) and so over generations there has been decline. Thillelille is actually the reborn Sword-weilding Savior, maybe even born yet again, and the sword Ivan leaves directs us that way.

niantre,
niantre avatar

that's a fascinating theory! it definitely seems plausible. i enjoyed your other comments too, maybe those layers to the story help explain why i enjoyed it. thanks!

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

I thought it mentions explicitly - although I could be misremembering and if so I will apologize preemptively - that Marie was Mariel's "inspiration", like the story told about Marie came down through time and Mariel is the "present-day" incarnation of the past Marie, having read about her and modeled herself after the parts she most liked.

But as with anything "real", Marie does not live up to the hype that is built up around her story. So ironically then, Mariel, having modeled herself after the semi-fictional yet real (or should I say the semi-real yet fictional?:-P) Marie, is the real deal.

The legend of Marie has made her into a "saint", but the real Marie is just a girl. Though Mariel is a real, bona-fide saint and thus can cast spells that Marie could not. Ironically, it was Mariel's looking up to the legend of Marie that made her into a saint, but upon them meeting, Mariel is so much better than her (kinder, capable, not throwing a murderous hissy fit the moment she does not get her way, etc.:-D) that the contrast is striking. Yet Mariel, as a true humble saint, is nonplussed and still helps out regardless.

beithioch,
beithioch avatar

I can't remember if that came up in the story or Mariel's CQ. If so, I'm happy to take it - my theory is kind of off the wall. The lore of AE is pretty huge at this point, and we don't really have a resource to look at for all the different bits.

Zingarinha,
Zingarinha avatar

At this point it would just about need to be an encyclopedia. Doable, but a huge undertaking.

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

Right, there was one semi-recent reddit post that I recall, and there are some scattered wiki pages, but nothing comprehensive iirc. A LOT of the things about this game are not organized, if they are recorded at all, in large part b/c working with the people who run the wiki is so mind-destroyingly frustrating, and the toxic push-back to doing anything at all, by people who refuse to so much as click a link to even casually glance at something before they start writing long emotional-vomit tirades against its mere existence. Tbf, another major reason is that the MediaWiki language is quite daunting to have to work with, and most MediaWiki sites have the same problem even among technical-minded people who if it was just a click-edit-then-type type of page then they might offer something but having to dig deeper into programming, instead just avoid the task entirely. But fwiw, someone could add words to the existing https://anothereden.wiki/w/Mariel/Lore, even though Marie is an entirely separate person from Mariel, or we could create Lore tabs or even entire Lore sections on pages such as https://anothereden.wiki/w/Wanderer_in_the_Binding_Night or https://anothereden.wiki/w/Wanderer_in_the_Vortex. But so far I have not seen much of that.

Technical-minded people such as myself have offered to help make a way for that, but someone would need to create the actual content first, to fill those pages with substance. Yet like this OP was more of a commentary, and your comment more of a theory, so not something that would go onto the wiki directly, although when someone works out the actual fully-finished lore, that could then go onto the wiki, or simply be a "thread" offered to the community via this magazine - there are lots of ways to deliver it. But most people seem to not desire to do that, and those that do get driven away.

Boringnameman,

Excellent write-up and image. While the other chapters were also very enjoyable, I found the more subversive Chapters 5 and 6 to be the best; it's good to deconstruct the usual happy stories where Aldo crashes in and defeats a seemingly intractable problem with no (final) sacrifice and the adulation of the locals. Not that those plots aren't also enjoyable, but it's good to see the interaction between the optimistic protagonist and more mature issues. I hope we get more episodes from this writer!

I think the other adults eventually died of starvation, unable to produce enough purified food to sustain the community. No idea how they lasted as long as they did in the first place, since it seems like the children were born there. I'm not sure about the significance of the sword either; I suppose it's part of the early mythology of the Migleina branch of the church, but unclear why he gave it to her in the first place. Perhaps to help her survive on the island alone.

niantre,
niantre avatar

Thank you for your comments!

I hope we get more episodes from this writer!

Yes! I was quite sad when WFS moved Takeru Sakurada to another project (writer of Western Mythos, IDA series, Time Mine). As OpenStars mentioned in his post, after Apocrypha Ch 1, I didn't have much hope for the writing but felt that the later chapters were much better.

I think the other adults eventually died of starvation, unable to produce enough purified food to sustain the community

I guess that makes sense then why they also entrusted their kids to Marie. We see on the island the wreckage of a boat, so we know no one can leave. As they were dying out, seeing Marie perform a purification was a sign of their "salvation" according to the beliefs they created, and if I remember correctly, she would bring about like a new kind of humanity or something (I didn't remember that part clearly).

I'm not sure about the significance of the sword either; ... Perhaps to help her survive on the island alone.

As for the sword, yea I think his parting words to her was like "you can now cut down anything". I found the scene in Wil Mak's walkthrough video (spoilers):

Think about your own happiness this time. Okay? ...
I'm already disappearing. ... I will be your sword.
And then, no matter what difficulty or ugliness comes your way...
You can slash through it. I pray that you will be happy now. That nothing bad will ever threaten you again.

So not only did he turn his body into food, he turned the last of himself into a sword. But Marie responded saying, "this isn't what I wanted" as she falls to the ground and hugs the sword (hence the fanart). So I guess it represents his self-sacrifice and idea of happiness for Marie, surviving, but not considering how she felt about his own wellbeing.

niantre, (edited )
niantre avatar

By the way, I initially set this post as R-18 for spoilers, but unlike reddit which blurs out the post, it was completely de-listed from the magazine when the kbin settings "Hide NSFW content" is checked. So I just marked the title with a spoiler warning.. hope that's sufficient. In the future with an image post, I can try to make sure the thumbnail image itself doesn't have a spoiler and link to an external URL if needed. Not sure yet.

beithioch,
beithioch avatar

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out spoilers, and it's not a "thing" with kbin yet.

You could edit the post and add a bunch of blank lines after the first paragraph and write SPOILERS BELOW. At least people can enjoy the (awesome) art but avoid the spoilery bits.

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

I don't know if it is always this way but the last line that shows up for me is "(Spoiler section from here until end)" until you click the expand button. I suppose various (Lemmy) mobile apps may choose to show the content differently, but since as beithioch mentioned spoilers don't really fully exist yet, that's about the best that can be done, I think?

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

Separately, b/c I ran out of space in my other comment, if you are interested in Plato's allegory of the cave, then I highly recommend a book called "Flatland" (it is even in the public domain so you could download it free if you wanted to read that way, or there is an updated retelling called "Sphereland"). The original has some extremely misogynistic attitudes about women - so much so in fact that that aspect is theorized to have been written in jest, poking fun at society b/c someone who could write the rest of that book surely cannot have been THAT dense. That aside, it is one of the best books I have ever read.

TLDR summary: in a 2-D world, a person is visited by a 3-D being, who explains what the 3rd dimension is like - like the 3-D being can "see" the "inside" of the 2-D being's stomach, and locked doors mean nothing to it b/c it can just pass into the 3rd dimension and go right "over" the lock. Then the plot twist: the 2-D being, thus having received first-hand enlightenment, starts explaining what the 4th dimension must be like, if it followed suit along with the pattern from 1 to 2 to 3 and on to 4 dimensions, but the 4th dimensional being is having nothing whatsoever to do with that: "how could there be a 4th dimension? that's absurd!" - all the same objections that the 2-D being made, before being proven wrong.

Math really does have the ability to cross boundaries such as that - e.g. the number of vertices of square objects in the 1, 2, 3, and 4th dimensions follows the pattern of 1, 4 (square), 8 (cube), and thus a hypercube would be 16. Whether we as 3-D beings (who actually "see" in the sense of a 2-D image combined with "perspective" - like if you hold your hand out in front of your face, you cannot actually see in true 3-D, like behind the hand, what you get instead is a projection of the 3-D world into each of your eyes as two 2-D images that are then recombined into a 2-D perspective view) can truly "visualize" a hypercube or not, nonetheless we can still know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what its' properties would be. Not b/c of experiences, which blocks our first-hand knowledge and thus emotional acceptance of things, but from mathematical extrapolation of foundational properties.

Logic really is quite a versatile tool... for those who choose to use it. However, humans for the most part do not: we "use" it to "justify" our end goals, and it is exceedingly rare for any among us to actually choose to go wherever it will take us.

niantre, (edited )
niantre avatar

...Sorry to break it to you, but there is no 4th dimension! Only 3.

just kidding. yes, even education doesn't necessarily guarantee that people will use logic properly. there needs to be a willingness to do so.

from reading the wikipedia article about Flatland, it seems that the author added a preface in his second edition saying the misogyny was indeed social satire.

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

Oh I thought that was someone else who had added that. In any case, it makes me think that even people inside the cave could have figured out how they saw things from a skewed perspective, if they really wanted to. As you say there's a difference between capability vs. willingness, and yet the two also seem to often go hand-in-hand, possibly by lowering the barrier to considering other possibilities. e.g., people who read about others' experiences are more wont to disbelieve in things like misogyny and racism in their own personal lives as well.

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

First, about the art: I did not recall her ever having association with a sword in the game, although now that you say that she got it from Ivan, that would make more sense why she is clutching it to herself like that, for the security & comfort it brings.

After a string of not-entirely-welcomed failures content (such as harpooning that is grindier than rod fishing ever was, and the ending of Ocean Palace not being satisfying, although reportedly if you play through Pizzica's CQ then it gets better), and especially seeing how HORRIBLE the TTM was, I was seriousy starting to wonder if WFS had made AE "jump the shark", so to speak.

Thus, I am SO GLAD that I decided to do chapter 2 prior to 1 - it restored my faith in the entire game, it was that excellent. Ch. 1 as you say was just so "ho-hum", like pooping out a bland storyline as an afterthought to making all the other new dynamics - she really was just so freaking WHINY, like nobody irl would be THAT extremely whiny...right? Well anyway, it was only a minor pain to slog through, though otherwise neat art and new weapons & armor and SUPER-neat mechanics of unlocking the TRUE ENDING portions for each chapter (even though like many people, I at first assumed that you had to beat the extremely hard Superboss version to see that, and since I had no P/P grastas or ores yet I postponed them until I realized that the HARD ones were a whole different version), plus the cameos from characters such as Miyu in ch. 1 and Mariel in ch. 5 are so neat.

BUT CHAPTER 2 was... chef's kiss:-). Puzzles rather than just fighting, neat storyline of friendship (maybe even love? too soon to know really but the friendship aspect is enough to be happy about it), all the little things about it (e.g. Alma's VO saying "Just as good as magic":-P). I enjoyed ch. 3, 4 (okay she's also a bit naive too though), 5 got too long at the end but overall it too, and LOVE the music and aspects of 6 (except that last hidden quest, whew that was hard! I put a link to its location on the wiki though, in the loot section, to help others who struggled with it as much as I did, bumping into every single horizontal wall space in the entire area, but not checking the exceedingly rare invisible downward-facing ones).

And it sounds like chapter 5 really touched on a personal aspect for you, and that makes it all the more special for you, and yet above and beyond that it also gives you insight into knowing just how really good the writer must have been for it. Indeed, all of the stories except chapter 1 are really quite superb.:-)

I have more to say about the cave but that'll have to be a separate comment b/c of character limitations in comments. For now, I'll say that the situation with the children on the island not being taught to read or write is truly complicated because as long as they are on the island, what NEED have they to do that? She had apparently lost hope of ever going anywhere else either, and maybe of survival itself (which lest we forget, intentionally or otherwise, turned out to have been a correct guess, short of literal warping of time & space to have converted that into a different outcome).

The "sacrificial love" aspect of many stories is something that I have noticed as well – like it’s really quite easy to simply die for those you love, but it's fucking HARD to get up every single damn day and live for them. Hollywood (and kinda books too if we are honest) loves those "dramatic moment" type of scenes that are easily capturable by a seconds-to-minutes-long series of shots, and as a result ignores the day-in-day-out endurance marathon that is real life. Tbf, when Hollywood first started, people knew this b/c of experiences in their actual irls prior to movies even existing, but nowadays movies are such an ingrained part of the culture that I think people treat it as somemore more real than real. So the cool guys walking away from explosions and such... we see people showing up at what Trump had indicated was former USA President Barack Obama's house, seeking to live out those kinds of "glory moments" (although what would that have accomplished even? he literally cannot ever run again, having exceeded the maximum term limit, so it was pure "terrorism", plain & simple), but how often do we see someone willing to roll up their sleeves and actually get shit DONE in the positive sense, in the messy world that is politics, or any kind of leadership role? The "glory" of that kind of living is needed much more than one moment of cool-looking explosions, but Hollywood only sells to us what we will pay to consume, so don't expect to see it anytime soon. (although one example halfway like that would be the TV series "Designated Survivor", which did not last long)

niantre, (edited )
niantre avatar

Thus, I am SO GLAD that I decided to do chapter 2 prior to 1 - it restored my faith in the entire game, it was that excellent.

Oh yea, it was really encouraging to see the writing improve after chapter 1. I actually didn't play through the true endings until later, but the true ending for chapter 2 was quite good in my opinion...

5 got too long at the end but overall it too, and LOVE the music and aspects of 6 ... I put a link to its location in the wiki

I didn't mention the music in chapter 5, but yea I did like it too. Sometimes the music in some parts of the game are repetitive for me, but it was quite nice and didn't mind listening to it at all throughout the whole chapter. Thanks for adding that to the wiki! I'll check it out when I run through chapter 6!

The "sacrificial love" aspect of many stories is something that I have noticed as well – like it’s really quite easy to simply die for those you love, but it's fucking HARD to get up every single damn day and live for them.

You touched on a very good point. It reminds me of a quote by Thomas Merton:

Peace demands the most heroic labor and the most difficult sacrifice. It demands greater heroism than war. It demands greater fidelity to the truth and a much more perfect purity of conscience.

I was thinking, why is it harder to die for someone than to live for someone? To rephrase what you already said, I think it's because a sacrificial act is an act of immediate gratification, whereas living for someone is actually many acts of delayed gratification, and as you mentioned, a marathon. And as the quote alludes to, since the stakes are lower, the payoff is lower for every individual act of sacrifice. It requires more selflessness because there's no visible result for all those individual acts.

Once in the news, there was a man who dramatically saved someone who had a seizure and fell onto the subway train tracks. He jumped over and covered him so that the subway passed over both of them and he saved his life. It was quite an amazing and sensational thing to hear about. But you usually won't hear about someone who gave up their personal ambitions to raise their kids to be happy, or to be a caregiver for a sick loved one with a long term illness, or someone who pursued teaching instead of a better career. The only way to sustain yourself in those long enduring moments is to search yourself and live for something other than "glory" or being noticed (although being appreciated by those close to you goes a long way).

I think the trap of immediate gratification extends to how people think about other things as well, like "success". Then the definition of success changes to something very narrow (e.g., money), instead of other aspects like actually doing good work for the long term, personal development, or anything else that doesn't have an immediate short term gain. I think it's best not to mind or get caught up in the tide of popular sensations if you want to seek your own personal fulfillment.

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

The music for the older parts of the game sound horrible to me - especially Unigan and Miglance Castle, I always have to all but mute it whenever I go there. Also the cat-scratch sounds of like Industrial Ruins, I really hated running that 3rd Otherlands area b/c of it, so essentially did it without enjoying the sound.:-( Although IDA School was superb:-).

THAT is an excellent quote:-). That is why the Nuremberg Trials did so much for the ethics of post-war Europe, it was not merely Hitler showing us what was "bad", it was the fact that the badness was called out by name. I hope we do not forget that lesson of history - e.g. people of all political sides of the spectrum can agree that we need to punish the wrong-doers, and more importantly we need to actually STATE the fact that what they did was wrong?

There's just so much about sacrifice that we'll never cover it all here. Like one take on the guy jumping onto the tracks is that he would rather literally risk his own life like that than continue to live with the knowledge that he could have attempted to save the guy, and did not? In that way it is even a bit of a "selfish" act, but like... - I do not know how to say it without the negative connotations? - something that he did for the seizure victim, but also for himself? The part that resonates with people though is how it acts to reveal another, deeper part of his character: that he cared SO MUCH for this other guy, whether he even knew him or not, that he did not hesitate to take action to save him. Sacrifice yes, but also empathy, at which point doing the action cost him yes, but NOT doing the action would have cost him MORE. Which I suppose is the literal definition of a "sacrifice", isn't it?:-D

Boringnameman,

Aw, I think you're a bit harsh on Orleya - she's whiny, but it's realistic that she's stuck in a situation that she really doesn't want to be in and unable to step up without a lot of support. I think she'd get on with Yakumo, funnily enough. That said, I do agree that it's probably the weakest chapter. You should get over the trauma of the TTM grind though; the real whips are in your mind!

Marie didn't deprive the children of education through pragmatism, but because she wanted to destroy the Tower Defenders' culture. It's likely that she wouldn't have had the spare capacity to teach them if she did want to, but that aspect isn't explored.

The everyday struggle concept is a good one; it reminds me of the sadly departed Mobius FF in which most of the early plot is devoted to the laidback Warrior of Light's inability to embrace his role. "You didn't have to die for me, but I will live for you" is a line that stuck with me. Come to think of it, there are a few good games that examine the idea - Wild Arms 2 (which really deserves a remake) is all about the notion that "hero" means "sacrifice" and how this plays out in different ways for each of the main party members.

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

I suppose if you see her whinyness as caricature then yeah, but it was just SOOO over-the-top that it really imprinted itself on my mind! (but not so much in the good way) It would have helped if they had done it better, to more gently lead the reader into a better understanding of her situation. Like a truly selfish person would not have whined - they would just flat not have been there in the first place - so it really was a struggle as you say, but then DAYUM it was just so MUCH! (Is that what people call "Extra" these days?:-P)

Entropy teaches us that there is no gain without sacrifice, but yeah it is a real consideration whether giving up on one's entire future prospects is a heavier price than keeping one's future but altering its course to fulfill a new objective. Each person values different things - like a villager may not want to die, but wants even less to have their entire village sacked, hence may heavily risk their life or even flat give it up with certainty in order to protect the things they value most (although part of that would be playing into their own valuation of who they are, like "getting" to play the savior role, essentially exchanging their death in the further future for one in the moment to purchase something of greater perceived value). Euthenasia then adds quite a twist where someone exchanges all future good as well as future bad, without really "gaining" anything at all, and instead just avoiding the most extreme cost. #well_that_escalatedquickly

niantre,
niantre avatar

i appreciate your contribution to the discussion, but this reply has been posted 3 times! (a kbin hiccup, perhaps)

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

Okay I tried to delete two of them. Let us see if this reply gets repeated a few times as well.

I just tried to upvote someone in a different thread, and no matter how many times I tried to refresh the page, or change the URL to approach the overall article "differently", it refused to allow that.

Kbin/Lemmy definitely lack "polish" compared to Reddit, which is why when people say they do not want to come here, I understand - if that is a breaking point for them, then they truly would be unhappy here.

Although it looks like once again Reddit is taking aim at old-Reddit: I read an article saying that you can still forcibly set the URL to it but it now ignores user preferences (a checkbox saying to default to new vs. old-Reddit). It looks like they are doing the divide-and-conquer approach first making it "separate but equal", after which it will suddenly no longer be equal, at which point more people may want to come here.

niantre,
niantre avatar

i see only one reply now. thanks!

yea, kbin and lemmy is more like at the early adopter stage. for example, sometimes i get errors when upvoting, but only when voting for you, lol.

today i loaded a reddit thread on my laptop (with a LOT of RAM) and the page ran out of memory and crashed (!). personally, I think i'll take the buggy kbin over reddit.

OpenStars,
OpenStars avatar

You can say that again! (3 times? fast? while staring in a mirror? they say that if you do, Huffman will appear...:-P)

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