gnuplusmatt,
@gnuplusmatt@fosstodon.org avatar

is it possible to compile your own #sles? Or #ubuntupro?

#opensuse doesn't appear to be a bug for bug replacement and #ubuntu only has 5 years of LTS, with 10 if you pay...

This is a genuine question, I can't find any talk of this when discussing #redhat code drama the last few days

#hmm

Conan_Kudo,
@Conan_Kudo@fosstodon.org avatar

@gnuplusmatt For SLE, it's possible. @adamw, @Defolos, and I were discussing it in another thread: https://mastodon.social/@Defolos/110605192192351928

But nobody actually needs 1:1, they need "good enough".

What has happened is that people haven't looked at #CentOSStream critically to understand that it can suffice.

And it's a fully transparent build process:

Sources: https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/
Build system: https://kojihub.stream.centos.org/koji/

@carlwgeorge has stated many times that it's ~95% identical and is "RHEL compatible".

Conan_Kudo,
@Conan_Kudo@fosstodon.org avatar

@gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge Outside of needing certifications and everything that implies, CentOS Stream should suffice as an LTS distribution for the vast majority of users. And most people would prefer updates to be released as soon as they're qualified, rather than waiting for a minor version boundary that's potentially six months away. That particular quirk of Enterprise Linux is the result of needing to qualify stuff for certifications and other things.

vwbusguy, (edited )
@vwbusguy@mastodon.online avatar

@Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge Most recently we've had issues with ELRepo not being fully compatible with CentOS Stream, but the same issues weren't seen with AlmaLinux. I think it's because CentOS Stream and RHEL kernels don't always line up.

Conan_Kudo,
@Conan_Kudo@fosstodon.org avatar

@vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge The CentOS Kmods SIG builds most of what ELRepo offers for both CentOS Stream and RHEL. Have you checked out their stuff? https://sigs.centos.org/kmods/

vwbusguy, (edited )
@vwbusguy@mastodon.online avatar

@Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge I'll check it out. I think we were using it for the newer ceph drivers (cephfs, etc). I see be2net is there, which we're also using.

Conan_Kudo,
@Conan_Kudo@fosstodon.org avatar

@vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge If something is missing, feel free to ask them for it: https://gitlab.com/CentOS/kmods/sig/-/issues

passthejoe,
@passthejoe@ruby.social avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • gnuplusmatt,
    @gnuplusmatt@fosstodon.org avatar

    @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge

    the messaging about Stream has been extremely poor from the start.

    The reality is most people don't know why they want or need a "bug for bug" clone of RHEL in the first place. Spoilers - they probably don't

    gnuplusmatt,
    @gnuplusmatt@fosstodon.org avatar

    @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge

    the messaging about Stream has been extremely poor from the start.

    The reality is most people don't know why they want or need a "bug for bug" clone of RHEL in the first place. Spoilers - they probably don't.

    Other people seem to think Stream is git main, which is ludicrous

    thefossguy,
    @thefossguy@fosstodon.org avatar

    @gnuplusmatt @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge From what I know, CS isn’t deployed in peod because for security updates, the flow is inverted. Which is fair, RH will provide these to their paying customers first, but this is one of the reasons some stay away from CS.

    How often they patch is a different issue in and of itself :D

    gnuplusmatt,
    @gnuplusmatt@fosstodon.org avatar

    @thefossguy @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge

    I have noted that my CS boxes are late to get some security updates compared to the RHEL advisories, this makes sense if they are this weird notion of "forward ports" coming from downstream.

    A search seems to have some people claiming delays of months? That doesn't seem accurate to me.

    thefossguy,
    @thefossguy@fosstodon.org avatar

    @gnuplusmatt @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge Can’t comment on the time for the updates to reach you. It depends on several factors like severity, time taken to patch + generate a binary, distribution, mirrors updating. I go by “a few weeks” :)

    vwbusguy,
    @vwbusguy@mastodon.online avatar

    @thefossguy @gnuplusmatt @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge Yup. It's a significant difference and a major reason "just use Stream" hasn't cut it. AlmaLinux and RockyLinux got the patches sooner.

    adamw,
    @adamw@fosstodon.org avatar

    @gnuplusmatt the delay is meant to be a small number of days at max (for embargoed security updates, AIUI) but has been longer in some cases due to general competence issues (not conspiracy). basically there isn't a clear system/mechanism for making sure the changes are landed in stream when they're meant to be landed in stream. this is one of the areas that's being prioritized internally as a result of all the feedback on the change.

    adamw,
    @adamw@fosstodon.org avatar

    @gnuplusmatt in general, one of the things we seem to be taking from the feedback is 'stream has several areas where it needs improvement'. which is great, I guess! Kinda wish it had happened earlier, but hey.

    thefossguy,
    @thefossguy@fosstodon.org avatar

    @gnuplusmatt @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge you also can’t use audit tools meant for RHEL in CS because doesn’t use NEVR scheme (Name Epoch Version Release).

    https://twitter.com/opdroid1234/status/1672084266925080576

    vwbusguy,
    @vwbusguy@mastodon.online avatar

    @gnuplusmatt @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge Sure comes in handy when troubleshooting with other enterprise vendors to have a common distro release point.

    Conan_Kudo,
    @Conan_Kudo@fosstodon.org avatar

    @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @passthejoe @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge Well, I know of one company using CentOS Stream composes for that: https://composes.stream.centos.org/production/

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge RHEL is the Microsoft of Linux. It got an early mover advantage and if you need an app that's only on RH you basically have no option other than other RPM-based distros like SUSE or Oracle.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge But as someone who has written software for, handcrafted and maintained RPMs for, and supported developers on RHEL on and off for maybe 20 years all told... I wouldn't use "great" except sarcastically.

    Defolos,

    @resuna @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge Except that SLES is not in any way compatible with RHEL.

    While you can force rpm to install a RHEL rpm package on SLES, it will most likely not even install cleanly, let alone run. Oracle Linux is an entirely different story, as it aims to be a 1:1 rebuild of RHEL.

    mattdm,
    @mattdm@hachyderm.io avatar

    @Defolos @resuna @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge

    Notably, Oracle does not claim to be a 1:1 rebuild (although they do stress "100% application binary compatible"). They use their own kernel and emphasize being the best Linux on which to run their own applications.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @mattdm @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge They didn't need to make such a guarantee. We had multiple back versions of all three platforms in our QA testing pool.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @mattdm @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge But my point is that RHEL is dominant because they got companies like ours to support them regardless of the quality of their actual product, much like Microsoft or earlier IBM.

    mattdm,
    @mattdm@hachyderm.io avatar

    @resuna @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge

    Okay. I hope you understand if I sidestep a discussion about the quality of my employer's product.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @mattdm @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge Oh, I wondered about all the sudden dumping on Red Hat's competitors when it was kind of a side issue.

    vwbusguy, (edited )
    @vwbusguy@mastodon.online avatar

    @resuna @mattdm @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge Matt's point was valid, IMO. They do ship differences in the kernel. For example, they keep btrfs in the kernel when RHEL removes it.

    Please don't take anything I say as an endorsement of Oracle or Oracle Linux (though I do like btrfs).

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @vwbusguy @mattdm @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge OK, maybe my UNIX experience is too broad, going back to 1978 and having done professional work on every side of every schism in every generation of UNIX since then, including things like Regulus and Cromix that weren't based in any way on any UNIX code base and predated by years any attempt at a UNIX standard, but it does all seem a bit bikeshedding to me.

    vwbusguy, (edited )
    @vwbusguy@mastodon.online avatar

    @resuna @mattdm @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge I don't agree with what is happening but I greatly respect @mattdm and will vouch for his character and do not read his comments this way. Having had to deal with Oracle Linux in production before, it's not always a drop in replacement. It is an entirely fair point, IMO.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @vwbusguy @mattdm @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge

    If you're one of the few companies that actually needs to be running a RH family Linux, you're probably doing so because you need to run some industrial or scientific commercial application that only runs on a RH family Linux.

    In which case the vendor you're buying the OS (and the servers or workstations that run it) for will tell you if they support SUSE or Oracle, and if they do then you don't need to care.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge When I was at HP and Landmark the only Linux we supported were SLES and RHEL and the packages we shipped installed on both. Pretty much every commercial outfit that suppoted RHEL also supported SLES and later Oracle.

    Defolos,

    @resuna @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge Could be, but you shouldn't rely on SLES and RHEL being compatible. They might be mostly compatible, but there's enough naming differences, package version mismatches, configuration discrepancies, etc. that I really wouldn't rely on it.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge We had customers we contractually guaranteed that we would continue to support SUSE as well as RHEL for some number of years, and since they were buying those computers specifically to run our software I don't see the risk.

    Defolos,

    @resuna @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge I do see the risk, but I just contribute to SLES, so what do I know 🤷

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @vwbusguy @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge For our industrial customers SLES vs RHEL vs Oracle was a matter of corporate "personal preference".

    Since 2016 though I have been working at a company where all our Linux is servers running debian-based Linux, by now mostly Docker, and the nightmare of RPM is fading.

    vwbusguy,
    @vwbusguy@mastodon.online avatar

    @Defolos @resuna @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge If we're talking about Oracle product RPMs, keep in mind that they do some "interesting" things with RPMs sometimes.

    resuna,
    @resuna@ohai.social avatar

    @vwbusguy @Defolos @passthejoe @Conan_Kudo @gnuplusmatt @adamw @carlwgeorge I have had to do "interesting" things to RPMs sometimes, myself. It's an "interesting" format.

    juliank,
    @juliank@mastodon.social avatar

    @Conan_Kudo Don't forget that CentOS Stream only gets updates for half the time of RHEL, for the first 5 years of full support.

    This was really surprising to me to see CentOS Stream 8 EOL announcement for 2024.

    @gnuplusmatt @adamw @Defolos @carlwgeorge

    SFaulken,
    SFaulken avatar

    @gnuplusmatt The closest you're going to get is openSUSE Leap. Which is mostly identical to SLE. (I don't actually know what the fundamental differences are on your basic install)

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