What was your gateway product to open source?

I want to talk about our gateway products to open source. You know, that one product or software that made us go, “Whoa, this is amazing!” and got us hooked on the world of open source.

What made you to jump ships? Was it the “free” side of things like qBittorrent? Did you even know that some of your programs are open source before you got into the topic?

For me those products were:

  • Android
  • Firefox
  • VLC
  • Calibre

Am thinking to order some merch and I wanna make it more accessible to people unfamilliar with open source culture. Now, am looking for fairly normalized but still underrepresented product – maybe it could serve as a conversation starter and push some people to open source

BubblyMango,

Not my first libre product, but definitely the one that got me into searching for libre alternatives - OpenOffice. Despite not being great at the time (or ever), i was amazed by how complicated microsoft turned 365Office into. I suddenly had to buy subscriptions to all of the office products for outrages prices just so that i can have a simple words editors? Screw that, i googled for “open source office software” and never came back to m$Office.

hellfire103,
@hellfire103@sopuli.xyz avatar

The first FOSS product I ever used would have been either Firefox or OpenOffice.org, back in ~2010. I also used to like VLC.

The product that got me to go almost exclusively FOSS, however, was Linux Mint. I installed it on an old ThinkPad that my uncle had given me in 2019, and I was immediately impressed that this twelve-year-old notebook with (at the time) 4GB of RAM and an Intel Centrino processor could now easily outperform my brand new HP (which ran Windows).

It was only about a year later when I installed Mint on my HP, followed by my old Acer (which had been on a shelf for the last two years), and most recently my 2007 MacBook (which I keep around because it’s the only thing that can operate my scanner).

MudMan,
MudMan avatar

I... is that a thing that people have?

I mean, maybe I'm too old, but I don't know of anybody in real life that actively thinks there is a "world of open source". People mostly just use software. Software is either good or bad. It's either monetized or it isn't.

Maybe I come from a time where a piece of software attempting to charge a fee was seen as a cute quirk, or the extra charge if you wanted a printed manual, but yeah, this doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

d3Xt3r,

People mostly just use software. Software is either good or bad. It’s either monetized or it isn’t.

This is true, but also, this ideology is mainly seen in Windows of macOS users - these users they just use software.

But there most certainly is a “world of open source”, and you usually enter that world when you switch to an opensource OS like Linux. And the reason why it’s a whole new world is because you’d predominantly use opensource software on such an OS, so you’re going from a world full of mostly proprietary software, to a world full of mostly opensource software - it’s a stark contrast.

So usually, at least for me, any talks of entering the “world of open source” usually begins with switching to, or trying out, an opensource OS. At least on the desktop.

On the mobile space however, particularly in the Android world, there’s been a growing awareness and desire among the privacy conscious people to switch to opensource apps. More and more folks are tired of the ads and tracking and privacy issues that plague proprietary apps typically found on the Play Store, so people have been increasingly looking towards opensource apps, which are free from such annoyances, and as a result, opensource stores such as F-Droid and Droidify have been gaining in popularity.

So there’s most definitely a world of open source out there, and the first step into that word usually beings with people getting fed up with corporations screwing them over, and thus looking for alternatives.

MudMan,
MudMan avatar

I have a bunch of asterrisks to that characterization. People on Android are on an open source OS and don't get into "the world of open source" much at all. That makes me think your narrative there is mostly true of performatively avoiding other software.

Honestly, my first time installing Linux was in a different millenium, and my personal experience is that the "world of open source" you describe comes down to sharing notes and taking pride about the rough edges and bad UX involved in the process as a badge of honor or sign of moral purity.

In my experience people using open source software that works well and integrates seamlessly cross-platform don't go to a different world. They just... you know, install Blender and do the work they need to do. Or use Android. Or set up a NAS and use it to store their files. Or have a Rapberry Pi and use it to play games. You know, they do things.

I'm cool with open source. I'll prefer an open source alternative when two options are equal in features and UX. I'll be honest, though, if there is a "world of open soruce" as you define it, it seems mostly kind of annoying.

d3Xt3r,

People on Android are on an open source OS

No they’re not, at least, not by default. The Android that’s pre-installed on most phones is actually closed source, the only reason I mentioned Android is because it’s the only mainstream mobile OS which allows you to sideload apps and even install alternative app stores. There’s regular threads here and even back on Reddit showcasing opensource apps, and even people asking for opensource alternatives.

There’s most certainly an opensource world, whether you acknowledge it or not, and I don’t see why it’s “annoying”.

MudMan,
MudMan avatar

Could have fooled me, because I have maybe half a dozen Android installs on devices that run all the same applications and are functionally identical to any manufacturer version out there without being related to them at all.

That's my entire point, there is no major concern for most people about where their Android build is sourced as long as it runs Android apps. If the open source "world" is not dictated by being built on open source code and instead dictated by a label of purity based on the lack of proprietary, monetized or closed source portions then... yeah, that's annoying. It's computer veganism. I don't begrudge your choice to engage in it, but I do demand my own freedom to eat a salad any way I want it without arguing the merits of the lard that went into fying my croutons.

If nothing else, I'd urge for caution thinking that this slice of open source fundamentalism is who open source software is primarily serving (it's not, that'd be the users that use the software for software things) and some self-awareness about that group of users being out there.

d3Xt3r,

Could have fooled me, because I have maybe half a dozen Android installs on devices that run all the same applications and are functionally identical to any manufacturer version out there without being related to them at all.

???

there is no major concern for most people about where their Android build is sourced as long as it runs Android apps.

And that’s not my point at all. As I mentioned earlier, I only mentioned Android because it’s the only mainstream mobile OS which allows sideload apps and has alternative app store. Whether Android in itself is opensource or not is irrelevant in this context, when I’m discussing specifically about Android apps, as an example. Also, I never claimed it was a concern for “most” people, and again, that’s besides the point.

the open source “world” is not dictated by being built on open source code and instead dictated by a label of purity based on the lack of proprietary, monetized or closed source portions then… yeah, that’s annoying. It’s computer veganism

Actually, it isn’t. It (the motivation for opensource) has nothing to do any of the things you mentioned, but more about transparency and control for end users (and faster development lifecycles for developers). As I’ve repeatedly mentioned, people are increasingly getting sick of their apps being filled with ads and trackers and all the corporate spying and data harvesting, and the general enshittification of services. Which is one of the factors driving end users seeking out opensource software.

MudMan,
MudMan avatar

No, it is not. You say that but there is zero evidence that "people" are leaving commercial software for open source software based on concerns about transparency and control. Those are positives in most people's minds, sure, but the open source software that dominates against commercial alternatives is the one that leads on features and usability. Sometimes solely on price and free access. Those factors are at best a tertiary priority, and sometimes not even that.

That's what I'm saying here. The online circle that considers that transparency and control are the primary reason to choose software at the expense of feature limitations or poor UX is a very small niche disproportionately focused on those issues. And performatively so, at least in highly visible places like social media and dedicated influencers.

I think open source is great. It's important. And yes, once monetization encroaches into the feature set (see Chrome attempting to DRM the Internet) it's crucial to have an open source alternative to bypass the loss of functionality. But the market doesn't move to alternatives based on their open source nature, they choose the most convenient software available to do the thing they need to do. Sometimes that software is commercial, sometimes it's free but closed source, sometimes it's open source. That's fine. It's not gonna change and it doesn't have to.

That is important because sometimes open source devs forget about that and don't focus enough on the things that matter to consumers. And sometimes the open source community, such as it is, will excuse this or even take pride on working around it on the basis of that performative sense of belonging and righteousness. I think that's a risk for everybody, which is the part that annoys me about it.

d3Xt3r,

That’s what I’m saying here. The online circle that considers that transparency and control are the primary reason to choose software at the expense of feature limitations or poor UX is a very small niche

And what I’m saying is, why does that matter here? The argument was about whether or not the opensource world exists, and has nothing to do with how big or small this niche is.

That is important because sometimes open source devs forget about that and don’t focus enough on the things that matter to consumers. And sometimes the open source community, such as it is, will excuse this or even take pride on working around it on the basis of that performative sense of belonging and righteousness. I think that’s a risk for everybody, which is the part that annoys me about it.

I don’t see what’s wrong with that or why it should annoy you? If you disagree with the dev’s philosophy, then fork the software and fix it yourself, that’s the beauty of opensource - you don’t need to agree with the dev or wait for them. And if you don’t have the skills to fix it yourself, sponsor someone who can. Or just use a different software. No one’s holding a gun against your head and forcing you here. There’s no reason it should annoy you.

MudMan,
MudMan avatar

See, it's annoying because I do care. Like I said, I think OS is important. The culture around it determines how projects grow and are handled, and that's a much bigger problem than "disagreeing with a dev".

Regardless, the idea of forking forever based on petty disagreements and cultural drama is very much part of the problem, not a solution and an unsustainable pattern. It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that because the code is accessible there is no room for feedback or criticism. The free hand of the market will not fix all problems, whether it's with code or the economy.

DeadlineX,

My buddy’s mom took his pc as punishment for some nonsense. We cobbled together some parts so he could secretly play an online flash game with me. His frames were seconds behind mine. But we installed Ubuntu on it since we couldn’t afford windows in high school. So I learned about Linux.

renard_roux,

I just really wish I could answer ‘Obsidian’ 😓

klangcola,

Firefox 1.0

Not only was it better than IE6, it was also free! Not sure how aware I was of the libre aspect initially, but around the same time I also dabled in (Mandrake? Mandriva?) Linux, which exposed me to GNU, GPL, and the idea of copyleft.

And then there was VLC.

RickRussell_CA,

Emacs.

No really, it was like 1989 and I had to learn Unix systems for classes, and this white haired Emacs advocate convinced me to try it.

MangoKangaroo, (edited )

Although I technically used OSS before (ie Firefox), Linux (Ubuntu) is what made me actually start caring about it.

MJBrune,

The very first FOSS software I used was red hat Linux. My dad brought home a copy of it and left it laying next to our copy of windows. Next time I had to install an OS I found it and tried it. It was terrible. Didn’t do anything I wanted to do. Put windows in the computer.

iByteABit,

I’ve used a few open source programs before studying CS without knowing what FOSS was, but the time when I really got into it and started diving deeper is probably after installing Arch Linux

GenBlob,

Teeworlds. When I was a kid I searched up “free online multiplayer games on pc” and it actually led me to this Wikipedia article full of open source games. I tried out teeworlds and I was hooked on it and it led me to playing other open source games like cube 2 and open arena. In my head, the term open source meant “free stuff”. Searching for open source stuff led me to discovering Linux and trying it though the Wubi installer and eventually moving to it a few years later.

liss_up,

For me, the gateway was via palm pilot careware. My dad had a PDA when I was a kid, and he let me learn how to program it. Then I learned that there were websites to download software for it, and some of that software was “careware”, ie pay only if you’re able. Something clicked in my head that I could both write and access software without cost being a barrier, and that got me reading about FLOSS philosophy as I entered high school and suddenly I was dual booting ubuntu on the intel iBook I had saved up for and then it was too late for me: FLOSS had me.

ImpossibleRubiksCube,

Real long time ago. It was either Blender in its early days, or maybe Nethack as a child.

glitched_lesbian,

Crostini (The Chromebook Linux solution)

viking,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

There really wasn’t a specific gateway product, and I’m still using closed and open source solutions back to back.

User experience and user interface are more important to me than open source. The only consideration I have beyond that would be privacy & security.

For instance I’ve always used Firefox and rejected Chrome due to data privacy concerns, and would use a portable chromium installation if a website was inaccessible with FF. On the other hand side MS Office and Photoshop are vastly superior to libre office and gimp.

When it comes to applications I use once in a blue moon for a few minutes at a time, I’ll usually go for FOSS, but moreso because it’s free and the UI can be as ugly as it wants if I don’t have to stare at it for hours on end.

And well, I absolutely despise Apple as a company, so using Android was pretty much without alternatives, after BlackBerry discontinued their OS.

Crotaro,

I’m very much the same. It mostly depends on “does the open source program do what I need/want?” If not, I’m okay with using a closed source version of it.

My current number one example here would be spreadsheet calculators. Years ago (and for my personal use) I only used LibreOffice/OpenOffice because it did/does all I need. But at work I need to use MS Excel not only because it’s what the company has but also because the tables function and everything that relates to it (like data slicers, automatic expansion of formulas and formats, etc.) is really awesome and either super complex to replicate or straight up impossible in LibreOffice. And a couple months ago I decided to optimize the Excel sheets at work by incorporating some VBA macros. It’s super useful and I couldn’t find an open source alternative to it that would not run into problems on existing VBA-Excel sheets very, very quickly.

On the other hand I have photo editing / art programs. For those, I happily hopped from one FOSS to another (GIMP to Krita and I think I had a third one at some point as well) because I actually only need the “basic” and “on the surface” tools of such programs. And so I never even began feeling a pressure to use a closed source program.

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