‘We Cannot Win’ Says Top Russian Commander

https://archive.li/Z0m5m

The Russian commander of the “Vostok” Battalion fighting in southern Ukraine said on Thursday that Ukraine will not be defeated and suggested that Russia freeze the war along current frontlines.

Alexander Khodakovsky made the candid concession yesterday on his Telegram channel after Russian forces, including his own troops, were devastatingly defeated by Ukrainian marines earlier this week at Urozhaine in the Zaporizhzhia-Donetsk regional border area.

“Can we bring down Ukraine militarily? Now and in the near future, no,” Khodakovsky, a former official of the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, said yesterday.

“When I talk to myself about our destiny in this war, I mean that we will not crawl forward, like the [Ukrainians], turning everything into [destroyed] Bakhmuts in our path. And, I do not foresee the easy occupation of cities,” he said.

gravitas_deficiency,

“We can [though] enter a phase that is most unfavorable for Ukraine in its ‘independent’ state: a phase of neither peace nor war. We could be in this phase if, instead of the special military operation, the [currently occupied] territories were recognized and officially taken under guardianship. But it would require a completely different twist of history,” Khodakovsky said.

I find it consistently amazing and hilarious that Russian strategic leadership appears entirely incapable of recognizing that they can’t simply dictate geopolitics, warfare, and international borders to external parties. Ukraine - and to a lesser degree, its allies - get a vote too, and they’re not going to be “freezing” anything for the foreseeable future.

rammer,
@rammer@sopuli.xyz avatar

Unfortunately there are those in the west that agree. Either because they are paid/blackmailed to agree. Or they have been misled by the former.

Jaysyn,
Jaysyn avatar

Russia is going to love that new DMZ.

Aquilae,
@Aquilae@hexbear.net avatar

Browsing through top posts, and damn this didn’t age very well lol

brain_in_a_box,

And none of the libs have learned a thing. They’re busy gushing over the claim that 90 percent of Russia’s army has been destroyed, and all the previous claims of imminent victory have been memory holed.

TheBlue22,

NO SHIT

crowsby,

I’m glad to see that incessant and pervasive whataboutism is welcome in the Fediverse. I was afraid for a few weeks that I had left it behind with Reddit but clearly that’s not the case.

ThomasMuentzner,
@ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net avatar

what about it ? whats wrong with comparison ? It gives perspective on Claims and Hypocracy …

yata,

Whataboutism isn’t perspective. It is just calling out completely unrelated wrongs in an attempt to deflect from the wrong being discussed.

bigwag1,

Yet, usually related. It’s only whataboutism when what it’s about is an inconvenient rebuttal to the former statement. Claiming whataboutism is an attempt to deflect the rebuttal.

crowsby,

Nothing is wrong with it, it’s awesome and I love it. I’m something of a whataboutism aficionado and am planning on printing out this thread and laminating it for future reference.

ThomasMuentzner,
@ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net avatar

exactly i dont know what the big issue is it leads to wisedom (do let me tell you , sometimes i think there is a evil empire out there putting out all these words out into impressional youngpeoples Mouth to confuse and Mislead them , Aliens probably)

anyway , now that we have established “what- about -ism” as a valid instrument of Analysis , we can use it on historical data …

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/02343531-5a69-430f-8aff-699ce9c4548a.png

On this scientific Paper , yo ucan see the generall DIFFERENT reaction of the Western Puplic towards the SAME ACT. this is very significant , and its tells us that THE ACT ist not the real issue here ! Something Else is the Issue here ! can we investigate the underlying dynamic ?

Could there be another Set of Data ?,

Another reference point ? ,

That puts the Reaction to “the Act” in order ?

Is there Something that connects all of the “mild Reaction cases” , and is there opposingly also something that conects all the “non -mild Reaction”

we are working the Mine of Knowledge and wisdom here , do you feel it … Rich rich Soil … , we are nearly there !!! Do you Feel it allready , there is wisdom here !

you do the last step …

and then you see it …

All thanks to your trusty local organic Shovel called “what about it”

"no wonder the -'Belive Us Blindly -Conglomerat™ ’ Dont want me to use this Product , you think while you dig further , it is actually interesting ! ",

you think , while you dig further …

Flaps,

Are you talking about the amount of people who do a ‘whataboutism’, or the people who throw ‘whataboutism’ around in every thread as soon as they’re being pressured on their own ideological inconsistencies?

yata,

Whataboutism is pretty well defined. We know what it is and when people are using it to deflect from issues they don’t want to discuss.

redtea,

Is what about whataboutism whataboutusm? If not, what about whataboutism about whatabout whataboutism?

crowsby,

Yes

ghosts,

deleted_by_author

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  • JackBruh,

    Ukraine will win the power of Freedom and Friendship. Seethe commie seethe

    LoveSausage, (edited )
    @LoveSausage@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Fuck off nazi scum

    JackBruh,

    You’re the one who has a Nazis Cum

    LoveSausage,
    @LoveSausage@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Hope you die painfully

    yata,

    Does it ever get tiring to project as much as you do?

    anoncpc,

    Kyivpost, propaganda rag.

    st33lb0ne,

    Russia allready lost. They just keep ignoring it

    bigwag1,

    If we ever lose, so does the world lol

    TeddyKila,

    do you feel in charge?

    Doubledee,
    @Doubledee@hexbear.net avatar

    I’m curious, do you still feel this way?

    Awoo,
    yata,

    Yes, more shitty memes. That will definitely make people fall in line with your cause and not think you have nothing positive to contribute but shitposting.

    argv_minus_one,

    Russia may not be able to win, but it’s got enough nukes to make sure everyone loses.

    shiteyes2,

    Lol I read the whole thread. Yeah somebody is definitely winning this mess shall we interview the pile of bodies on the east side or the west side hmm I don’t know

    ennemi,

    It’s an investment, remember

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    In. Democracy!

    freedom-and-democracy

    purahna,
    @purahna@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    this thread is wild

    can we remember, everyone:

    1. discussion on who is winning has no bearing on discussion of who is in the right, and vice versa
    2. Russia, Ukraine, and NATO can all be evil and wrong for separate and true reasons
    3. criticizing NATO does not amount to supporting Putin
    4. criticizing Putin does not amount to supporting NATO
    freagle,

    Can we also remember that Russia is a country and Putin is it’s head. You don’t even know the name of the top leadership of NATO. You don’t say this is Biden’s proxy war but you imagine every single decision is Putin’s.

    And also, stop psychologizing world leaders as though you have a parasocial relationship with them.

    airlinefood,

    Geopolitics is exactly the same as my interpersonal relationships actually

    McCainRBGcreampie,

    Um, actually, geopolitics is YA literature and marvel movies.

    Harry Potter zelensky-pain

    vs

    Thanos putin-wink

    and if you disagree, you’re a fascist communist putler-lover

    ProfessorAdonisCnut,

    Can’t wait for people to not care anymore about the gallant people of Ukraine under Russian occupation because they got Marvel fatigue and stopped watching the war 3 seasons ago.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Haven’t most people already given up on this? I thought it was just us weird politics people who don’t get invited to parties now?

    SoyViking,
    @SoyViking@hexbear.net avatar

    For what it’s worth, most of the Ukraine flags that people put up in my city when the war started has been taken down months ago.

    oce,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    A democratically elected president and a dictator don’t represent their people with the same legitimacy nor do they have the same concentration of powers at their personal disposal.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Are you under the delusion that Ukraine is a democracy?

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    You have to be more specific than that I’m not clear who you’re referencing.

    InappropriateEmote,

    Putin’s approval in Russia consistently polls extremely high and his decisions generally supported, whereas Biden’s approval hovers around the high 30s-percentage, breaking records for lowest approval in the history of the country. And you think Putin has even a modicum of the power that the leader of the country that is world hegemon has?

    data-laughing

    SeaJ,

    Odd that Putin still has to stop obviously rig his elections considering how support is so high.

    Alaskaball,
    @Alaskaball@hexbear.net avatar

    Like how the American democrats put their whole ass on the scale in order to get biden to win their nomination, or how the entire american media apparatus openly collaborated with the democrats in order to drag biden’s senile corpse past trump’s bloated corpse to the finish line?

    Russia is a product of American interference, and their government is but a reflection of the wretched system of governance that is the American government.

    WldFyre,

    That means anything Russia does is bad, then, right?

    Alaskaball,
    @Alaskaball@hexbear.net avatar

    That means anything Russia does is Blowback in America’s face.

    InappropriateEmote,

    It is indeed odd that US propaganda can’t make up its mind between “Putin Ebil Crazed Dictator Sole Actor Behind War” and “Russian Brainpan Predisposed to Being Big Meanies.” So Which is it? Do Russians actually not support Putin and the SMO or are all of these western sources talking about his soaring approval actually just on Putin’s payroll?

    SeaJ,

    Those western sources also agree that he rigged his election. Not saying he needed to but it was very obvious that he did.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Not saying he needed to but it was very obvious that he did.

    Come on. Take like ten seconds to think about what you typed out here.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Are we talking about Biden or Putin I can’t keep track?

    InappropriateEmote,

    Not saying he needed to but it was very obvious that he did.

    picard

    Do you hear what you’re saying?

    Putin: “Even though I have overwhelming support, I’m going to conduct a giant conspiracy to win an election I would win anyway. It may come with very high cost and no actual benefit, but YOLO. In fact it might even undermine all that support I already have. But fuck it, I’m an evil dictator, so that’s what I’m gonna do.”

    putin-wink

    Those western sources also agree that he rigged his election.

    Maybe, just maybe… no, no, hear me out… Maybe you should start questioning all the things you hear from those western sources?

    oce,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    Polls are not trustworthy in a country with no freedom of press and repressed/assassinated political opposition.
    Yes, Putin over his decades of authoritarian regime has way more power over his country than Biden or any democratically elected head of state over theirs.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Christ let me go get the fucking qoute. Third time today.

    “During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”

    When it good country polls good and accurate

    When it bad country polls bad lies and falsehoods

    Every fucking time.

    Flaps,

    Evergreen quote

    freagle, (edited )

    So the Russian Federation, a republic, built in the aftermath of the dismantling of the largest bureaucratic democracy in the world built under the eye of the West for the purpose of liberty and freedom and economic capitalism, that Russian Federation is so different than the West that we can attribute nearly all bad things done by Russia to Putin, but in the West it’s such a complex and nuanced situation that it’s really the whole system to blame?

    Keep huffing cope. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

    InappropriateEmote,

    You don’t say this is Biden’s proxy war

    I-was-saying

    purahna,
    @purahna@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    I don’t imagine that every decision is Putin’s, and it’s just as much Biden’s proxy war as Putin’s except that Putin has been head of government for the entire duration of the build-up whereas the build-up started 4 US heads of government ago. I’m just using the terminology most frequently used in the discourse.

    Also I will psychologize any world leader I please, any leader of a bourgeoisie state is a horrible wretched ghoul

    shodan5000,

    Fake news. Total war propaganda lol.

    snowiekitten,

    yea as much as i love ukraine this article is some obvious bs

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Just wondering, what is it you love about Ukraine? Do you have family there?

    AsRedAsMonkeysAss,

    He’s gonna jump out d window soon

    CascadeOfLight,

    If you want to know what the smartest guy in the US military thinks, read this

    (Assuming, of course, that you don't consider the Marine Corps Gazette to be Russian propaganda)https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/5c6c7c16-0808-4eed-91c0-d32f01d125cf.jpeg https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/ea3a1dcf-532e-44c5-9bb6-690e6c1dd5fb.jpeg https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/688be796-62a4-43f0-bd52-93186c1ac10f.jpeg https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/037d74e0-8a11-43f8-a990-26f1f4d18f34.jpeg


    Ukraine is on its fourth army, which has been badly mauled in a counterattack lasting two months with gains measured in single digit miles and casualties in the tens of thousands.https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/75e7c1db-18a9-43e1-8e83-f5216a0f8a41.png


    This is who they were sending to the front in APRIL LAST YEARhttps://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/6f9908de-4f30-4251-9651-4d2e36c7fc7e.pngOld men and boys


    But at least Russia's out of missiles!https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/bcb7f0d6-c751-4493-89a5-6f13ee44a191.png

    Riffraffintheroom,

    That gazette article was a breathe of fresh air. So novel to read a stark, bare bones, and honest account of how the war has played out. Until “the brutality inherent to Leninism” I forgot I was reading a USMC rag.

    Tankiedesantski,

    the brutality inherent to Leninism”

    sicko-wistful

    Sinonatrix,

    If you want a picture, imagine a spicy op-ed stamping on a trotskyist newspaper forever

    ElHexo,

    Marinus is a few people (including that guy)

    CascadeOfLight,

    Ah, I didn’t know that!

    UnicodeHamSic,

    It is a proxy war against America. You don’t win those. You just set yourself up a good position and dig in. America gets bored and leaves and then you can pick over what is left of what was destroyed. So you don’t win, you just wait for America to forfeit.

    LeateWonceslace,

    Imagine liking a queerphobic dictatorship.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Imagine thinking Ukraine is any less queerphobic than Russia.

    AntiOutsideAktion,
    @AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

    Me, losing every chess game I ever play, but at least my mind is pure because I don’t think like those dirty white pieces.

    UnicodeHamSic,

    What are you talking about? I said I don’t like America. How did you get it backwards?

    crapwittyname,

    America is a plutocracy which accepts queerness in its federal law. Your gotcha went too broad.

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    which accepts queerness in its federal law.

    Bwahahaha

    Oh wait you’re serious

    Bwahahahahahahahahaha

    crapwittyname,

    Mate. Respect for Marriage Act 2022 is a federal law protecting same sex marriages. It’s there. It’s fact. Bwaha etc.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    The Respect For Marriage act of 2022 requires ONLY that states recognize existing same sex marriages. If Obergefell was overturned tomorrow, zombie laws kick in over a good chunk of the country banning same sex marriage. And Roberts as well as Thomas both opposed Obergefell.

    And that’s not evne getting into the fact that you’re sitll only talking about a single piece of legislation which ONLY requires that states recognize such marriages, it does absolutely nothing besides that. Which means that it is not only inadequate in what it does to protect queer marriage, but also that it’s a very minor piece of legislation in the grand scheme of queer discrimination.

    crapwittyname,

    That’s not the point. I feel I’ve already answered your argument in other comments. If you don’t agree, please let me know why and I’ll happily address it.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    You have done nothing to address the argument actually.

    crapwittyname,

    Ok. I did ask you to explain why?

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    I pointed out that the specific law you talk about does not in fact “Protect same sex marriages”, the act does absolutely nothing to stop states from banning same sex marriage, and that even if it did that it only covers a tiny aspect of queer discrimination. The act does not demand that states accept queerness, it does not demand that all states allow or protect gay marriage, it does not prevent states from banning same sex marriage, it does none of that. ALL it does is say that Texas can’t say a New York marriage is invalid because the people involved are of the same sex.

    crapwittyname,

    I mean that’s just completely false. The Act requires the U.S. federal government and all U.S. states and territories to recognize the validity of same-sex marriages.

    From the Act:

    Congress finds the following: ((a) In General.–No person acting under color of State law may deny– (1) full faith and credit to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State pertaining to a marriage between 2 individuals, on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals; or (2) a right or claim arising from such a marriage on the basis that such marriage would not be recognized under the law of that State on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals.

    Seems pretty clear, no?

    Again I’m not trying to say this is a fait accompli and we can just sit back on our laurels and consider it done. But it’s a hell of a lot better than Russia’s law.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    I mean that’s just completely false

    No, it’s completely right and quoting a bit about how im right is an odd choice.

    Again. What I said was this

    ALL it does is say that Texas can’t say a New York marriage is invalid because the people involved are of the same sex.

    To which you respond with the text of the law stating that the law bans any government employee from not recognizing a marriage from another state on the grounds that its a gay marriage. At this point you are either trolling or acting in such bad faith you may as well be.

    crapwittyname,

    . At this point you are either trolling or acting in such bad faith you may as well be.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    “No u” isn’t the argument you think it is. But given your arguments so far, I’m hardly surprised this where you ended up.

    crapwittyname,

    There has been nothing wrong with my arguments. Acting like there has just doesn’t make it so.

    h3doublehockeysticks,
    ThereRisesARedStar,

    yikes-1 yikes-2 yikes-3

    Someone else is going to have to explain the ignorance present in this statement for I do not have the time or energy, could one of our cishet hexbears be a good ally?

    crapwittyname,

    You are incapable. That is because the comment is factually correct. US Federal law has protections for queerness. The cited law proves it. What point are you trying to make exactly?

    ThereRisesARedStar, (edited )

    The long and short of it is that legalizing gay marriage isn’t even a strong step to lgbt liberation, it is literally just tepid assimilationism. We are only “accepted by federal law” in most narrow and on their terms sense. Call me when the US government federally covers trans Healthcare, makes conversion torture a federal crime, deals with the queer(especially child) homelessness problem, and purges the people calling us all pedophiles.

    Also, learn some fucking humility.

    crapwittyname,

    But that’s not what was under discussion. Does there exist a federal law which protects queerness?
    Yes, yes there does.

    Is it perfect? By no means, there’s a long way to go. But the characterization of the US as queerphobic in the context of comparison to Russia is a nonsense. Both-sidesing this issue is a disgusting affront to the LGBTQ people suffering under Putin.

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    You’re original wording was:

    which accepts queerness in its federal law.

    You do not know what queerness is if you think that is met by gay marriage being legalized federally.

    Is it perfect? By no means, there’s a long way to go. But the characterization of the US as queerphobic in the context of comparison to Russia is a nonsense. Both-sidesing this issue is a disgusting affront to the LGBTQ people suffering under Putin.

    This is whataboutism. Also US capitalists fund the passage of anti-lgbt laws and hate campaigns globally that create basically pogroms against gay and trans people. So it is ridiculous because the US is much worse to gay and trans people globally.

    They also helped illegally and undemocratically dissolve the USSR and created the situation for Putin to exist in in the first place. Who knows, if they didn’t interfere maybe the USSR would currently be as progressive as Cuba is on the issue of queer liberation. And Ukrainian and NATO capitalists and Russian capitalists wouldn’t be sending conscripts to their deaths.

    crapwittyname,

    Legalising same sex marriage is an acceptance of queerness. At no point did I say that the issue was “met” (i.e. settled). In fact, I clearly said “it’s not perfect”.

    Its not whataboutism though. It’s a response to the original (flippant) claim that the US is a queerphobic dictatorship.

    I have not seen any pogroms against gay or trans people that have been funded or supported by the US government. Maybe going back a ways?

    I fucking hate the US government. Just need to mention that. They’re a joke and I want to see huge reforms, though I don’t hold out much hope.
    I hate the Russian government more, and with good reason, especially on the issue of queerphobia. Are you genuinely of the belief that the Russian government is less queerphobic than the US govt? If so, please explain that to me in big letters so that I can understand properly.

    ThereRisesARedStar, (edited )

    Legalising same sex marriage is an acceptance of queerness

    Its not going to get less ridiculous if you keep saying it.

    Are you even lgbt? Maybe you should ask some trans leftists what they think of this. Maybe read some Leslie Feinberg.

    It’s a response to the original (flippant) claim that the US is a queerphobic dictatorship.

    It is lmao. It is literally a dictatorship of capital with the most queer people imprisoned per population.

    I have not seen any pogroms against gay or trans people that have been funded or supported by the US government. Maybe going back a ways?

    Look at every single liberation movements that they mass murdered and you will find countless queer folks. Queer folks have always lead the charge against US imperialism in such movements.

    But also, I’m talking about US capitalists lobbying governments and running private campaigns. And the capitalists and the government are in the same bed together.

    I fucking hate the US government. Just need to mention that. They’re a joke and I want to see huge reforms, though I don’t hold out much hope. I hate the Russian government more, and with good reason, especially on the issue of queerphobia. Are you genuinely of the belief that the Russian government is less queerphobic than the US govt? If so, please explain that to me in big letters so that I can understand properly.

    Yes, they are more queerphobic, because they kill more queer people globally, and seek to destroy liberation movements globally. Russia might have worse laws but the US has more queer blood on its hands, and is ultimately responsible for a right wing Russian government existing in the first place.

    crapwittyname,

    its not going to get less ridiculous if you keep saying it.

    Nor will it get any less true until you refute it.

    Are you even LGBT?

    Fuck off. I don’t know you.

    The US is a plutocracy. You need to have a look at the definitions. It’s definitely not a dictatorship because there is a regular handover of power. Is it any better than a dictatorship? Up for discussion. But the definitions of words have to matter, and you’ve got the wrong one.

    So no examples of US government-led/supported pogroms against queer people then? Not even a single link to a pogrom which was supported by someone who was supported by an American capitalist who is demonstrably in bed with the American government? That’s looking like a pretty weak line of argument at the minute, though I’m open to hearing more.

    Your last paragraph is similarly hugely lacking in supporting evidence. It may be true, but at the moment I have to dismiss it utterly since it’s just your opinion, and, again, I don’t know you.

    ThereRisesARedStar, (edited )

    Most of what youre saying isn’t worth responding to; for example, claiming that the rich aren’t in bed with our politicians lol, but for the audience, some history:

    Here the Yankees are admitting to influencing the elections after the coup to keep the communists out of power because the people had previously voted not to dissolve the USSR before the coup and they were afraid of communists regaining control of the government.

    Here is a fun article on how the US is responsible for violence targetting lgbt people worldwide Just a tiny sample though

    Here is a relevant essay on liberals like you speaking over queer liberation activists.

    crapwittyname,

    Except I never made that claim. Is English not your first language? Your comprehension seems a bit below par and I don’t want to bully you out of the conversation if that’s the case. I could be less idiomatic if that would help?

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Not even a single link to a pogrom which was supported by someone who was supported by an American capitalist who is demonstrably in bed with the American government?

    Stop being a debate pervert.

    crapwittyname,

    Is it against some rule of yours to ask for evidence?

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Did you click on the links and read them?

    crapwittyname,

    Yep. They don’t prove the US is a queerphobic dictatorship. Not even close. I don’t know what more to say. Maybe you should open your mind a bit? There is some pretty good literature out there on the nature and inherent value of truth that might be illuminating for you.

    And one last thing. I’m not a liberal. Not everyone who you argue with is.

    redtea,

    I’m curious now, if you’re not a liberal what are you?

    crapwittyname,

    What do you want to know? Do you want me to label myself? PolComp score? What?

    redtea,

    ? You said you weren’t a liberal, suggesting that you think you’re something else. Which raises the question, what is that?

    crapwittyname,

    I’m not a liberal because I hold strong anti-capitalist views, for one example.

    redtea,

    Okay you say you’re not a liberal and you’re an anti-capitalist but what are you, in the positive? Unless you only define yourself by what you’re not?

    crapwittyname,

    I’m not into identity politics either. I am far left, anti authority, pro-worker, pro-human, pro-science. Lots of things. What about you?

    redtea,

    I’m a Marxist. I reject identity politics, too. You should look into Marxism. It could be right up your street.

    crapwittyname,

    Nice! I’ve read the manifesto, most of Das Kapital and some of his essays and his thinking is a big part of my worldview. I’m reading “at the café” by Malatesta at the moment and I think I like it enough to recommend.

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Thats because you did not ask for links proving that, youre either being a debate pervert or have the memory of a goldfish.

    crapwittyname,

    Or, I’m considering your argument which is supported by your evidence that some US citizens aided homophobia in other parts of the world. What was that again?

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Debate pervert, got it.

    Flaps,

    You’ve been provided what you’ve asked for now shut up and read it loser

    crapwittyname,

    I’m sorry, the claims are not supported by the provided links.

    Flaps,

    While I disagree, I can see where you’re coming from. Shouldn’t have called you that. Gonna do some introspection, since this entire federation thing and the influx of bad faith actors I didn’t encounter for three years, interaction with other users has made me pretty hostile. Sorry about that.

    crapwittyname,

    No worries

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    Legalising same sex marriage is an acceptance of queerness.

    Even if that were true, same sex marriage is legal because of a court decision, Obergefell v. Hodges, not this act.

    crapwittyname,

    The Act nonetheless exists, and as such, proves my point quite handily.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    'So if Saudi Arabia passed the “Homos are humans too, I guess” act, which didn’t actually do anything, you would consider this proof that Saudi Arabia is accepting of LGBTQ people?

    crapwittyname,

    If the act protected queer people, then I would defend Saudi Arabia against comparisons with countries that actively litigate against the existence of queer people, like Russia, yes.
    But I would not consider it proof that Saudi was accepting of queer people. For that I would probably look at testimonies of queer people in the country. Like the ones you can see from millions of US citizens.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    You can indeed point to millions of queer US citizens and have them tell you the stories of the discrimination they have faced at the hands of the US government.

    crapwittyname,

    That seems like something which would be infinitely harder to do with Saudi subjects. Probably because they aren’t allowed to be gay.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    Using testimony of discrimination as evidence of acceptance is a novel strategy.

    crapwittyname,

    Glad to have surprised you. And yet, if you actually parse what I’m saying, you’ll see that the evidence in providing is a presumed lack of testimony being evidence of a lack of acceptance which indicates a comparison which is favourable to my argument.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Imagine having the reading comprehension of a sixth grader.

    purahna,
    @purahna@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Putin can hang from a barbed wire noose and also this is a US proxy war

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Wait a minute… Who invaded Ukraine in 2014, and again in 2021? Who illegally annexed sovereign territory? America is not blameless, but in this war they are just the arms dealer

    freagle,

    The USA has been training Ukraine military and irregulars for years. They organized a volunteer force to go fight there. They sent their politicians to support the right-wing coup. What the fuck are you talking about they are just arms dealers? They are providing recon and military intelligence, they are mobilizing their satellites and aerial assets, they are doing political work to get other nations to provide support and they are putting constraints on peace deals. They are not a fucking arms dealer.

    DauntingFlamingo,
    freagle,

    Was there a coup immediately after their visit?

    UnicodeHamSic,

    if you are right and they are just an arms dealer they are still the bad guys. You understand arm’s dealers are bad people right?

    UFODivebomb,

    No. That’s a reductionist take.

    “Can we have some weapons to defend ourselves?”

    "No! That’d make us evil. You should just die. "

    Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

    CascadeOfLight,

    You should just die

    Yes, rip bozos

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/aa54afe7-bb33-4cc8-8d59-35c9e5b193ba.png https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/f6b3ebd0-500b-4b35-b40e-78600e436219.jpeg

    My eternal grief for the hundreds of thousands of innocent Ukrainians pressed into the meatgrinder by their Nazi overlords, eternal death to the genocidal Kiev regime and their campaign of extermination against their own country’s citizens of Russian descent for eight years

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/2ddcfdf7-0a8d-44b0-b456-073b4b1e2deb.jpeg

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/10c908d2-39f6-4e55-8524-770503426369.jpeg

    CW: literally, unfathomably vilehttps://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/8951de87-ad02-4c29-add8-d511c416a27d.jpegThe Ukrainian fascist soldiers are offering you cans of ‘Separatist Baby Meat’!

    UFODivebomb,

    Needs more jpeg

    DauntingFlamingo,

    You realize the people in those photos are Russian citizens and connected to Wagner PMC, right? Identify each of them for us and prove you know what the hell you’re posting. Anyone can post a picture of a Nazi flag and say “See? SEE!??”

    brain_in_a_box,

    The people flying the Ukrainian flag are actually Russian?

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Yes. They are Wagner

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Prove it.

    SeaJ,

    I’m sure no Russian would ever got a Ukrainian flash for propaganda. /s

    SoyViking,
    @SoyViking@hexbear.net avatar

    Ukraine good, Russia bad. It follows that these Ukrainians doing bad stuff are in fact Russians.

    It’s a non-falsifiable orthodoxy that turns evidence on its head until it fits the pre-conceived narrative.

    InappropriateEmote,

    Do you enjoy carrying water for literal fascists?

    Reposting the same link as in my other comment, just because it so perfectly demonstrates how stupid and/or disingenuous it is to think that the near infinite written and photographic examples of Ukraine’s love of nazi iconography is actually a Russian false flag attempt:

    leftypol.org/edu/src/1662026001627.webm

    InappropriateEmote,

    Yeah, those damn Ruskies sure love carrying around banner portraits of Stepan Bandera and flying blue and yellow flags next to their swastikas and black suns and wolfsangels.

    All of these are Russian’s too, right? Especially the ones that say Azov Battalion? leftypol.org/edu/src/1662026001627.webm

    Flaps,

    You realize the people in those photos are Russian citizens and connected to Wagner PMC, right?

    Uh yea gonna need you to identify these Russian citizens in those pro bandera, ukraine flag waving marches here.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Uh yeah gonna need the person claiming the photos are legit to post some proof. Burden of proof is on the presenter. That was my comment that you replied to. Since you can’t, we can assume you are arguing in bad faith and have nothing to contribute

    Flaps,

    Bruv Idk what to tell you ukraine has a known problem with its far right elements, and here are pictures presented of exactly that.

    Uh yeah gonna need the person claiming the photos are legit to post some proof

    YOU claimed these pictures were Wagner pmcs dressing up and holding fake far right marches with Ukrainian iconography. YOU back that claim up.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    And the person posting them produced no sources.

    Tell you what: I’ll post a picture of Martha Stewart and Snoop (there are lots of these photos on the interwebs) and then I’ll start telling everyone Martha is Snoop’s secret lover. I’ve presented a narrative that cannot be proven and is not the real story, BUT THERE ARE PICTURES! You see, without some sort of context and verification, any picture can be used to present a false narrative.

    Flaps, (edited )

    Okay well

    presented a narrative that cannot be proven and is not the real story

    Ukraines problems with the far right HAVE been proven tho

    www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-far-right-menace-radical-militants-ultranationalists/amp/

    Interesting last part of linked article:

    Acknowledging that reality does not turn the Kiev government into a nest of fascists, as Kremlin propaganda has claimed, nor does it absolve Russia of its assault on Ukraine’s sovereignty and illegal seizure of Crimea. Ignoring Ukraine’s far right, on the other hand, can have dire consequences for the very dream of a free and democratic country which so many Ukrainians have fought, suffered, and died for.

    Guess what you’re doing?

    Next link is an article by The Guardian. It includes a collection of pictures, too. Are you going to tell them to identify every single person in those pictures, too?

    google.com/…/ultranationalism-in-ukraine-a-photo-…

    Another one by The Guardian:

    google.com/…/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-…

    Next article is by Reuters. The article opens with said paragraphe:

    As Ukraine’s struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law enforcement agencies.

    reuters.com/…/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUKKBN…

    Please note I’ve used exclusively western sources of which I suspect you’d refer to too. There are more, but I’m doubting your intellectual honest and curiosity, as these links were just one Google Search away.

    And before you call me a putler bot or anything, as your types often do, fuck putin, the war is horrible and the fact he started it is unforgivable. Russia is a neoliberal state that in no way aligns with my own ideology. This doesn’t mean I have to all of a sudden voice support for the Ukrainian state or nato for that matter, considering the many crimes of said state and military pact. It’s a war between neoliberal, highly corrupt states in which the Russian and ukrainian working class stand nothing to gain.

    What I’d wish to see (apart from revolutionary defeatism on both sides and a socialist takover of both states) is an end to the killing, the full return of Russia to the 2021 borders, independence for loehansk and donetsk, a neutral ukraine as a buffer between nato and Russia. But nothing points to Russia willing to give up gained ground, or to Ukraine being able to break through the russian defences. Looking at a map showing the gains after two months of counteroffensive makes this clear, it’s something I feel we can’t deny. To think ukraine is going to reach the sea of azov or crimea is nothing but hopeful idealism at best.

    So, assuming you too want and end to the killing, and view the saving of human lives as more important than regaining the regions currently occupied, we’d have to think about the fastest way to do that. Is it to keep sending shipments of weapons and ammo to Ukraine? Well, NATO has been doing that for a year and a half now, not exactly to great effect. Note that in that time, hundreds of thousands of people were killed or injured. We can scream that putin should just retreat back to the border, but we both know that’s just not going to happen, no matter how many conscripts are sent into Russian minefields and artillery kill zones.

    Well… Then what remain? In my mind, it’s negotiations. Ukraine will be presented with terms they deem unacceptable, but if they don’t want to run out of Ukrainians, they’ll have to accept. I suspect they’ll have to wave goodye to the donbas region, but I also believe the citizens of said region would rather be either independent or integrated as Russian territory.

    What would you like to happen, and how do you see that happening? Oh and if you ever get around to identifying the Russians in those pictures, hmu.

    InappropriateEmote,

    Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

    When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of “always throwing walls of text at people.” When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we “only have simplistic takes.”

    parenti-hands

    There’s no winning with you simple-minded dronies, but I guess there never is when one side can just make shit up that fits their vibes-based outlook on the world.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Which part was carefully chosen wording, and where are your citations?

    InappropriateEmote,

    What are you even asking for? What do you want citations on? As I made very clear with quoted text, I was responding to a claim about everyone on the hexbear instance.

    Do you want citations and careful wording that hexbear people use citations and careful wording? Or do you want citations and careful wording about something specific having to do with the topic of the OP? In either case, just read the comments from hexbear users all over this thread.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    You’re claiming that you argue from a valid point of citing your arguments, and presented zero citation. The person the replied to needed no citations for their argument because they presented ideas, not facts. You’re raging trying to tell people to cite things but you’re sitting in your tower without presenting citations. You’re a ragebait clown 🤡

    redtea,

    You said:

    You’re claiming that you argue from a valid point of citing your arguments, and presented zero citation. The person the replied to needed no citations for their argument because they presented ideas, not facts. You’re raging trying to tell people to cite things but you’re sitting in your tower without presenting citations. You’re a ragebait clown 🤡

    It’s unclear whether you’re deliberately misinterpreting InappropriateEmote or whether you simply don’t understand them. Either way, it seems sensible to quote the text that you’re replying to:

    When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of “always throwing walls of text at people.” When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we “only have simplistic takes.”

    This means that when Hexbear users present a longer argument with references, they get accused of writing walls of text. In response to this criticism, there is another approach: short and pithy responses.

    InappropriateEmote is unambiguously saying that in this example they went with option 2, a short and pithy response. They are not claiming to have provided a longer argument with references.

    This was said in response to a quip intended to shut down the discussion rather than deal with a critique:

    Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

    The alternative (dealing with the substance of the claim) would have required accepting all the other evidence that the US is both arms dealer and directly involved in running the Ukraine war and directing where it’s dealt arms go. Again as with yours, there was an attempt to decontextualize what a Hexbear user said so as to dismiss the overall argument without addressing it’s crucial features.

    It is entirely unclear what point you’re trying to make by distinguishing ideas from facts. Unless it’s a weird brag about being grounded in unfounded opinion rather than fact, which, if it is, is not the argument you think it is.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    🤡

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Damn, that’s a powerful argument.

    redtea, (edited )

    At least we know now. It doesn’t have to be this way. We will be here to explain how the world works whenever you’re ready to learn.

    WldFyre,

    But they’re from hexbear, that means they’re always right duh

    /s

    InappropriateEmote,

    No one ever said we are always right, and we can’t be, because our internal struggle sessions are well know. We weren’t even able to federate for 3 years due to incompatible code, and in that time, disagreed (to put it lightly) on things all the time in ways where both sides can’t be right. I realize it can be convenient for you to talk about people you’re trying to disparage as a monolith, but I assure you, no hexbear thinks hexbears are always right.

    But when it comes to actually knowing shit about geopolitics, and understanding realities beyond the narrative that has been crafted to justify the ruling class’ dominance and hegemony, it’s hard to get it wrong when you’re talking to propagandized liberals who eat up that narrative like good little unquestioning beneficiaries of empire. That much is true.

    AntiOutsideAktion,
    @AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

    If I were to understand history based entirely on two or three headlines in The Atlantic

    Blursty,
    @Blursty@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Who invaded Ukraine in 2014

    After whose coup d’etat?

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Ahhh let’s talk about those! The one in Russia last month was pretty cool. Sending Wagner to Belarus to mess with Poland, only for Poland to send 10,000 troops and see Wagner get shipped out of Belarus was pretty funny. Russia keeps trying the same playbook, and now it’s being met with equal force, so they’re pissed. Same reason the EU border states just expelled thousands of Russian citizens.

    They keep trying to stage coups using Russian citizens. The coup in Ukraine in 2014 was preceded by a border buildup of “special operation forces.” It also noteworthy how Russia has changed the lingo and now calls it “War in Ukraine.”

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Is it fun living in this fantasy world?

    Blursty,
    @Blursty@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Mate, ease up on the drugs. The real world is still going to be waiting for you when you come down.

    CanadaPlus, (edited )

    Russia does not have the resources for that. A reminder this isn’t a proxy war for them, even though it is for the West. Russia is there in person conventionally and is somehow losing to a minor Western ally.

    The Ukrainians aren’t going to run out of stuff within the next year for sure, and maybe not ever because even if the US gets bored Europe is highly invested. Russia has negligible productive capacity of it’s own, and is bound to have serious problems eventually, unless they convince China to help and China has so far been uninterested. They could theoretically win by population attrition, I guess, but nobody’s really talking about that yet. And, to do anything, they need political stability, after already having one mostly-failed coup.

    BettyWhiteInHD,

    deleted_by_author

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  • CanadaPlus,

    Nah. That was basically Cold War propaganda, partly spread by ex-Nazis covering their asses after losing to “subhumans”. Russia fought the same way every country did in it’s recent wars.

    Man I miss AskHistorians.

    brain_in_a_box,

    No, not at all; that’s a myth started by Nazi propagandists to explain why they were losing to the Soviets, and it was picked up by USA propagandists during the cold war.

    ZapataCadabra,

    Pretty much every assuming USians have about Russia comes from Nazi propaganda.

    CanadaPlus,

    Oh, and Ukraine is also populous. It has a quarter of Russia’s population, about, so human wave wouldn’t win anyway.

    TheAnonymouseJoker,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Pentagon said last year in a press briefing that Russia could keep up this war for 40 years at current rate. You sure USA and Europe can last even one year? Russia also has allies in China and India, in case West thought for even one moment about uniting.

    tastysnacks,

    Depends what you’re talking about. This war started in 2014 so its already been 9 years.

    CanadaPlus,

    Russia also has allies in China and India

    Press X to doubt.

    Pentagon said last year in a press briefing that Russia could keep up this war for 40 years at current rate.

    Could you link that? It goes against everything I’ve read and I can’t find it myself.

    TheAnonymouseJoker,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Russia also has allies in China and India

    Press X to doubt.

    I do not think you are capable of learning anything, if you seriously say things that are opposite of reality.

    CanadaPlus,

    Right back at you, although I assume you’re plenty capable at learning other things.

    AssortedBiscuits,
    @AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net avatar

    Press X to doubt.

    India ramping up trade in oil and gas with Russia while refusing to even offer the most milquetoast condemnation of Russia’s invasion on the world stage haven’t clued you in?

    CanadaPlus,

    Call me when they do more than not get involved.

    India and China are fair-weather friends to Russia. India is also an increasingly close fair-weather friend of the West. Both the West and India see themselves as adversaries with China.