McConnell on Ukraine proxy war: "We haven’t lost a single American in this war. Most of the money that we spend, is spent on replenishing weapons, so it’s actually employing people here."[paraphrased]

Mitch McConell says the quiet part out loud.

Exact full quote from CNN:

“People think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldn’t be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we haven’t lost a single American in this war,” McConnell said. “Most of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So it’s actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.”

cross-posted from: lemm.ee/post/4085063

mim,

Russia invades a neighbour who dares to attempt to have stronger ties to the west.

West supplies neighbour with weapons to defend itself.

Tankies on Lemmy: “oh no, Russia is being oppressed”

Dagwood222,

I thought ‘tankie’ came from a video game. Turns out it’s been around since the USSR decided to roll into Hungary.

Gsus4, (edited )
@Gsus4@feddit.nl avatar

Órban still has fond memories of that…he was 7 in 1956, he probably remembers.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Which is funny, since crushing the revolt was the only reason it took people like Orban so long to regain power.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Yup. Thankfully they were able to crush the revolt before the fascists were able to re-establish the Arrow Cross Party.

DivineChaos100,
@DivineChaos100@hexbear.net avatar

oh shit hexbearites are talking about hungary again, gotta ditch the thread lmao

MultigrainCerealista,

The Hungarian uprising was killing Jews in the street. It was anti-Semitic from the beginning and the “Jewish Bolshevik” idea from the Nazi era was a motivating factor with the fact several leaders of the Hungarian government were Jewish cited as a battle cry.

jta.org/…/1956-crises-decimated-two-communities

After the uprising, 200,000 Hungarian Jews fled the country fearing it signaled a return of the antisemitism of the recent Nazi-collaborationist regime of the 1940s.

Sending the tanks in to stop this was a good thing. It would have been better if the anti-Semitic uprising was stopped before the pogroms started.

Zoboomafoo,

Ok tankie

RickyRigatoni,
@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s amazing how much they support imperialism when it’s “their people” doing it.

Maoo,
@Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

Siri, what’s imperialism?

RickyRigatoni,
@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, you really should ask her what imperialism is if you don’t think what Russia and China are doing is imperialism.

Maoo,
@Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

Siri please help the red fash tankies keep telling me to read Lenin.

DankXiaobong,

Imperialism is when china and russia and the more china and russia the imperialister it is

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Read Settlers

gnuhaut,

That’s because you don’t understand what imperialism means. US/EU capital is looting and exploiting the former socialist block and controlling it through western capitalist media, NGOs, and military bases. That’s imperialism. The Russians preventing Nazis from doing ethnic cleansing along their border and demanding not to be threatened with a gun to the head is not imperialism.

mim,

Funny how living standards in the ex-soviet countries have improved considerably since joining the EU, but that has not been the case for the ones that chose to be kept under Russia’s sphere of influence. 🤔

Looks like the EU is really bad at looting, they should learn from Russia.

DivineChaos100,
@DivineChaos100@hexbear.net avatar

They didn’t improve at all. The rich are better off, thanks to mass privatization of public property. For the middle/working class, quality of life stagnated at best.

Source: I live in an ex-soviet country.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

living standards in the ex-soviet countries have improved considerably since joining the EU

Yeah the living standards sure did improve after one of the worst demographic disasters in that era. Easy for things to get better when you start from the bottom I mean come on do better.

mim,

So, why didn’t Belarus improve at the same rate as the Baltic countries?

They both started from the bottom, right?

Ram_The_Manparts,
@Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

So, why didn’t Belarus improve at the same rate as the Baltic countries?

If you think that the answer to this is simply “because Russia bad” you have the mind of a child.

mim,

Eastern European countries that opened to western trade and diplomatic relationships improved significantly.

Eastern European countries that became Russian puppets didn’t.

Explain that.

Ram_The_Manparts,
@Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

Babybrain

came_apart_at_Kmart,

imagine ignoring the absolutely ruthless, western led cannibalization of the former soviet union and pretending history’s baseline started AFTER the largest decline of living standards in global history.

human trafficking, prostitution, alcoholism, food/energy insecurity, diseases of despair all exploded when the west forced capitalism and privatization onto the former soviet union in the immediate aftermath. Gorbachev thought he was going to get some easy-going nordic social democracy, but instead the west carved up their public sector like a christmas ham. maybe you were too young, but in the 1980s the propaganda portrait the west had of russian women were all heavy-set, ugly babushkas. suddenly, after 1989, the mail order beautiful russian bride phenomenon exploded. they were fleeing the gutting of the public sector and the shattering of the social safety net, which made it near impossible to raise a family in the eastern bloc without becoming a sex worker.

the west sponsored every retrograde nationalist reactionary psycho to undermine any hint of democratic resistance to economic liberalization schemes and bombed the shit out of infrastructure (Yugoslavia) whenever they could get away with it. the west has the most blood on its hands for the aftermath of the USSR, but people like you want to ignore those early days and then claim credit for the “winners” the west propped up in the aftermath of all that chaos. like a killer who torched a town but kidnapped a few kids and now touts his heroic rescue of them. the most ignorant and disgusting take.

mim,

You seem to be ignoring the fact that after the fall of the USSR, Russia didn’t want their assets to be sold or leased to western companies (understandably), so they let corrupt officials take them for pennies of what they were actually worth. Those officials became the oligarchs.

Russians cannibalised Russia.

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

yes, capitalism is marked by class war, between the class who own things, and the class who labor. liberalizing the Soviet bloc destroyed the prospects of the working class.

came_apart_at_Kmart,

the word you are striving not to say is capitalism. capitalists did this to russians, using the playbook developed and advocated for by western institutions.

ThereRisesARedStar,

God you’re just… so fucking close to getting it.

What would have happened if instead of the Russian capitalists privatizing all the people’s assets the western capitalists did?

Do you think it wouldn’t just be western oligarchs cannibalizing Russia?

mim,

And yet, tankies still defend this corrupt capitalist state just because it’s not the US.

Nevermind political persecution, assassinations, repression of LGBT people, invasion of neighbouring countries, etc. As long as it’s not the US, it’s all good.

ThereRisesARedStar,

No, it isnt. We at hexbear say “the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the Soviet Union was the largest humanitarian disaster of the latter half of the twentieth century” and bemoan the loss for human rights(more notably for women, lgbt people, and ethnic minorities) caused by the destruction of the Eastern block.

What we say is that you have to look at the outcomes of weapon distribution by NATO to Ukraine.

Ukraine just wasted a lot of material on one last big push and they didn’t do squat. The Ukrainian state has exhausted its ability to conduct offensive operations, and attrition in both absolute quantity and in percentage has been on the Russian’s side since the second stage of the war, so what’s going to happen now is that Russia will slowly encroach on the rest of Ukraine until they meet their military and political objectives.

So, do we give them more weapons, make their losing war even bloodier for them and the Russians, or do we accept that they’ve lost, and stop giving the government more time to keep killing conscripts?

Maoo,
@Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

The Balts were immediately used as forward positions for NATO and were allowed to keep their state programs and industry. Belarus got the same treatment as Russia.

You should probably know the answer to your own snarky questions before you ask them.

mim,

So, what you’re saying is that the countries that sided with the West got a better deal than the ones that became Russian puppets?

PosadistInevitablity,
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

Two capitalist nations fucking over their subjects is not the own you think it is

Flaps,

When a country joins the western bloc, they join them.

When a country joins any other multinational pact, they’re puppets.

I’m not influenced by western propaganda

renownedballoonthief,

Have some compassion, some people just want to crank their knob to exploitative porn without questioning why so much of it comes from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, and Russia.

aaaaaaadjsf,
@aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net avatar

Thank you for calling this out. It’s fucking gross how that happens. If I speak about what should happen to “sexpats”, I’ll be in trouble. Big big trouble.

renownedballoonthief,
gnuhaut,

There was a massive dip in all those places in the 90s with shock therapy. A lot of people are still worse off in a lot of ways and angry. Hence AfD, Orban, PiS and all those other angry nationalists.

Also, if you want to be fair, you should compare for example Poland to west Germany. Polish workers toil for German capitalists, and yet, somehow, they’re getting exploited way more than the German workers. Less pay, worse services, worse infrastructure, less worker’s rights. That whole arrangement is super-exploitative. Meanwhile foreigners bought most of that country. Treated like a colony basically.

The Russians got fucked even worse than Poland in the 90s, which resulted in a backlash which Putin made himself the head of. What Russia is doing is self-preservation. Any state with the means to preserve it’s sovereignty from a hostile takeover would try to do so, it’s not just something an imperialist state would do. Hence Russia is not doing an imperialism here.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Hell, compare East Germany to the reich West Germany. West Germany’s economic conquest of East Germany was incredibly ruthless and brutal, and East Germany never recovered from having it’s entire economy pillaged and burned.

ThereRisesARedStar,

And east german lgbt rights and women’s rights lost half a century of progress during reunification.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Yeah. It’s still technically illegal to get an abortion in the reich afaik. It was really something finding out that the gdr had gender parity in most fields before the west crushed it, and that western germany had to give women a bunch of rights to try to manage to political turmoil.

ThereRisesARedStar,

Reading those east German men be like “yeah I prefer it now that women have to stay with me for economic reasons, before you had to be like, interesting and care about them or something” really drives it home in a different way too.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

That was physically painful when I first saw some of those quotes. We’ve just lost so much potential.

infuziSporg,
@infuziSporg@hexbear.net avatar

since joining the EU

I hope you understand how this is an incredibly cherry-picked range. It’s like saying “look how steadily the American economy grew from the period of 1930 to 1940”.

Many Eastern European countries in the EU are still being hollowed out and suffering massive brain drain. The model of “tributary state” accurately applies here.

RickyRigatoni,
@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml avatar

Are these nazis in the room with us right now?

ElChapoDeChapo,
@ElChapoDeChapo@hexbear.net avatar

I mean you’re here so, kinda yeah

Quimby,

no they’re not here. they’re over in ukraine putting up statues of Bandera and wearing nazi symbols all over their military uniforms. were you not listening, or…?

ThereRisesARedStar,

Don’t forget putting the OUN… er… ukrainian trident on that old monument.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

And the Blood and Soil flags that are very common.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

I mean, you’re not gonna like it, but;

CW: Like over a hundred fotos that all have some kind of Nazi imagery in them, except one where I think they mistook a patch for the 14th Waffen SS Grenadiers 1st Galacian patch because it has similar elements

imgur.com/a/8Oo74F9

They’ve been open and pretty frank about their goals. I can explain all the symbols and their history and significance for you if you’d like.

VentraSqwal,

I’m sorry to break it to you but are you aware of the Wagner group that has been fighting for Russia? They’re pretty Nazi as well and yet hexbear keeps cheering for Russia anyway, saying the only way to end the war is to have Ukraine give in to them. For some reason Ukraine has to be the bigger man, but Russia, the actual aggressor, who is also employing Nazi fighters, can’t?

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

1.) Killing Nazis is not a tit for tat thing. Everyone should kill all the Nazis they can.

2.) Most of us are not cheering for Russia. This is not a sports game. There is not a goodguy and a badguy. The only thing I want out of this war is for the killing to stop and NATO’s hegemonic power diminished. No one is going to “win” this. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead. Nazis are emboldened and proliferating throughout Eastern Europe. Vast amounts of weaponry have gone missing and will begin being used in terror attacks in the next few years. Much of Ukraine’s last remaining state industries and farmland have been sold off the multinational vultures. The massive infrastructure damage in Ukraine is never going to be repaired. You’re treating this like a movie with a hero and a villain where someone wins and someone loses. That’s not how geopolitics work. The idea that Russia is an “aggressor” shows both ignorance of history and a failure to understand the security concerns of modern states and how conflcit is conducted. So many people have this very naive model un view that the lines on the map are real and you can be sovereign when you don’t have nukes. There’s a studious refusal to engage with the reality that NATO routinely engages in hostile wars of aggression and that countries all over the world will defend themselves from that to the best of their ability, regardless of your concept of morality or rule of law. Russia is intensely aware of what NATO did to Libya, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Syria. They’re intensely aware of NATOs decades of sabotage and subversion, of death squads and assassins, of coups and coercion. And you can refuse to engage with that or understand it if you want. I can’t force you to acknowledge the world as it really is. But this ridiculous “oh Russia has Nazis so it” s okay that Nazis occupy positions of influence throughout Ukraine" thing is obnoxious. Round up all of Wagner and shoot them. I don’t care. Mercenaries are scum. I don’t care what happens to them. Nazis should be hunted down and killed regardless of where they are, not armed and emboldened.

VentraSqwal,

Your words don’t match your attitude. You guys constantly berate Ukraine and defend Russia, even when it has similar problems. The only actual solution you have is to have Ukraine give up and surrender sovereignty to Russia. The only place I agree with you is that all Nazis are bad.

And Russia is the one who attacked, that makes it the aggressor. Ukraine wasn’t even joining NATO until they made it seem more alluring, and even then their membership is still an open question, so none of that matters. And if NATO did attack Russia, then they would be the aggressor, and I would be arguing against them, because Russia would have the right to defend itself, just like Ukraine does. But it wasn’t. They just wanted territory. You guys also seem to just take Russian propaganda as truth, generally taking their reasons as good faith, claiming genocides against Russian speaking people’s (even though the President is one) just because they specified the official language or saying some Nazi terrorists are a reason to obliterate the country (even though Russia has some, too, as does the US. It doesn’t mean I want someone invading to stop them, destroying my house and shit). It would be like if some terrorists attacked the US and that was used as a reason to obliterate a country, or two. You claim you see the world as it really is, even though Russia didn’t have to attack and none of this had to happen. It reminds me of conservatives who are always telling people on the left to open their eyes and see how the world really is.

Quimby,

“And that’s all I have to say about that.” fedposting

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

capabara-tank I regret to inform you that you have failed your introduction to 21st century history class capabara-tank

Like just little things.

Do you know that the Russian Black Sea Fleet is based in Sevastopol? Did you know that it’s an incredibly important strategic asset? What do nation states do when an incredibly important strategic asset is threatened? Do they defend it?

Did you know Crimea has a 30 year long history of seeking more autonomy, or even independence, from Ukraine?

Do you know what the very first action of the coup Rada was?

Do you know what “encirclement” means?

I know Plato’s Allegory of the Cave gets used a lot when discussion the hegemonic power of western propaganda over western people, but come on bruv.

Do the words “Minsk II” mean anything to you?

Are you aware of the tariff agreements in place between Russia and Ukraine in 2013?

Do you know who Bandera was?

Do you know what the Russian Federation’s stated causus belli for the invasion is?

What do you know?

Bulma,

Eli5 that Pluto shit I toned out the Cave hard when I took a philosophy class

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/f231f7e0-b83c-443d-8413-f6fc36d7e036.jpeg

I found this funny and topical example.

Basically some dudes are tied up in a cave so they can only look forward. Behind them some other dude’s are making shadow puppets. The tied up dudes think the shadow puppets are the real world because they can’t look anywhere else and don’t think there is anything else. But then there’s something about if you’re skeptical you can escape the cave and see the real world outside.

Philosoraptor,
@Philosoraptor@hexbear.net avatar

The second part is important too: when someone escapes the cave and sees the outside world for the first time, it’s painful because things are so bright. After a while, the escapee’s eyes adjust, and they come to see how much better and more real the outside world is. They decide to go back and free their friends in the cave. But when they descend back down, their friends make fun of them because they can’t see very well in the dark anymore and so aren’t very good at talking about the shadows. Their friends think that they are just making up a big story about some magical “outside world” to cover for how bad they’ve gotten at talking about the shadows.

mim,

I don’t have the time for the classic tankie “reply with a wall of text and deflections”, I actually have a real job to attend to. But some main points.

Do you know that the Russian Black Sea Fleet is based in Sevastopol? Did you know that it’s an incredibly important strategic asset? What do nation states do when an incredibly important strategic asset is threatened? Do they defend it?

Do you also know that Russia took Sevastopol from Ukraine back in 2014?

Tell me, do you also support Israel’s claims on Palestinian territory?

Do you know what the Russian Federation’s stated causus belli for the invasion is?

Yes.

Do you know what the causis belli for the US’s invasion of Iraq was? Are you stupid enough to believe that one as well? Or does believing causus belli only applies to whatever country is not an ally of the US?

What do you know?

I know you should get a gold medal on mental gymnastics and double standards.

DivineChaos100,
@DivineChaos100@hexbear.net avatar

What you call “reply with a wall of text and deflections” is 90% of the time well informed and sourced discourse, you just dismiss it cause you can’t argue with it.

ShimmeringKoi,
@ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

It’s crazy how quick they turn into Westworld robots, you can show them the most airtight, well-sourced case to counter their empty vibes-based conjecture and they’ll just go “That doesn’t look like anything.”

Flyberius,
@Flyberius@hexbear.net avatar

I’ll make it easier for you

PIGPOOPBALLS

I actually have a real job to attend to.

Can’t be that important if you’ve got all this time lose arguments on the internet

Ram_The_Manparts,
@Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

I don’t have the time for the classic tankie “reply with a wall of text and deflections”, I actually have a real job to attend to. But some main points.

This whole “unlike you tAnKiEs I have a job” thing just makes you look insecure and childish.

You know that, right?

Flyberius,
@Flyberius@hexbear.net avatar

It really is the strangest appeal to authority I’ve ever seen.

Bulma,

My ex father in law would always harp that he was more intelligent than my mom (he wasn’t) cus he had more jobs than her

ElChapoDeChapo,
@ElChapoDeChapo@hexbear.net avatar
GarbageShoot,

reply with a wall of text

And here I thought that the classic tankie reply was low-effort trolling and shitposting. parenti-hands

AntiOutsideAktion,
@AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

Tell me, do you also support Israel’s claims on Palestinian territory?

To the degree the Palestinians have used their self determination to say they want to be Israel and not Palestine

You’re really bad at analogies. You shouldn’t lean on them to avoid direct investigation.

ConsciousLochNess,

You know you’re dealing with a pro-NATO bot when they say stupid boomer jokes like “well I have a job to go to” data-laughing

Hi bot! 👋

mim,

Hi first-world revolutionary LARPer. 👋

ConsciousLochNess,

Hello, World!

StalinwasaGryffindor,
silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

jokey one-liners: you have no arguments rage-cry

well-reasoned point: I’m not reading all that, I have a job smuglord

CrispyFern,
@CrispyFern@hexbear.net avatar

nonfalsofiable orthodoxy intensifies parenti-hands

Maoo,
@Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

I don’t have the time for the classic tankie “reply with a wall of text and deflections”

This is literally a deflection to avoid dealing with the (inconvenient) basic facts you should’ve learned before having any opinion on this topic in the first place.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Do you also know that Russia took Sevastopol from Ukraine back in 2014?

Yes? Because the Black Sea Fleet is station in Sevastopol and Sevastopol is a vital strategic resource? Are we speaking the same language?

Tell me, do you also support Israel’s claims on Palestinian territory?

Non-sequitor?

Do you know what the causis belli for the US’s invasion of Iraq was? Are you stupid enough to believe that one as well? Or does believing causus belli only applies to whatever country is not an ally of the US?

… Okay so you know that UA was shelling Donbass and killing people for years, and the Rada was very openly hostile to the Russian speaking Ukrainian minority, right?

I know you should get a gold medal on mental gymnastics and double standards.

Could I get a sticker instead?

Also that’s not a wall of text you dork it’s like 10 sentences.

mim,

Because the Black Sea Fleet is station in Sevastopol and Sevastopol is a vital strategic resource? Are we speaking the same language?

So if the US has a fleet statinoned in another contry’s territory, should they just be allowed to take it?

Non-sequitor?

What don’t you follow?

Do you also support US-backed countries to take territory as they see fit? Or does that only apply to countries you like?

Okay so you know that UA was shelling Donbass and killing people for years, and the Rada was very openly hostile to the Russian speaking Ukrainian minority, right?

A Russian-backed separatist group starts a conflict and Ukraine responds.

Does Ukraine not have the right to defend their territory?

Could I get a sticker instead?

You can get some crayons to munch on.

Bulma,

Did the American-backed separatist group count in your brain too or the us backed razing of the USSR

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

You’re a very foolish person.

Zoboomafoo,

Shit, if all you have to do is park a fleet at a region and it’s yours, I have been playing paradox games wrong this entire time

Redcat,

Does Ukraine not have the right to defend their territory?

Do eastern ukrainians have a right not to be ethnically cleansed?

Commiejones,
@Commiejones@hexbear.net avatar

Do eastern Ukrainians have a right to defend their own territory and invite guests to help?

EmptySlime,

Even some otherwise good regular leftists have absolute dogshit takes on Ukraine. It’s like they’re allergic to even being coincidentally on the same side as the US State Department that they start falling all over themselves to be like “Remember guys, US Bad,” and start like saying that we should be pushing Ukraine to give up territory to appease Russia so they don’t use nukes. When we already know because of Crimea that Putin will almost certainly just regroup and try again if they give him anything.

Gsus4, (edited )
@Gsus4@feddit.nl avatar

Yes, I couldn’t understand it, because to most NATO members, NATO is the backbone of their security, but I’ve realised that many lefties’ reaction to NATO is akin to atheists’ emotional-dogmatic view of religion: They’re ever suspicious, never forgive nor forget past crimes, they reject all redeeming qualities and twist themselves to oppose benefitting them at the axiom level.

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

OK so you’re siding with the state dept on Ukraine but when was the last time you agreed with usa foreign policy around the world? Why do you think they’re in any way acting on behalf of anyone in eastern Europe?

Klear,

And here it is, perfect example.

False,

Whataboutism

Jmdatcs,

So because the US has pulled a bunch of bullshit over the last several decades they shouldn’t get involved when there is a real evil to fight? That’s a boneheaded take. What if it was actual real Nazis? What if Nazis got ahold of a country in Europe and started invading and putting people into death camps? Should the US just say “I don’t know man, we’ve fucked up in the middle east, south America, and southeast Asia so much we’re just going to sit this out”?

Yes, western imperialism is bad. No, everyone opposed to western imperialism is not necessarily good.

Think of it as broken clock being right twice a day. Think of it however you need to. Russia needs to lose in Ukraine. And if that means the west gets a propaganda “win”, that sucks but just deal with it. Western countries getting egg on their faces isn’t worth letting Russia rape, murder, and steal.

EmptySlime,

I don’t think there’s been another time once in the twenty plus years that I’ve been concerned with politics have I agreed with the position of the state department. But to me that means that I for damn sure am not about to interrupt them when they’re finally for once in my life taking the morally correct action in funding the defense of Ukraine. I’ll save that for when they inevitably get back on their bullshit thanks.

mim,

I would say most leftists (specially the libertarian type), are not on the side of Russia on this.

Tankies have just been really loud with their mental gymnastics lately.

PosadistInevitablity,
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

You straight up butchered that straw man

He is in pieces

How could you do this

Ram_The_Manparts,
@Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

Tankies on Lemmy: “oh no, Russia is being oppressed”

Literally no one thinks this, but by all means, have fun in your fantasy land lol

iByteABit,

Tankies on Lemmy: “oh no, Russia is being oppressed”

Said literally no one here, besides you trying to frame communism as war loving imperialists.

Now that I’m speaking of war loving imperialists, what does that bring to mind?..

AntiOutsideAktion,
@AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

You’re commenting on an article explicitly saying the US isn’t sending weapons for the purpose of defending Ukraine…

AttackPanda,

I hope we can keep supporting Ukraine. This is one of the few times in history when the scenario is so clear cut good vs evil. The Ukrainians fought hard to get out from under the thumb of Russia and the Russians just couldn’t have that so they invaded. The support the world provides to Ukraine is support provided for all Democracies.

brain_in_a_box,

The Ukrainians fought hard to get out from under the thumb of Russia

What?

AttackPanda,

Euromaiden!?!??? Like a major defining moment in Ukrainian history!

brain_in_a_box,

The one where NATO backed coup overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine? That seems like the opposite of fighting to get out from under foreign thumb

FluffyPotato,

The one that happened because their leader was passing laws making him a dictator and violently putting down protesters leading to more protests causing him to flee. Also any support came after that was over, not before.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

I mean there’s a recording of Victoria Neuland talking about setting it up from months before but whatever.

FluffyPotato,

Ah yes, the same point 30 other have brought up as well even though what was said was who they would think the leader is going to be which they, to no ones surprise, said the leader of the opposition, ya know, the guy who would be in power if their system worked like it should. That’s like someone saying they like the guy as leader that got all the votes.

ToxicDivinity,
@ToxicDivinity@hexbear.net avatar

But the guy who actually got all the votes was yanukovich.

AntiOutsideAktion,
@AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

See, if he were a legitimate leader he would have let the west supplant him in a violent coup WITHOUT reacting to it. That makes it justified post hoc.

You have to let the nazis march. It’s the rules.

FluffyPotato,

So people in their country should never fight if their leader is working to surpress their rights and become a dictator. They just have to wait for elections that will never be fair again if they even happen. Also he did react to it by fleeing, Putin is not the leader of Ukraine, he has no business reacting to anything.

Putin did march his nazies into Ukraine after that if that’s what you mean.

brain_in_a_box,

Were you at the January 6th riots, per chance? Your sure have the same reasoning as them.

FluffyPotato,

Not in the US as I never been there. Also was Biden becoming the dictator of the US? Like if he was declaring protests illegal, giving cops legal rights to kill anyone who does protest and basically make himself the supreme ruler of the US then yea it would be justified.

brain_in_a_box,

The January 6 protesters certainly believed he was becoming a dictator. I guess the riots were justified.

FluffyPotato,

Thinking something is true =/= true

brain_in_a_box,

Indeed, you should think about that fact yourself.

FluffyPotato,

So are you saying protests are always unjustified because protestors could be wrong?

brain_in_a_box,

No

FluffyPotato,

OK then I’m going to stay with my point that the laws passed that triggered the Euromaidan were very protestable and January 6th in the US was a bunch of crazies that fell for propaganda due to poor US education. Also that protests are a good way to get rid of a wannabe dictator.

brain_in_a_box,

Yes, I’m aware that the liberal position is that couping democratic governments is acceptable if they personally agree with it, but unacceptable when other people do it.

FluffyPotato,

This is my last reply since I would need to flip my phone to hit the button and that’s way too much effort but this seems to have run it’s course anyways.

I’m pretty sure the liberal position would be that all violent protests are bad, no matter what. That’s why I was asking if that was your position so I could see if you were the rare lib that supports Russia’s war.

Also I don’t think a coup is when people drive a wannabe dictator out if their country though English isn’t my first language. And even if it is I absolutely support people exercising their right to protest and remove a leader trying to dismantle a democracy. I’m not sure what mental gymnastics you are trying to do to equate that to Jan 6th in the US but it makes you sound like a lib.

brain_in_a_box,

This is my last reply since I would need to flip my phone to hit the button and that’s way too much effort but this seems to have run it’s course anyways.

Good lord, this is the most “I’m totally not mad” sentence I’ve ever seen.

I’m pretty sure the liberal position would be that all violent protests are bad, no matter what.

It’s not, liberals are fine with violent protests when it’s against their enemies.

Also I don’t think a coup is when people drive a wannabe dictator out if their country though English isn’t my first language.

Yes, that absolutely is a coup.

And even if it is I absolutely support people exercising their right to protest and remove a leader trying to dismantle a democracy.

So you support the January 6th riots

AntiOutsideAktion,
@AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

I liked that part of the unalloyed good where your heroes locked a hundred ethnically unalloyed bad people in a building and burned them alive

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

I really don’t think a lot of the libs know that happened, or anything about the racial animosity of the right wing nationalist cough Nazi cough Galacians, or the ethnic makeup and goals of the coup Rada, or really much of anything about what’s happening.

BurgerPunk,
@BurgerPunk@hexbear.net avatar

Ukraine is Harry Skywalker and Russia is ebil Darth Voldemord. How much more clear could it be?

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

This is one of the few times in history when the scenario is so clear cut good vs evil.

I mean yeah, if you ignore like 200 years of history, then entire history and purpose of NATO, any understanding of the nature of geopolitics and power whatsoever, everything about the economics and politics of all the involved parties, the entire timeline of events between 2013 and now, and a number of other things, it would be clear cut.

Flinch,

Democracy is when you ban all left-leaning parties in your country and burn a hall full of trade unionists alive, and the more parties you ban and trade unionists you burn alive the more democratic you are. I don’t see what’s so hard for these tankies to get!!

Commiejones,
@Commiejones@hexbear.net avatar

They didn’t just ban the left-wing parties they also seized all their assets.

VentraSqwal,

Plenty of communist countries ban all but one party, and some even suppress trade unions, and you guys are still willing to call them democratic.

Flinch,

Interesting, do you have a source for this? Any particular countries you’d like to critique?

VentraSqwal,

China, Cuba, Vietnam all allow only one political party. As for suppressing trade unions, there’s the Jasic incident in China in 2018, where they tried to organize a union and strike and they fired all of them. Despite being Maoist in nature, they were detained, arrested, beaten, and disappeared by the police. And they generally have low rates of trade unions participation.

TheLepidopterists,
@TheLepidopterists@hexbear.net avatar

Yeah, clearcut good is when a government starts building monuments to Holocaust perpetrators, and banning minority languages including Yiddish, followed by a decade of bombing ethnic minorities in a border region.

wtf-am-i-reading

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Did they ban Yiddish, too? I hadn’t heard that, and it’s weird given that almost all Ukrainian Jews fled long ago to get away from, you know, Ukrainian Nazis.

TheLepidopterists,
@TheLepidopterists@hexbear.net avatar

The 2019 language law has carve outs for English, and national minority languages that are EU languages. Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish specifically don’t get exempted.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

yikes

It’s cool though there’s definitely no ethnic cleansing component to this war, nosiree.

Rom,
@Rom@hexbear.net avatar

Angry libs on lemmy downplay CNN poll showing majority of Americans oppose more US aid for Ukraine

dakar,
dakar avatar

The White House must be angry libs on lemmy then.

Milan,

They’re angry libs, yes.

vegai,

Imagine thinking that “liberal” is a slur.

EnderWi99in,

Good thing we listened to a few things Alexis Tocqueville had to say and we don't simply follow majority opinion on everything, because sometimes the majority is wrong.

timespace,

Imagine not helping your Allies when they’ve been invaded, unprovoked, and are fighting for everything.

postmeridiem,

Avengers theme plays

sab,
sab avatar

To be fair, we tend to take US military help to Europe for granted in retrospect. Both FDR and Churchill fought hard battles at home to ensure the opposition to Nazi Germany, and at the time it is far from obvious that they would succeed. There's also an element of luck to the fact that we had FDR and Churchill at the helm of these countries in these years - weaker leaders would have crumbled like France.

US military involvement in the postwar era has been a fucking mess, but we (Europeans) are eternally grateful for this - far from obvious - determination to help your allies when they're being invaded.

Post script since there's a bunch of Russian shills in this thread: We're grateful for the efforts of the Red Army as well. The fact that Stalin was happy to cooperate with Hitler all the way until the invasion of the Soviet Union, combined with a common distaste for Soviet postwar policies in many liberated areas, however makes our appreciation of the Soviet political leadership at the time a bit more strained. Soviet military tactics were also inefficient and caused unnecessary suffering and losses within the Red Army - history does repeat itself.

JuryNullification,

Heckin wholesome democracy, ignoring the will of the people to keep doing what you wanted anyway, after doing that for decades in Afghanistan and Iraq

barrbaric,

At a 2008 summit, NATO stated that it would attempt to expand to include Georgia and Ukraine, despite Russia having stated that NATO membership for those countries was a red line for them. Georgia was immediately invaded by Russia in response. Imo this makes it clear that NATO membership for either of those countries was so unacceptable that Russia would rather invade.

If we assume that Russia (and Putin in particular) is acting violently and irrationally like a wild animal, why did NATO continue to agitate Russia when the only possible outcome would be violence? Surely a neutral or even Russia-aligned Ukraine would be preferable to a war-torn Ukraine? This is proof that the US and NATO don’t care about the average person actually living in Ukraine, and indeed don’t care about the Ukrainian state beyond it being a useful (and profitable) proxy against a geo-political rival.

To be clear, I’m not excusing Russia here, but geo-politics aren’t about what’s “fair” or “right”, and if they were, the US would be a global pariah.

Alto,
Alto avatar

"How dare ex soviet nations try to ensure their own protection after Russia showed multiple times they like to invade ex soviet nations!"

boredtortoise,

I find in all Russia’s statements kind of ridiculous that it would have a say in how other sovereign countries handle their safety. Ukraine and Georgia have their own decisions to make

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

you do know there’s been an ongoing civil war in Ukraine since 2013 and that fascists have been genociding Russian speakers in the independent republics that have been trying to split off from Ukraine in that time, right? and you know that Ukraine violated multiple peace treaties in the process of doing so?

boredtortoise,

And we know that the separatist fascists are Russian plants. The future will tell us how much there’s a real independence movement instead in the areas.

Nevertheless, conquering and genociding whole Ukraine is not approvable

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

: |

That is certainly a take.

Do you know what the very first action of the coup rada was?

MoreAmphibians,

I actually do not, tell me.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

The very first thing the Rada did when they were installed after the coup was ban the use of the Russian language in all official capacities. The country had been de-facto multilingual up until that point, though legally you were supposed to use Ukrainian. Give the ethnic and regional nature of the coup, ie Galacians vs everyone out East, it sent a pretty strong message which was received and understood in Donbas.

MoreAmphibians,

I didn’t realize that was the very first act of the Rada. I was thinking it was appointing Natalie Jaresko as finance minster. She was an American who became a Ukrainian citizen the same day she was appointed as finance minister. That happened a lot later than I thought though.

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

the idea that no one can think for themselves and must all be plants, shills, or dupes because they don’t support your worldview is just plain racist. those damn asiastics, how could they possibly want to live their own lives and be free from shelling by a coup government that’s trying to annihilate them – it must be plants.

boredtortoise, (edited )

Yes. We don’t need entertain such ideas from who have them

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

engage with people as people and acknowledge that they very frequently have needs, wants, and desires that cut against your myopic worldview.

boredtortoise,

Exactly, that’s what I’m saying

(*Some people’s myopic worldview)

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

should I take this to mean you recant your earlier statement about the Ukranian separatists being plants?

boredtortoise,

We shouldn’t entertain myopic worldviews like everyone is a plant even though we know of some

We can assume good out of most and be critical of bullshit. Also helpful advice for avoiding misunderstandings :)

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

I’ll take that as a no. expecting liberals to refrain from dehumanizing people is just too much, I guess.

boredtortoise,

Check my edit. It seems you are misunderstanding or assuming something others can’t know about

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

And we know that the separatist fascists are Russian plants.

this you?

boredtortoise,

engage with people as people and acknowledge that they very frequently have needs, wants, and desires that cut against your myopic worldview.

I’ll take that as a no. expecting liberals to refrain from dehumanizing people is just too much, I guess.

This you?

silent_water,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

yeah, I suggested you do that and got no response. I stand by it.

boredtortoise,

Sure! That kind of “rules for thee…” is not my type of way to live so we can leave this repertoire here

Maoo,
@Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

Those lifelong Ukrainian trade unionists locked in their union hall and set on fire? Yeah, just fascust Russian plants.

How did I arrive at such a smart and correct thought? I get that question a lot. Listen, tankie

aaaaaaadjsf,
@aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net avatar

Ukraine and Georgia have their own decisions to make

Then “the west” should let them make their own decisions instead of instigating coups everytime they decide against western interests.

boredtortoise,

Of course, in the most simplified form. But I take it you maybe don’t mean Monaco or Uruguay or Botswana etc.

aaaaaaadjsf,
@aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net avatar

Yes I mean “the west” in the geopolitical term, not the geographical term. I think it’s the one that gets the point across the clearest. I could also use the term imperial core or imperial triad, but I’m not sure if many would understand it.

boredtortoise,

Yeah I get it. It somewhat scratches off Botswana.

Imperial core or triad is an interesting and new take yes… Could be USA+Russia+China. Isn’t that more than “the west”. Some can’t decide if Russia is west or not.

I see some applying that term to US and changing the rest between anyone maintaining neutral relations with them. Yeah probably not an accurate idea.

aaaaaaadjsf,
@aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net avatar

The imperial triad is actually an old term, coined by Samir Amin I think, it refers to the co operation between the USA, Europe and Japan. Hence the usage of triad. And imperial because they are the old school imperial and colonial powers.

This is why I prefer using “the west”, because people generally know what I’m talking about. As illustrated by your comment assuming the imperial triad could refer to USA + China + Russia, instead of the actual definition.

boredtortoise,

Yeah sounds good for it’s time. It seems both are becoming outdated to tell the big picture.

GarbageShoot,

Was West Germany an imperial state?

barrbaric,

It’s not pretty but this is how the world works. If a man is holding a gun to your head, and says he’ll kill you if you don’t give him your wallet, do you hold onto the wallet out of principle because robbery is immoral?

Gsus4,
@Gsus4@feddit.nl avatar

lol, thug ethics. AKA offensive realist geopolitics. The great do what they want and the small accept their fate.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Jesus christ bro Realpolitik is all there is and all there has ever been. When you live on a planet where a bunch of gerotocratic psychopaths could push the big red button at any time you don’t play games. You know America is the baddies, right?

Maoo,
@Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

There is no ethics between capitalist states, there are only stratagems for how to exploit everyone else and not get exploited yourself.

Rhetoric about liberal world orders and rules and ethics are just propaganda to keep their own people complacent, like providing indulgences to themselves. They are wildly inconsistent and the self-named “good guys” carry out the absolute worst violence.

sol,

The man with the gun to his head doesn’t have much of a choice if he wants to live. You, though, have a choice between criticising and defending the man with the gun, and you’re choosing to defend him.

Frank,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Bruv you’re not this dense. NATO, an alliance constructed for the express purpose of destroying Russia, which did not disband when the USSR was destroyed, which continued to advance towards and encircle Russia for decades after the fall of the USSR, which refused the RF’s attempts to join the alliance, which has engaged in numerous illegal wars of aggression, is the man holding the gun and I swear to god just because you were born there that does not make them the good guys.

timespace,

Ohhhh, I get hexbear now.

Wow, what an amazingly terrible worldview.

“I told you I was going to rob you if you tried to defend yourself, it’s your fault.”

Gsus4, (edited )
@Gsus4@feddit.nl avatar

That’s the genesis of the word “tankie”, much misused today: they say they are communist, but then advocate for the law of the strongest and can’t conceive of an alliance that isn’t more than vassalage and sending in the “tanks” against their allies to ensure they don’t fall out of line. That’s why everyone ran away from the Warsaw Pact when it ended whereas NATO endured.

boredtortoise,

It’s actually appalling how much seething hate they have towards communists

boredtortoise,

Alone, you do what you do to stay alive.

That’s why the world and people need its alliances, unities and consequences for harmful actions. The world doesn’t work by giving up to the worst offender.

Russia is holding a gun to Ukraine’s head and saying it’ll both kill and take everything.