worldnews

This magazine is from a federated server and may be incomplete. Browse more on the original instance.

BarrelAgedBoredom, in International Chess Federation (FIDE) to ban and punish transgender players

So the argument about physical capabilities used to ban trans women from sports was bullshit and it was all actually transphobia?! Color me shocked

stochasticity,
blanketswithsmallpox, (edited )
blanketswithsmallpox avatar

Yeah, non-trans women don't enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren't born men in physically competitive sport lol.

It doesn't take years long studies to understand a woman who transitioned well into or after puberty is still built more physiologically man than women. We will still need data about those who transitioned early and before onset. When a man transitions into being a woman then wipes the floor with every one of her peers, there's something wrong.

You either need mixed gender sport. Male only, and female only. The regulations regarding each will have to be arbitrarily chosen until a good spot is found.

Mental sports that take near zero physical strength should have zero separations between the genders though.

It was great when women started wiping the floor with men at Shooting lol.

It's not so great when, well, Bill Burr says it funnier lol: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28

Edit: Since people want sauce wars...

Trans athletes retaining advantages even after a year or HRT.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764 - Jan. 5, 2021

Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ - 2022 Aug; 19

When a male athlete transitions to female, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, which governs college sports, requires a year of hormone-suppressing therapy to bring down testosterone levels. The N.C.A.A. put this in place to diminish the inherent biological advantage held by those born male.

Ms. Thomas followed this regimen.

But peer reviewed studies show that even after testosterone suppression, top trans women retain a substantial edge when racing against top biological women...

Testosterone levels are crucial but do not invariably predict performance in every sport.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html

Renee Richards interview...

“I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me,” she said in an interview. “I’ve reconsidered my opinion.”

https://slate.com/culture/2012/10/jewish-jocks-and-renee-richards-the-life-of-the-transsexual-tennis-legend.html

The council said they ultimately decided to prioritize "fairness and the integrity" of the female competition over inclusion.

The World Athletics Council plans to form a working group to consider the issue of transgender inclusion over the next year. The committee will speak with transgender athletes to seek their perspective, review research on the matter and submit recommendations to the council.

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/24/1165795462/transgender-track-and-field-athletes-cant-compete-in-womens-international-events

However, we do have evidence - we have 13 studies that show significant retained advantage. We have a number of other studies of males with lower testosterone levels with prostate cancer, we know what happens with training, and so I think collectively the picture is quite strong to suggest that advantages are retained.
So I would be quite confident at this point that a policy that regulates women's sport by excluding male advantage, which includes trans women, is the evidence-based one.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/61346517 - 11 May 2022

In this study, we confirmed that use of gender affirming hormones are associated with changes in athletic performance and demonstrated that the pretreatment differences between transgender and cis gender women persist beyond the 12 month time requirement currently being proposed for athletic competition by the World Athletics and the IOC.10 This study suggests that more than 12 months of testosterone suppression may be needed to ensure that transgender women do not have an unfair competitive advantage when participating in elite level athletic competition.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577 - May 17, 2021

BarrelAgedBoredom,

Responded to a comment above yours with sources etc. There’s no good reason to exclude trans athletes from sports. Benefits diminish to a negligible point after ~2 years of hormone therapy. I do agree with you that the chess thing is ridiculous though

blanketswithsmallpox,
blanketswithsmallpox avatar

Thanks for the update.

I've also went and provided numerous and a variety of sources, direct studies, and reputable news sites disagreeing with the nearly decade old science the ALWAYS RIGHTEOUS OLYMPIC COMMITTEE based their decision on from an apparently single cherrypicked study in 2015?

I'd agree it looks like a 2 year wait requirement is a much better factor than the current single year though. Until then though, it needs changed. Then we will need more refuting the current I've linked above which shows pretty handily across the board that MtF athletes retain advantages well after a year and longer.

OmniDeficient,
@OmniDeficient@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Yeah, non-trans women don’t enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren’t born men in physically competitive sport lol.

The way you start your post is very telling. You’d have been better off leaving out the first two paragraphs.

It doesn’t take years long studies to understand a woman who transitioned well into or after puberty is still built more physiologically man than women.

Appeal to common sense. Also, why default to exclusion/discrimination rather than starting from a point of inclusion and make adjustments from there?

When a man transitions into being a woman then wipes the floor with every one of her peers, there’s something wrong.

That is not something that has been shown to happen to any significant degree. Seems like another appeal to common sense. Are trans women not allowed to win?

I’m sure you’re just a concerned citizen who wants what’s best for all involved. 🙄

blanketswithsmallpox, (edited )
blanketswithsmallpox avatar

OmniDeficient

Common Sense Fallacy... concerned citizen...

So are you going to talk about the numerous sauce or????

Right, you can't. Fallacy fallacy. I'm poking fun at the issue like numerous others have had. So the entire argument is wrong... despite....

Appeal to common sense fallacy!... Yet it's where almost all scientific studies come from lol. Also, just because something is a fallacy doesn't mean the logic isn't true lol. Black or white fallacy!

It's only a fallacy if it isn't true mate.

This isn't rhetorical roulette. The simple fact is that you can't refute the studies, you can't refute the sources, so you refuse to change your position. We literally hang a Progress Pride flag off our porch. Like the other person below, you're doing way more harm than good to trans rights.

Either get with the times and help, or stop trolling and ruining the perception of trans folk online by refusing reality. The current rules need to be changed. Top athletes have changed their position ex posto facto realizing how much of an advantage they had within those 2 years after transitioning for decades. Science is showing that people retain advantages after for even longer than 1-2 years. At the top levels of Sport, advantages as small as 1% is the different between even qualifying and medaling.

It's an issue. It's going to take time to resolve. No, swinging the pendulum too far the other direction isn't good, it ruins arguments. Yes, you're human just like those trolls, it doesn't mean you should be falling for the same stick your fingers in your ears obstinance,

Blakerboy777,
Blakerboy777 avatar

@blanketswithsmallpox

@iridaniotter @BarrelAgedBoredom

Yeah, non-trans women don't enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren't born men in physically competitive sport

Some sports just have totally dominant competitors. I don't think all the men who lost to Michael Phelps enjoyed losing to him because they didn't get to be born complete genetic freaks that look like they were engineered in a lab to win at swimming. In many women's sports, the top (cis) competitors tend to have really beneficial genetics, including really high levels of testosterone compared to average. Losing to someone because their genetics help them be faster/stronger/taller is just how it goes in competitive sports. Losing to a trans woman is no different than losing to a cis woman who hit the genetic lottery.

blanketswithsmallpox,
blanketswithsmallpox avatar

Thanks for the heads up. I've provided lots of sauce now too and will continue editing as I pull them up almost in order on Google lol.

KevonLooney,

Well… no. There are maybe 50 women total who could play in the NFL, mostly as kickers. In basketball, women use a smaller ball because their hands are just smaller. Someone who’s FTM is probably not going to be able to compete.

There are enduring advantages from living most of your life pumped with testosterone. But there’s so few top athletes who transition MTF in their prime, it’s not a big problem. Just look at Caitlyn Jenner. She could still beat most women (and men) at a track meet.

BarrelAgedBoredom,

Just gonna paste an old comment I made about trans athletes. TL;DR: athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT. There’s no good reason to exclude trans people from elite sports. Athletes already undergo testing to make sure their hormones levels are within pre-determined limits.

British Journal of Sports Medicine states 2 years after receiving gender affirming hormones, athletic advantages disappeared with an exception to running, in which trans- women had 9% faster lap times. Trans-men were on par with their biological male counterparts after just 1 year of hormone therapy.

Medscape has an interview with Joanna Harper, and advisor to the I0C on gender and sports about this very topic. In the interview she mentions a study out of Brazil that indicates a further decrease in strength in trans-women (MtF) athletes after 36 months, further diminishing any potential physiological advantage in these athletes.

There’s also something to be said about who these arguments are targeting. There are very few elite trans athletes and they already have to conform to strict guidelines on blood hormone levels and other doping tactics, just like everyone else at that level. The arguments are largely against high schoolers (children) who just want to participate in something. No one is taking puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones just to take a trophy home in high school. It’s a ridiculous argument through and through. A thinly veiled attempt to further marginalize and discriminate against a vulnerable population

ZombieTheZombieCat,

athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT

This is what I keep thinking whenever I hear about this “debate.” But I guess if the bigots admitted they know how hormones work, then they wouldn’t have an outlet for their transphobia.

darq,
darq avatar

It's incredible how a good number of transphobic people just either do not know, or cannot admit, what hormones do.

KevonLooney, (edited )

I’m sure muscle diminishes rapidly after MTF transition, but humans are just very good at losing muscle. Height and hand size are not things that go away after transition. Basketball is obviously one of the sports where MTF people have a massive advantage, although I don’t know of any studies on it. It depends massively on the sport.

Of course in professional leagues everyone is genetically unique. Saying “no this particular genetically unique person is unfair” is a bit weird.

iridaniotter,
@iridaniotter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

When you start talking about height and hand size, I think you’re getting lost in the sauce. Basketball already favors abnormally tall people anyway, but no one is trying to ban Yao Ming from the sport for being 229 cm (7’6").

BarrelAgedBoredom,

Beat me to the punch. This has been a settled issue for years, the only reason to hammer on about how trans people shouldn’t be in sports is either prejudice or ignorance. And having a several comment exchange where sources are already cited kinda narrows that down

CoderKat,

Yeah. Pretty much all the transphobic arguments could apply to most top athletes.

“Yao Ming is stealing sports from natural, normal height men!”

“Michael Phelps has an unfair advantage because he has unnatural lungs and bone structure!”

“It’s not fair to normal men that they have to compete against Mike Tyson. Would you want your son to have to fight against that?”

The reality is that the top athletes will always be physical outliers. That doesn’t mean more average folks need to be excluded from sports nor that birth gender necessarily gives you an unfair advantage compared to the top athletes.

barsoap,

Have you seen Michael Phelp’s hands. The man is an absolute genetic freak with multiple advantages, both in external build and internally (e.g. lactose buildup), there’s no way anyone with average genetics can compete no matter how much they train.

And middle of the road athletes competing in the men’s leagues don’t become top athletes in the woman’s league after transitioning, btw. They become middle of the road. Might there be some slight advantage? Dunno, not sure, might be, but it also doesn’t matter because noone the fuck is willing to incur gender dysphoria to win a fucking title. Athletes are nuts but not that nuts.

CaptainAniki,

deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • darq,
    darq avatar

    Except they haven't. There are a small handful of examples, that people both greatly exaggerate, and repeat over and over again. Trans people have been allowed to compete for many years prior, and have not overrun women's sports.

    Simple math is that even being a small minority, trans people will, occasionally, win things. Even if there are zero competitive advantages to being a transgender woman, some trans women are gonna excel. Finding a handful of examples of trans people being good at sports isn't actually proof of advantage.

    barsoap,

    200-yard freestyle race at the Ivy League women’s swimming

    Is the type of race that can be totally dominated by up and coming Olympic athletes. Regional/institutional races tend to have quite low records until someone top-tier happens, by chance, to participate in them in the course of their career.

    women’s indoor 1,500 meter long distance running event for ages 50-54.

    My sides. A senior event. At that age the only one you’re competing against is yourself.

    The Canadian Powerlifting Union announced a gender self-identification policy earlier this year that allowed athletes to participate in women’s competitions on the basis of self-declared gender alone.

    Yeah that’s bullshit there’s a reason the rules set by all other organisations involve something along the lines of a minimum of two years on HRT. Noone at all anywhere is claming that the act of identifying as a woman, alone, reduces muscle mass.

    CaptainAniki,

    deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • barsoap,

    In the elite men’s crit at the Loughborough Cycling Festival last May, she finished 43rd out of 45. Her final men’s race was the Welsh National Championship in September. Bridges finished second to last.

    Previously, she set national records in the junior male category.

    Nice of you to provide your own counter-evidence. There we have it, a top athlete in the men’s category, slumping to “does she even qualify?” in the men’s ratings, but ranking top in the woman’s category – because she was and still is a stellar athlete.

    iridaniotter,
    @iridaniotter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    The issue of transgender athletes was basically resolved several years ago when the IOC decided on two years of feminizing hormones before transgender women could compete in the female category. But due to the re-emergence of the anti-queer culture war, sports federations are re-litigating the issue and throwing science out the door.

    blanketswithsmallpox, (edited )
    blanketswithsmallpox avatar

    Science completely disagrees in so many studies. Let alone the personal opinions of trans athletes in the world themselves lol.

    Like you two, I've provided sauce above. Most of it far more recent than several years ago as if pointing to a single study refutes any other lol.

    Edit: It sounds like you're referencing old studies. And the Olympic Committee isn't exactly known for being on top of science or neutral lol. It's nearly decade old science in a field that still needs a lot of data.

    In 2015, IOC invited Harper to attend its Consensus Meeting on Sex Reassignment and Hyperandrogenism held in Lausanne, Switzerland. After 3 days, the panel of scientists and physicians converged on revised rules for transgender competitors, including at least 1 year of hormone replacement therapy for female competitors, rather than the 2 years previously required. That change was a nod to Harper's personal transition experience and to research published in 2004 in the European Journal of Endocrinology showing that the testosterone levels—and therefore performance—of 19 transgender women stabilized after 12 months of hormone therapy.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including

    More news showing it's unfair. Just go see my original.

    https://www.npr.org/2023/03/24/1165795462/transgender-track-and-field-athletes-cant-compete-in-womens-international-events

    iridaniotter,
    @iridaniotter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Begone, transphobe.

    blanketswithsmallpox,
    blanketswithsmallpox avatar

    iridaniotter

    Begone, transphobe.

    Sounds more like you're a closed minded bigot who has already made up their mind despite being shown evidence to the contrary.

    It's not a very becoming look for someone who presumably wants progress for trans folk. You can't just stuff your head in the sand the moment science begins to sway a different direction. It's not how science or reality works. It's not Adam Savage's most well known catchphrase.

    These are important discussions and you're literally harming trans people by acting this petulant and childish. Quit with the persecution act and show your sources. This ain't Truth Social lmfao.

    TheMage,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • Trainguyrom,

    Yeaaaaah no. Gender, just like sexual preference is a spectrum and people can fall anywhere on that spectrum

    TheMage,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • darq,
    darq avatar

    So even if we knew, with near certainty, that a child would be helped by gender-affirming care, you maintain "no exceptions". Because forcing 99 trans people through an undesired puberty is better for you than 1 cisgender person having a delayed puberty. Because 99 miserable trans people is worth saving 1 cis person from even mild discomfort.

    You aren't a doctor, and more importantly, you aren't their doctor. Keep your nose out of other people's healthcare, it is none of your business.

    TheMage,

    Define gender affirming care, please. Does it involve a scalpel? If so - sorry, thats sickening and should be illegal. Must be 18 and have given full consent. Doesnt matter what some gender doctor says either - as if they arent on the payroll here too? C’mon.

    darq,
    darq avatar

    Generally no. Only in rare cases is any surgery done as a part of gender-affirming care for under-18s.

    During puberty, it's just puberty blockers to delay as long as possible and gain more time for therapy. These are a conservative treatment, the absolute minimum intervention that allows the child the opportunity to be assessed further without putting them through unnecessary distress.

    Between 14-16, HRT may be started if everyone, including mental health professionals, are sure that this is what is right for the patient.

    Surgery is a minimum of two years after starting HRT. So the vast majority of those procedures will be done on patients over the age of 18. And the patient will have had to maintain their transgender identity for a solid two years, while under the effects of HRT and probably living as their gender full time. In the rare case that a patient somehow begins to transition mistakenly, they have a minimum of two years, watching their body gradually change, to bail out.

    After all those checks and balances, it's really no surprise that transition regret is very rare.

    as if they arent on the payroll here too? C’mon.

    I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to wild conspiracy theories that the entire medical profession, including basically every major medical body around the world, are all colluding on the subject of transgender health and taking enormous reputational risk, to forcibly "trans" a tiny handful of people.

    There is simply not even close to enough money in it.

    Trainguyrom,

    No “gender” stuff until they are 18 years old, no exceptions.

    Yeah this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding and probably an unwillingness to try to understand. As a cis-gender individuals you and I can’t know what it’s like to be trans, but we can listen to those who do know and try to understand to the best of our abilities. You clearly don’t wish to, but I have listened and I try to understand because I wish to be a decent human being.

    My friends and family who are trans have said they knew from very young ages that they are not the gender they may have been biologically born as.

    Also once you know you are trans one of the first steps is to take medications that prevent puberty from occuring which allows a much easier and cleaner transition later in life as well as allowing them to present as the gender they wish to present as. Preventing access to this kind of medical care until they are 18 is severely detrimental.

    Gender affirming medical care is critical because the suicide rates of trans people who are not able to transition are incredibly high and rates of regret for those who are able to receive transition surgery is so shocking close to zero.

    TL;DR you’re wrong and an asshole for choosing not to learn otherwise

    TheMage,

    Wow - finishes up with the usual insults. Relax, bruh. What exactly is “gender affirming care” anyways? Cutting genitals off of young boys/girls who might be simply confused or following the latest trend? They cant vote, drive after 9pm, buy a gun, get a tattoo, etc. until they are 18 but you and your kind are fine with hacking them up much younger than that. Pretty sick, sorry.

    Trainguyrom,

    What exactly is “gender affirming care” anyways?

    For minors most commonly it is to delay puberty and I believe in some cass may also involve hormone replacement therapy (HRT), but the most inportant part is combining the medical treatment with psychological counseling and treatment to help with the transition as well. It’s not easy being born with the wrong biological gender

    Cutting genitals off of young boys/girls

    The only people cutting off the genitals of young boys are people who insist on and continue to encourage circumcision. Female genital mutilation is thankfully continuing to be an increasingly rare practice.

    you and your kind are fine with hacking them up much younger than that.

    Who is “my kind” exactly and when did I say I’m “fine with hacking them up”?

    What I actually support is compassionate individualized care appropriate for the individual based on the ongoing best practices established by the industry. I am not a medical expert, nor do I work in medicine, however those that are experts and have extensive experience and research in these areas have already established the significant mental health benefits of access to age- and developement-appropriate gender affirming care to all who need it.

    Honestly the only thing I need to tell which side of history I want to be on is to see how happy people are once they begin treatment and begin presenting as who they really are. There is a glow of happiness in every trans person I’ve seen after beginning HRT that was simply not present beforehand. You have to truly be an asshole to want to take that away from people.

    So yes, I think you’re an asshole based on the opinions you’ve stated, and I hope you can learn to have some compassion for your fellow human. You might even make some friends along the way

    TheMage,

    Plenty of friends as is, thanks. This all sounds good on paper until you read about horror stories and how quote a few people that fell for this regret it, big time. This gender “thing” has exploded over the last 4-5 years. Are you really certain that there isnt a LOT of “hey, me too” going on with this? There are just magically all these gender-confused people suddenly? A lot of people are having trouble buying into that idea. We all know that there are legit cases of true hermies and other statistical outliers. But this gender thing is dominating like everything now. Its the 2020’s version of a counter culture. Homo-sexuality was mostly accepted, so now people have to move onto the “next thing”, it seems since being gay isnt controversial enough.

    As for compassionate care - yeah, fine. But to me, that should start with why they feel the way they do. How did a boy feel as if hes a girl? Same for the opposite. lets get to the root cause of this which to me is what needs to be addressed & managed. Id rather see these people helped to regain their biological identity so they can live a normal life. That seems more compassionate to me.

    darq,
    darq avatar

    This all sounds good on paper until you read about horror stories and how quote a few people that fell for this regret it, big time.

    That's called cherry-picking.

    This gender “thing” has exploded over the last 4-5 years. Are you really certain that there isnt a LOT of “hey, me too” going on with this? There are just magically all these gender-confused people suddenly?

    Yes there is, but that's not a bad thing.

    Part of the apparent increase in the number of transgender people is simply that people are more open about being transgender, rather than hiding it. And because being transgender is being made into a political issue by bigots, trans people are more visible. Previously trans people would simply get on with their transition, and live their lives unaccosted.

    But secondly with an increase in visibility, a lot of people are realising, "Wait, other people feel the same way as I do?" These people were always transgender, they have just been given the words to understand and describe their experiences, and are thus coming to terms with being transgender, and coming out. It's not that there are more people with gender issues, it's that more people who have always had gender issues are realising precisely what those issues actually are.

    But this gender thing is dominating like everything now.

    That is because conservatives refuse to leave trans people alone. If people leave trans people to just get their healthcare and get on with their lives, and give them the same respect everyone else gets in society, you'll quickly find that the "issue" disappears.

    Homo-sexuality was mostly accepted, so now people have to move onto the “next thing”, it seems since being gay isnt controversial enough.

    You are SO CLOSE to getting it.

    You are dead right, homosexuality has become more accepted, and less controversial.

    So conservative politicians have had to move onto a different minority to stir up fear and outrage about. That is why you are suddenly hearing about transgender people so much.

    As for compassionate care - yeah, fine. But to me, that should start with why they feel the way they do. How did a boy feel as if hes a girl? Same for the opposite. lets get to the root cause of this which to me is what needs to be addressed & managed.

    Why do you think that that isn't what has happened?

    Id rather see these people helped to regain their biological identity so they can live a normal life. That seems more compassionate to me.

    Well what you would "rather" has zero relevance to what actually works, and what is true.

    TheMage,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • darq,
    darq avatar

    Still seems like a fad to me.

    Gender diverse people have existed throughout human history, in cultures around the world. the gender binary is more of a "fad" than transgender people.

    You’re making it seem far more normal and common than it is.

    Because ultimately, it is a normal part of the human experience. Some small percentage of people are transgender.

    There should be as much or more effort put into finding out why they feel this way and how to help them get back on track.

    There is. The leading theory is that they are, mentally, their gender.

    We know that many of these kids are under massive pressure socially and the trans thing gives them a cause.

    Absolutely not. This is COMPLETELY divorced from reality.

    The social pressure to not be transgender is MASSIVE. Coming out as trans WILL lose you friends, and may lose you family as well. That is just a simple truth that transgender people accept when we come out. Not that we may lose friends, but that it is basically a certainty. We risk getting kicked out of our homes. We face discrimination in employment, healthcare, and housing. And the media stirs up false outrage about us constantly, out lives are politicised.

    Being trans is hard. People aren't doing this to be trendy.

    Conservatives won’t leave trans people alone?

    Yes. We are a tiny portion of the population that entire political parties in multiple countries are running campaigns against.

    It’s the trans movement that wants public displays of outright creepiness.

    Oh I'm so sorry I would like to exist in public.

    Believe me, most of us wish trans folks would just go be trans and stop the theatrics.

    Then leave us alone.

    You’ve got it backwards as to who the aggressors are here.

    I cannot express how much I hate people with your beliefs, without getting banned. The world would be a better place without people like you in it.

    TheMage,

    Sorry we disagree. At least you’re being mostly civil about it. Being in public just minding your own business and putting on a drag show are not the same thing and you know that. Being accepted and parading around flamboyantly are also different. I’d say most people are against discrimination when it comes to basic rights. Like, job offers, school admissions, etc. But, that doesn’t translate to pushing propaganda or overdoing it. There is a line here that’s reasonable.

    Take care.

    darq,
    darq avatar

    Sod off, into the sea.

    CaptainAniki,

    deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • TheMage,

    I know. As soon as you question the “agenda” at all you get attacked by the usual suspects. Whatever. It’s clear that when people get mad an insult you that you’ve struck a nerve. They can’t handle it.

    OccamsTeapot,

    “The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” - Carl Sagan.

    Deceptichum, in The US is Fanning the Flames of War with China
    Deceptichum avatar

    China creates conflict with all its neighbours and tries to steal their territorial waters.

    China threatens the existence of an independent Taiwan.

    China commits literal genocide against Uyghurs

    And it’s the US starting shit this time? Give me a fucking break imperialist sympathisers.

    regul,

    Explain why any of that is the US’s problem or necessitates a response from the US at all.

    Silverseren,

    The well-being of the world should be everyone's problem. It's just that with the largest economy and comparative power in the world, the US has a greater responsibility than most. Queue the Spiderman quote.

    regul,

    This role of “world police” has not paid off for the US for the last 50+ years we’ve been doing it.

    cnnrduncan,

    Idk their economy definitely has benefitted from stuff like international shipping (which their “world police” have been essential in protecting) it’s just that they allow their oligarchs to seize most of the profits. Their government definitely didn’t take up the role out of the good of their hearts!

    regul,

    I don’t think international shipping was under much threat from Iraq or Afghanistan.

    RustledTeapot,
    RustledTeapot avatar

    Morally, we made a commitment to preserve democracy and we keep our word.

    Geopolitically, microchips.

    nicktron,
    nicktron avatar

    Morally… 🤣

    andyburke,
    andyburke avatar

    "The West" is essentially the group of nations attempting to abide by a moral code. It is not always, or maybe even often, successful, but there is a vast gulf between their morality-based approach and what China, Russia, DPRK, and other fascist/semi-fascist nations are doing.

    cnnrduncan,

    Nah the west pulls plenty of shady, awful crap but that’s just a reason for the west (and everybody else) to try to be better - it shouldn’t be used as an excuse for other countries doing evil shit.

    Landrin201,
    @Landrin201@lemmy.ml avatar

    It’s amazing anyone can believe they are well informed and unironically say this bullshit

    pressanykeynow,

    we made a commitment to preserve democracy

    Huh, when did you make such a commitment? Sometime in between of toppling democratic governments, installing dictators around the world and invading sovereign nations?

    regul,

    Well the moral argument is obviously false on its face.

    But the microchips argument is also bizarre. Taiwan isn’t the only country that makes microchips. In fact the US has been spending large amounts of money to stand up domestic chip manufacturing. And China is also the leading global supplier of plenty of other commodities. Why is it that only matters for microchips?

    shreddy_scientist,
    @shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml avatar

    So first, the US having military bases surrounding China is tied into why they disagree with their neighbors. They allowed the US on the boarder so it makes sense they aren’t stoked about it. The US has at least 750 military bases around the world in 80 countries. The next closest country has 145 bases and thats the UK. If we want to reference imperialism, then starting with the US is the most practical based on this alone.

    In addition, only 12 countries consider Taiwan as an independent country. Regardless if this is correct, the actions the US has recently taken with Taiwan is without question increasing tension in an already tense situation.

    Furthermore, following the numbers on the Uyghur women being forced to have contraception implants would mean each woman has 8 impants. This makes absolute zero sense. The fact the US media’s primary source on the Uyghur situation is an outright lunatic does help make it all add up though.

    All in all, it takes two to tango for sure. Yet the US seeing it’s global power drastically decline makes their moves less obfuscated and vividly more desperate.

    Silverseren,

    Ah, there's the lemmy.ml tankies trying to obfuscate China's human rights abuses.

    shreddy_scientist,
    @shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml avatar

    If you’re concerned about human rights, why gloss over the US being notorious for human rights abuse? They have the largest prison population ever, comprised primarily of minorities who were obscenely experimented on during MK Ultra. Plus the prior and current treatment of Native Americans or the 6,000,000+ innocent citizens killed in the war on terror. The US is no longer even classified as a first world country. But it doesn’t matter cause the news said the US is definitely the best choice for the world police.

    Are you for bombing Mexico to stop the opioid crisis too? While the idea is gaining traction stateside, it takes minutes to understand of the 14,000+ pounds of fentanyl seized at the Mexican boarder in 2022, over 90% was from US citizens. But logic is totally overrated when it comes to international law I guess.

    mashbooq,

    What about, what about

    Silverseren,

    Hey, I'm the one that started the whataboutism article even.

    cnnrduncan,

    The Americans doing bad shit doesn’t make it alright for China and Russia to do the same bad shit. Is it alright to keep slaves just because the yanks used to do it too? Is torturing and executing prisoners acceptable behaviour to you?

    deft,

    nah fuck China y’all simp for them

    sunbeam60,

    It’s not imperialism when the bases are invited and accepted. These bases open up because the host nations are worried about China and the US is the only country that has the scale to oppose a murderous regime from dominating the region.

    It’s not that the US hasn’t also done bad things - it’s that they’re seen as a safer bet, despite those bad things, for those countries maintaining their independence.

    cecinestpasunbot,

    Please give me an example of where the US was invited in by the people of a country. That certainly didn’t happen in Japan, Korea, or the Philippines unless you’re a fan of right wing dictators.

    Landrin201,
    @Landrin201@lemmy.ml avatar

    Tell me you’re a lib who doesn’t know what imperialism is without saying it directly holy fucking shit

    Why are there so many brain dead takes in this thread? Who the fuck can possibly believe that imperialism can’t be imperialism if it’s “invited”?

    maus,

    Tell me you’re a tankie who doesn’t know what communism is without saying it directly holy fucking shit

    Why are there so many brain dead takes in this thread? Who the fuck can possibly believe that communism can’t be communism if it’s “invited”?

    Landrin201,
    @Landrin201@lemmy.ml avatar

    Did you just have a stroke? Because your comment doesn’t make any sense at all…

    LostMyRedditLogin, in Taliban's Massively Successful Opium Eradication Raises Questions About What US Was Doing All Along

    Editorially, MintPress News supports Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, and the governments of Russia, Iran, and Syria. It opposes the governments of Israel and Saudi Arabia, and reports geopolitical events from an anti-Western perspective. In one contentious article, MintPress News falsely asserted that the Ghouta chemical attack in Syria was perpetrated by rebel groups rather than by the Syrian government.

    Wikipedia article on mintpressnews

    KreekyBonez, in Teen and mom plead guilty to abortion charges based on Facebook data

    wait, what the fuck did I just read?

    this case is way more traumatic and disturbed than a breach of user data from a company that will gladly sell its users to the highest bidder, which is honestly unsurprising at this point.

    but the living hell that family is experiencing… and being punished for? they need to get these people some healthcare, not incarceration. damn.

    TrivialBetaState,

    Your response is problematic because you wrote it with a healthy state of mind. And that will soon be punishable @KreekyBonez

    TacoNot, in Vivek Ramaswamy Wants to Raise Voting Age to 25 (or have a "competency test" for people 18-25)

    How about a competency test for politicians?

    PerogiBoi, in Pentagon AI more ethical than adversaries’ because of ‘Judeo-Christian society,’ USAF general says
    @PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

    This is such a brain dead take. All well adjusted humans have a basic set of morals. It allows our species to collaborate and empathize. “Judeo-Christian” is an alt right buzzword to try and jam religion where it doesn’t belong.

    You can grow up Hindu and have good morals. You can grow up Muslim and have good morals.

    No religion has a fucking monopoly on ethics and morality.

    hansl,

    It’s also just plain wrong. The ultimate code of morals and ethics for Judeo-Christians are the 10 commandments. How many of those have the military broken?

    PeepinGoodArgs,

    This is such a brain dead take.

    But like…imagine if atheists, the godless heathens they are, with a moral compass centered around baseless, fanciful ideologies like humanism ran the country! The place would be a shithole where human life was valued because it was a human life and not because we created god in our image were created in the image of god. Blech!

    Madison_rogue,
    Madison_rogue avatar

    South Park has a great take on this.

    Bishma, in Johnson & Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

    I’m sure this won’t have any chilling effects amongst the researchers who keep us all safe.

    Edit to add that Johnson & Johnson is/was also trying to use patent loopholes to make sure poor people die from tuberculosis; until the internet got mad.

    reverendsteveii,

    The secondary patent particularly irked some advocates because the drug’s development was largely underwritten by public funds, according to a 2020 analysis. That study found public sector funds contributed $455 million to $747 million to getting bedaquiline to market, compared to $90 million to $240 million from J&J.

    We pay for the development of the drug, they get the patent, then we pay for the drug. Socialize cost, privatize profits.

    yesdogishere,

    most of the hype about danger from talcum powder is quite fake. the link between cancer and the powder is hugely tenuous and the researchers are quite shameful. Poor J&J are being victimised when there are millions sufferring from the absence of their valuable and safe talcum powder,

    BobGnarley, in President Biden holds country supplying weapons responsible for casualties inflicted by those weapons

    Now do Israel

    Hyperreality,

    Israel: Now do Hamas.

    Whataboutism is stupid. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    IndustryStandard, (edited )

    Hamas: Israel funded us. Now do israel.

    Rottcodd, in Israeli settlers steal Palestinian farmers’ land in occupied West Bank

    As intended.

    Israel’s strategy with the West Bank is masterful. Wholly and completely evil, but masterful.

    Either the Palestinians just accept their lot, in which case Israel incrementally takes their land through their “settler” proxies, or the Palestinians (entirely justifiably) try to fight back, in which case the IDF goes in and kills a bunch of them, and Israel takes their land anyway.

    It’s fucking despicable, but it works, and if one is devoid of morality, empathy or simple human decency, that’s all that matters.

    rockSlayer,

    Modeled perfectly after the settler-colonial tactics of the US taking over native land.

    squiblet,
    squiblet avatar

    It was done all over the world for millennia long before that.

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    No it wasn’t. Stealing land? Sure. Forced religious conversion? Sure. Invasion and occupation? Sure.

    Genocide, though, only really started in this millennia. Before that, land conquest would just involve replacing the government and institutions, not killing/displacing the local population to have them replaced with settlers. It just didn’t make sense for most of human history.

    Not to say things were good! Instead of genocide, the more common tactic throughout history was mass enslavement.

    squiblet,
    squiblet avatar

    “Started this millennia” is not the same thing as “USA was the first to ever do that”. Of course groups expanded into territory held by others and pushed them out and killed them. I mean, there’s tales of similar things in the Bible. It’s also not really the same as what is happening in Gaza at all.

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    I would say the concept of genocide didn’t really exist before the concept of the nation-state, which is a relatively recent development that happened to coincide with the so-called “discovery” of the New World. That’s hardly the USA’s invention though! Europe pioneered the concept and used it to colonize all over the world.

    livus,
    livus avatar

    @queermunist

    Genocide, though, only really started in this millennia

    Er, I think you mean the last millenium, not this one!

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    lol okay yeah, started within the last 1000 years

    corsicanguppy,

    Some days, you know, it’s not always all about American indigenes.

    amanneedsamaid,

    That just isn’t true, the majority of the population of American Indians died via disease without ever meeting a European. Also, Americans on many occaisons had virtually no qualms with just committing outright genocide, whereas Israel actually needs “tactics” to try to cover it up.

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    Israel doesn’t have qualms about committing genocide, they just don’t want to piss off their neighbors or make their allies uncomfortable.

    rockSlayer,

    I agree, but just for clarity’s sake most of the deaths due to disease weren’t strictly intentional until long after we were genociding them. I’m not saying it’s a mirror image of the US genocides, I’m saying that the Israeli government is modeling their methods after the US, and playing politics about their genocide.

    livus,
    livus avatar

    via disease

    That doesn't really change the main point though.

    If the rest of your family dies and you live alone in your house, then I come and force you out and steal your house. I still stole it.

    Enk1,

    I love that you name-drop the US when it was the English, Spanish, Dutch, and French that raped every continent and genocided entire cultures before the idea of the United States even existed.

    captainjaneway,
    @captainjaneway@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok. But the US did exist during westward expansion. America is a pretty modern look at colonialism. The “USA” territory was originally untouched by westward expansion. It therefore functions as a super recent, unmuddied, look at colonialism. It’s a good example.

    mellejwz,

    So basically they had enough examples to learn from, but completely ignored it and do the same?

    givesomefucks,

    Nope.

    Don’t get me wrong, they’re both genocides.

    But America just kept pushing the survivors west a couple thousand miles at a time, and at least they got some land. Even if there was no where to displace them to, America would have just killed them all.

    Israel is compacting people in a box, physically and psychologically it’s torture. Then, when some snap and do some crazy shit, they kill a bunch of people and make the box smaller

    They’ve been doing it for the whole 70 years Israel has existed.

    And it gives right wing extremist politicians a constant Boogeyman and without any real threat to themselves, and keeps them in power. So its never going to change.

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    Well it seems like they’re trying to push Gaza’s refugees into Egypt, so they might have a final solution to the Palestinian question.

    rockSlayer, (edited )

    That’s an analysis I hadn’t considered. I was thinking about instances like Wounded Knee, the 1862 Sioux Uprising, etc and the aftermath of US colonialism that resulted in the small plots of land they were forcibly exiled to.

    livus,
    livus avatar

    Modelled after the settler colonial tactics of the Americans, British, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Boer, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, Chinese, Germans etc etc

    Settler colonialism is an old evil, we saw it do immense damage in the 18th and 19th centuries. Many of us live with its legacy and are still picking up the pieces.

    zerfuffle,

    That’s actually not how modern China gained territory. The settlements in Xinjiang were explicitly designed to not step on the traditional Uyghur economic/cultural center of Kashgar. Instead, settlement surrounded Urumqi, a place that used to be a backwater of backwaters (the name meaning “beautiful pasture”). Even today, Kashgar and it’s surrounding areas are majority Uyghur (by far), while Urumqi is majority Han.

    livus,
    livus avatar

    @zerfuffle cherry picking "backwaters" to settle isn't the same as not colonizing at all, nevertheless I wasn't talking about Xinjiang in particular.

    Here is a good example of classic settler colonialism by the Chinese.

    Silverseren,

    Oh, and don't forget that the IDF have been reported on (and even video taped themselves) stealing money, jewelry, and anything else valuable they can grab in Gaza while they're there.

    PersnickityPenguin,

    It’s funny, it’s pretty similar to what the US government did when they sent in settlers out to the west. Once over enough settlers staking out clams of land, it ended up crowding out the native Americans which led to conflict, and then you ended up with Custer killing bison on the Great plains.

    Rottcodd,

    I think the significant part there though is that it’s what the US government did almost 200 years ago. Not that that excuses it, but it was a much more primitive and ignorant world then, and at least some of it can be ascribed to that primitiveness and ignorance.

    Doing the same thing in the modern world though - that’s just pure, unmitigated evil.

    livus,
    livus avatar

    @Rottcodd I agree with this. We know now how bad that stuff back then was and we know the generations of misery it creates.

    Doing it now would be like going back to legalising spousal rape and handling plutonium without protection.

    Send_me_nude_girls, (edited ) in Sweden denies Polish official's claim its preschools have "masturbation rooms"
    @Send_me_nude_girls@feddit.de avatar

    How fucked up in the head do you need to be to make shit like that up? It’s not even just an adult, which would be stupid enough, no, it’s an education official.

    interolivary,
    @interolivary@beehaw.org avatar

    Conservatives generally have an astonishing skill at coming up with the weirdest bullshit to justify their hate of anyone progressive.

    HubertManne,
    HubertManne avatar

    considering their tendency to project im always worried its not made up.

    BakedGoods,

    Poland is very religious. Their politicians know that religious people are essentially brain damaged and will believe pretty much anything as long as it comes from someone they view as an authority figure (even if its proven wrong, they’ll still stick with it). Raising children to be religious is child abuse.

    mindbleach,

    Reality is a team sport, to some people. Claims are not evaluated. They’re simply accepted or rejected based on interpersonal trust.

    They think you’re the same way. They think that’s all there is.

    angrystego,

    I think it’s about the general view on masturbation. Like I guess some people in Poland would love to tell preschoolers that masturbation is wrong and shouldn’t be done at all. If anyone teaches children it’s ok, but they shouldn’t do it in front of everyone, it’s easy to imagine it leads to the idea of a masturbation room, which can easily cause outrage in Polích population despite the fact it’s actually nothing wrong.

    johnyrocket,

    *uneducated official

    WaxedWookie,

    How fucked up in the head do you need to be to make shit like that up?

    About as fucked as any conservative regressive representative, pundit, or a good chunk of their voters.

    kautau,

    I mean it’s not much different than

    nbcnews.com/…/urban-myth-litter-boxes-schools-bec…

    Make up some disinformation. Use it as a talking point to get people on your side and advance your goals

    Silentiea,

    On the one hand, it’s similarly ridiculous. On the other hand, I think just about everyone would be more startled disgusted by the claim here.

    cuibono, (edited )

    I think falsely claiming preschoolers have rooms for masturbation or anything sex-related is still a tad worse than falsely claiming they shit or pee weirdly. They serve the same goal of attacking public schools, but one still just seems more fucked up than the other.

    m_r_butts, in Amazon execs destroyed years of evidence before FTC action, agency says

    deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • kool_newt,

    Yep, there needs to be real consequences. In addition, no member of that board or executive team should be able to act in those positions in any company for like 5 yrs.

    Fades,

    The rich and powerful don’t live by the same set of laws, so there won’t be. Best they can do is a slap on the wrist with no further impact.

    Amazon has remained untouched from their price fixing, AmazonBasic product rip offs, union busting, poor worker conditions, etc.

    This too shall pass uneventfully

    lightnsfw,

    They should be in prison.

    ProdigiousWumpus,

    That would be a very effective way to keep them out of those positions.

    jaybone,

    Can you not be on a company board from prison?

    jaspersgroove,

    Corporation - n.

    An ingenious method for securing individual profit without individual responsibility.

    • Ambrose Bierce, The Devil’s Dictionary
    kool_newt,

    Damn you for being exactly right!

    Whirlybird,

    Where what exactly dissolves the company? They weren’t under investigation, they weren’t restricted from throwing away documents or deleting emails as usual. Had they been under official investigation it would have been illegal.

    Wermhatswormhat,

    Yeah but then how would I be able to get that napkin holder that I ordered in my underwear delivered tomorrow! You don’t understand how much I need this thing right now even though I can’t be bothered to get dressed and drive my ass to the store.

    cmbabul,

    How about if the company is so large and sewn into the fabric of the modern world then instead of dissolving the company it instantly becomes a public utility, turn the shares into treasury bonds, and jail the executives?

    opp,

    I don’t really see any other company building massive warehouses that employs millions of underserved people and providing them with decent paying jobs with good benefits. I don’t think 1.6million Americans should be unemployed because of shady actions of the execs.

    repungnant_canary,

    I don’t think forcing people to work in inhumane conditions while paying them close to nothing, so that they still need to use food stamps, counts as employing. It sounds more like exploiting the most vulnerable people, which have no other employment option, because big monopolies like Amazon killed all the competition

    opp, (edited )

    No one’s forced to work at Amazon. For unskilled uneducated Americans $16 an hour is higher than what you can make in retail or fast food, which are some of the only options left especially for Americans in the rust belt. It’s not monopolies that killed jobs that used to provide livable wages like manufacturing it’s globalization. I’m not mad at your ignorance because I didn’t realize how bad parts of America were until I moved to the rust belt. If you want to blame anyone for the lack of quality employment for undeducated Americans blame the politicians and greedy companies that let high paying jobs go overseas to China and Mexico.

    lmaydev,

    Yeah because Amazon kills off all the competition.

    opp,

    It wasn’t necessarily Amazon that killed of the competition, it’s the tech behind Amazon (e-commerce) that killed retail stores. Just like UBER demolished the taxi industry, just like cars replaced horse carriages, and just like AI’s about to make knowledge workers completely obsolete. Amazon still has a great deal of competition from Walmart, Target, and lots of retailers.

    orcrist,

    Yes but no. E-commerce got rid of many retail jobs. So did WalMart. But Amazon also uses a ton of monopolistic and dirty practices. Amazon is working hard to eliminate the competition, because capitalists would rather control the market than compete.

    opp,

    What monopolistic and dirty practices are you referring to exactly?

    orcrist,

    There are so many things that we could talk about. I think the simplest thing to realize is that Amazon was losing money for years so that they could become the central hub of vast numbers of shoppers and sellers, and after they got control of the market, they had a huge amount of leverage over all of those people. Now they can increase prices and manipulate search results, as recent court cases have shown us. They also do horrible things to their workers, they try to bust unionization, many of their delivery drivers are peeing in plastic bottles because they don’t have time to stop at a public restrooms, the list goes on and on.

    Because it’s such an exhaustive list, and because I don’t think you should take my words at face value, I highly recommend that you read the newspaper. There’s so much great information compiled by people online. When in doubt, start with Cory Doctorow.

    lmaydev,

    They also killed a huge amount of e-commerce sites with their sheer size. This isn’t really about tech more about their monopoly.

    opp,

    Shopify accounts for 1/3 of all e-commerce sales in the US in 2023, and with the rise of way cheaper Chinese alternatives to amazon like shien, Temu, & Alibaba express no one really has a monopolistic control in the e-commerce space.

    zbyte64,
    @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    It’s a myth that corporations are job creators. Their very premise is that they can do the same job for less because they have fewer labor costs.

    Cethin,

    People are still fling to buy shit. Maybe they have to do it locally instead? Probably some other company would step up to replace their monopoly. It’s only be an improvement.

    opp,

    So we should just make almost 2 million Americans unemployed because some execs shredded some papers. I don’t know if you know anything about retail work, but they pay less than Amazon does, very few actually pay over $15 an hour, Walmart starts you out at $12 an hour.

    Cethin,

    If Amazon were broken up it’d create more jobs. Sure, they may pay less, but Amazon has centralized a lot of work to increase efficiency.

    We shouldn’t break them up just because they shredded some papers. There are many more reasons than that.

    EnderMB,

    Honestly, I don’t think the company needs to be dissolved, but I think that accountability for the law should exist at director level and up. For a company the size of Amazon, that’s probably around 100 people that should face the consequences - and that’s only the retail org.

    The best description of Amazon is that it is a management company. It’s not a retailer, or a tech company. It’s output is its management process, and it’s this that it uses to build products in different markets.

    So, remove the source of those processes. Let people move up to higher roles, and let someone not breaking the law take the senior positions.

    BakedGoods,

    Hold everyone who works at amazon and every shareholder responsible. Because they are.

    oce,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    Are the dudes moving packages in warehouses responsible?

    InputZero,

    Rip her out, root and stem. (Seriously though, the low level labourer isn’t responsible.)

    DeathsEmbrace,

    Everyone leave none untouched. The blades of grass and water too.

    paysrenttobirds, in Web Summit CEO Paddy Cosgrave resigns after backlash to Israel-Hamas war comments | CNN Business

    His comment on October 11

    I’m shocked at the rhetoric and actions of so many Western leaders & governments, with the exception in particular of Ireland’s government, who for once are doing the right thing. War crimes are war crimes even when committed by allies, and should be called out for what they are.

    (The unsuccessful action of Ireland’s government to temper the UN statement of support for Israel.

    In negotiations that bounced between capitals on Saturday, Ireland was joined by Denmark and Luxembourg in pushing for a statement to include an appeal to avoid escalation, according to diplomatic sources.

    Ireland ultimately backed the unnuanced statement.)

    Google, Amazon, and Facebook, of all people, pulled out of the conference immediately.

    Omega_Haxors,

    All corporations and megarich have an extremely strong FAR right bias, but they hire PR to whitewash their image so they don’t look like nazis.

    mlg,
    @mlg@lemmy.world avatar

    FAANG doesn’t care about human rights.

    Who would have guessed lmao

    library_napper,
    @library_napper@monyet.cc avatar

    What the fuck is controversial about this? Fuck those companies

    bartolomeo,

    Facebook has, for years, been serving Israel by masking, excusing, denying, and distracting from the Palestinian genocide.

    pinkdrunkenelephants, (edited ) in Louisiana police accused of ‘unconscionable’ abuse in ‘Brave Cave’

    Folks, we need to sit down and have a serious talk about this, because this is not the first time U.S. cops have been caught running fucking torture houses in major cities.

    This is exactly the kind of bullshit the founding fathers knew would happen when tyranny sets foot on U.S. soil. Say what you will about them, in this case they’re absolutely spot-on.

    They founded the U.S. in the middle of a revolution sparked by fuck-shit treatment inflicted upon them like that by the British. They had to fight a particularly nasty war to gain their independence, so they gave us the right to speak and of weapons ownership because they knew, one day, we’d have to do it again.

    We are WAY past that time, folks. Holy shit.

    FYI: We have spooks forum sliding and concern trolling, specifically to discourage you from supporting or joining a revolution.

    They do it because they know how powerful we are when we work together. How powerful we are compared to them and the powers that be. How powerful you are and how important your thoughts, feelings and choices are.

    Why else would they find a simple Lemmy thread enough of a threat to be worthy of attacking?

    So don’t listen to them. Don’t allow them to manipulate you or to control the conversation. Don’t give them the fight that they want. They are clearly speaking in bad faith. Simply downvote them into a hole and stand strong.

    Apes together strong, mofos 😎

    Sacha,

    Sadly, the wrong populace of the U.S owns most of the guns.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Then that needs to change, as in now

    Sacha,

    Good luck getting Lauren Boebert’s etc gun’s away from her without her calling to action.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    No no, I mean people who oppose the blatant torture shit need to go get armed.

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    And then what? Shootouts when any cop tries to detain you? These torture houses aren't the first stop after arrest. And people aren't going to jump straight to lethal violence at a traffic stop.

    krolden,
    @krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

    Yes

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    OK. Goodluck with that. I don't think it's a sustainable solution right now. But you do you.

    krolden,
    @krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

    Sustainability is the last thing I’m concerned about when it comes to state sanctioned violence.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    If that’s what it takes. It’s either that or allow them to continue torturing and oppressing American citizens. Do you really want that on your conscience?

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    If that’s what it takes.

    Cool. You first.

    pensa,

    That's a cowardly comment if I've ever read one. You could have just shut up but had to show the world your a afraid to stand up for what's right.

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    stand up for what's right.

    By shooting cops? Starting a revolution? Are you doing that? People love to call for violence on the web while sitting at home doing nothing. It's hypocrisy plain and simple.

    I'm not saying they shouldn't do that. But every person saying "just go do X" while they themselves are too cowardly to be doing it first is pathetic. I'm not on here saying we should all violently overthrow the police state. Because I'm not out there.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Surprise surprise, a pro-establishment concern troll trying to bait us by making the conversation all about us and not about the fact that cops are literally torturing innocent people post-9/11 style and need to be overthrown to be forced to stop.

    Everybody just fucking downvote and ignore this cretin. Nothing you say to him will convince him to support a revolution because he wants things to stay the way they are.

    He is openly stating he cares more about our egos than he does about the innocent lives cops are taking on the regular. He gives not one single fuck about anyone other than himself and neither does anyone else who says the same things he does.

    Just downvote him and ignore him. We can topple the old state together and put in a new one where there likely aren’t any cops, let alone any that can fucking torture people.

    We don’t need to convince people like him that our cause is just.

    Fuck him. Honestly.

    pensa,

    By stopping the wrong doing that is causing real harm to people.

    You can try to justify your lack of action all you want but I see you.

    Nobody, other than you, said anything along the lines of "you go first."

    Ideas are being shared on how to combat injustice. That is doing something. Well it's doing a hell of a lot more than "Cool. You first"

    DTFpanda,

    Am I taking crazy pills? Why are you getting downvoted lmao, what is the average age group here? Seems like a bunch of edgy teenagers.

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    This always happens. Internet tough guys. Everyone pushing for revolution and arming themselves. But they never have useful ideas what to do next not nor are they bothering to even protest.

    DTFpanda,

    adjusts glasses jUsT sTaY oUt of oUr wAy

    TruTollTroll,
    @TruTollTroll@lemmy.world avatar

    Ummm people have started fighting back… a cop was killed in broad day light in his cruiser for simply sitting there, as a cop, in his cruiser… we have full families at weddings fighting cops now too… people are fed up and fighting back… it only going to get worse

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Just do us a solid and stay out of our way please and thank you.

    amanneedsamaid,

    You have been brainwashed as to how horrible a society can become, to the point you think an armed populace rebelling is impossible / impractical.

    The more people start thinking like you do, the faster we move towards repeating that cycle of oppression the founding fathers attempted to break out of.

    OurTragicUniverse, (edited )
    OurTragicUniverse avatar

    So you should be out there, gunning down cops and setting a good example for us! Not whinging online about people telling you to get on with it.

    amanneedsamaid,

    Lmao, misunderstanding a point to the highest possible degree 💀

    OurTragicUniverse,
    OurTragicUniverse avatar

    So what is the point? Talking about revolution endlessly but never doing anything? Bitching out anyone who calls you out on this? Enlighten me.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    The whole point of the thread is to talk seriously about revolution. You might not like it, but it’s what we’re going to do, and right now you’re doing nothing but complaining while offering nothing of real value, so we’re going to ignore you now. Good day

    OurTragicUniverse,
    OurTragicUniverse avatar

    So you're not actually going to do anything yourself? You just want to inspire other people to go storm police stations and shoot up judges?

    Yeah, you're not suspicious at all.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    No, this thread is specifically for all of us to have this talk. It is not a floor for you concern trolls who care only for keeping the system going at the cost of everybody else’s lives, hopes and dreams.

    TruTollTroll,