archomrade,
TokenBoomer,

Did you make that? Good job.

JackLSauce,

Well played, Boomer

rockSlayer,

How do they define “antisemitic acts”? There have been widespread protests in support of Palestinian civilians, which goes against a ban in place since the attack by Hamas. Are they going to use vague definitions to revoke citizenship for people protesting against the genocide of Palestinians?

BarrierWithAshes,
BarrierWithAshes avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • Norgur,

    They will not revoke anything. They will just not grant citizenship for immigrants who have committed crimes that go against the (rough translation) "free and democratic foundations of the nation". Basically: if you are against German democratic and humanitarian values to a degree that is criminal In Germany (eg Hate crimes, attempts to overthrow an election, etc), you can't become a German citizen. You can live in Germany, you can be allowed to work here in Germany, but you ain't one of us ans you can't apply for most benefits.

    Besides, the law actually makes it easier for immigrants to get German citizenship.

    artisanrox,
    artisanrox avatar

    Nazi icons/clothing/symbols are outright banned. It's not unspecific.

    rockSlayer, (edited )

    Yes, I’m aware. In theory, giving parents more control over their kid’s education is good too. I’m against the Stop WOKE act though.

    CarbonIceDragon,
    @CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social avatar

    Uh, is my lemmy attaching the wrong replies to posts or something? Cause for me the comment this reply is on just doesn’t make sense as what is being replied to.

    dangblingus,

    Lemmy does have some bugs. You do see the odd comment in a thread that was meant to be posted on another post.

    rockSlayer,

    If it doesn’t make sense, let me explain it. Germany has previously banned nazi iconography. This has been true for my entire life. I’m drawing parallels between this new law in the article from Germany that has very little explanation, and an unconstitutionally vague bill in Florida being used to ban real history about the US.

    trash80,

    What does “unconstitutionally vague” mean?

    rockSlayer,
    trash80,

    I’ve never heard of this before. Thanks.

    dangblingus,

    The statement is 100% in response to pro-Palestinian protests. They do not need to remind everyone not to be an outright Nazi.

    Draedron,

    With AfD over 20% we can kind of do need to remind them

    Mrkawfee,

    Yes

    Karyoplasma,

    No, it’s impossible to revoke German citizenship. Defined in article 16 GG. The only exception is treason benefitting a state the offender also holds citizenship in.

    Roflmasterbigpimp,
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    Deal with it. If you want to make out with Hamas ,do it without german citizenship.

    vxx,

    It was about time. All those diehard Erdoğan fans for example are pretty antisemitic in my experience.

    nobleart9932,

    Antideutsch out in force I see.

    HawlSera,

    This is a way to spin being able to remove organize citizenship to those who are supportive of Palestine or critical of Israel, and paint them as enemies of peace. This is Germany bringing back old traditions from the 40s.

    hassanmckusick,
    mojo,

    How are they going to detect that, a “yes/no” question?

    SCB,

    Per the article, past convictions.

    mojo,

    Germany now bans Germany

    SCB,

    Germany has banned that aspect of their history for quite some time

    vivadanang,

    geeze get over your preconceptions about europeans, they have words for yes and no…

    yikes

    jalda,

    They will use this law to deny citizenship to people from Palestine

    Draedron,

    If they had past convictions

    mojo,

    And Ukraine I suppose

    Bartsbigbugbag,

    Likely to anyone who even feigns sympathy for them too, if German reaction to Palestinian Liberation protests are anything to go by.

    barsoap,

    There’s a quite simple line in Germany: Don’t be violent and don’t shout things like “gas the Jews” and you can protest. And thousands did in quite a number of cities on quite a number of days. Get out of your filter bubble.

    Grant_M,
    @Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

    Exactly.

    Roflmasterbigpimp,
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    True.

    xia,

    Until the brain-scan is perfected.

    Mrkawfee,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • SCB,

    Imagine being this misinformed lol

    SafCack,
    @SafCack@lemmy.world avatar

    Israel is a apartheid ethnostate, so it’s a model country for white nationalist.

    SCB,

    It’s neither of those things, and it’s really racist of you to say.

    20% of Israel is made up of non-jewish Arabs and they have full citizenship. Also, fun fact, not all Jews are white.

    LaLiLuLuCo, (edited )

    None of the people pushing the aparteid ethnostate angle are from the area…the settler shit is bad but like a lot of Israelis agree they are bad and should go. Cops are Bastards.

    Explain it’s a sectarian thing based as much on politics (who won a civil war our grandparents generation fought) at this point and they just don’t care.

    Like there’s been very public attempts to remove the far right government members. No one remembers the entire country including the air force striking when Bibi tried to fuck with the judiciary prosecuting his crimes earlier this year. The president (its usually mostly ceremonial) is the leader of the Socialist Labor party.

    Bibi is at historic low popularity, 8-9/10 Israelis (including the large Arab citizen Pop) want him gone.

    Gaza is fucked now because the Palestinian nationalist movement went wild and militant after Yaser Arafat died. Dude was also massively corrupt and hurt his people for his own personal enrichment.

    (also every time someone pops off about Zionism and the Ashkenazi tribe immigrating to the region in the 1800s I have to consider whether to tell them like 69% of jews in Israel literally aren’t European zionists under their own definition. Around 900k native to region for centuries jews moved to Israel shortly after it came into existence when they got expelled from the surrounding countries in a nationalistic fervor that spurred a ton of extremely bad shit.)

    Venomnik0,

    Why would say it’s racist when being jewish is a religion? Also just because they’re not particularly white doesn’t mean that White supremacy can be inspired or want to support ideologies like apartheid states. Especially the people they’re targeting happen to be a group of people white supremacists would deem as “unpure”?

    SCB,

    Especially the people they’re targeting happen to be a group of people white supremacists would deem as “unpure”

    They’re targeting Jews?

    Like you see how fucking silly this whole diatribe is, right? You’ve got nothing to back your ethnostate claim up, nothing to back your apartheid state up, and Nazis do not typically care for Jews.

    This conversation is just dumb man.

    LaLiLuLuCo,

    Because there’s a bunch of tribes including the majority of modern Israeli jews who are native to the Middle East for centuries.

    Arabs and Hebrewd are both Semitic (as in native to the area) and both groups look the same. There’s like half a dozen sub groups plus others that are welcome in Israel and are full citizens and aren’t jews.

    It’s a sectarian conflict. Foreigners injecting racist whiteness into it is ignorant of the situation actually in the region.

    Exatron,

    So, you’re just going to ignore the Israeli attempt at committing genocide against the Palestinians?

    SCB,

    No I don’t think there are credible claims of genocide whatsoever.

    If Israel was intent on genocide, they could easily accomplish that. They are most assuredly not outgunned.

    If they wanted to displace Palestinians permanently, they could absolutely do that. No nearby nation would commit serious forces to stop them.

    It is quite obvious that, though terrible civilian losses are occurring, Israel is trying hard to mitigate them. Civilian losses occur in urban fighting. Moving the population that they can to the south is part of minimization of those losses.

    Squizzy,

    They have displaced Palestinians permanently, upto now anyway. The Zionists ran them decades ago, how has Israel expanded if not for displacing people.

    You haven’t found evidence of a genocide…is the bombing of refugee camps in the city they are sieging not strong enough evidence for you? Do you need gas showers and a pile of shoes?

    SCB,

    They have displaced Palestinians permanently, upto now anyway. The Zionists ran them decades ago, how has Israel expanded if not for displacing people

    This is just flatly inaccurate.

    Squizzy,

    Given Israel didn’t exist before then it is absolutely undeniably true. It is also true that they drove Palestinians out of their homes and Israel’s map has grown ever since it has been established, up to last month when it’s own PM showed a map encompassing land currently not a part of Israel.

    Tell me please how any of this is untrue.

    masquenox,

    …but if you’re an outright Nazi, German intelligence might have a job for you.

    sic_1,

    Is there maybe a way to use this to revoke citizenship of all these CXU/AfD Fascists?

    masquenox,

    Nope. These types of laws are never aimed at blonde and blue-eyed people… not in the west, anyway.

    Cannacheques,

    If you’re not white but you want the best for your country and love your job, you’re fired and accused of being a communist lol. Literally idiocracy.

    Karyoplasma,

    There is not (Art. 16 GG). IIRC the only exception is the fringe case of someone having dual citizenship and enlisting to fight in a conflict involving the other country or some shit.

    barsoap,

    You can lose citizenship by taking up another (non-EU) one without having jumped through quite some hoops before, have another citizenship and fight in their army without previously asking for permission (there’s a blanket exceptions for EU, NATO, EFTA and a couple of others), by giving it up, or being adopted by foreign parents. In all cases you won’t lose it if it’d make you stateless.

    On the flip side if you lost your German citizenship previously due to the Nazis you can get it back no questions asked, some but quite low bars exist for cases like a woman marrying a foreigner (until 1953 that meant she lost citizenship). You can also get citizenship pretty much instantly if you live in a territory that once was Germany, or in the ex soviet block, and still are considered to be ethnically German.

    For the rest it’s generally get a work permit, get permanent residence, stay here for eight years, that can be reduced to seven by completing an integration course, six if you’re aceing integration, pass a written test, got sentenced to more than a misdemeanour, know enough German, swear allegience to the free and democratic basic order, and are willing to lose your old citizenship (exception: EU or Swiss citizens, also, hardship. E.g. Iran simply doesn’t release people from their citizenship, the US demands exorbitant sums – but Americans still might want to get rid of theirs to get rid of the IRS).

    Karyoplasma, (edited )

    Iran has this clause that they can technically allow someone to renounce their citizenship: the Council of Ministers has to accept your request and they simply never will, so you have to stay.

    I have a friend in Iran that is a born Iranian who wanted to renounce his citizenship for years. First he was told it’s impossible before having completed the mandatory military service (a lie, it is not a requirement by their own laws). He finally caved in and did the 2 years bullshit service. Then, they told him he needed to be 26. Ok, fine, he waited until then. Then they told him his questionnaire form was outdated and he needs to apply again with the new one. How to get the new one? Only way seems to be over the official page that links to a dead link, literally 404.

    atk007,

    Yeah, the law this vague is purposely designed to be abused by the government. German police are already trying Nazi tactics at this point. The pro Palestinian rally at Frankfurt, they literally isolated young people with Palestinian flags, took pictures of people and their ID cards, and suddenly these people now have started getting problems in their schools,universities and jobs, even when they never shared anything political themselves. Germany and Fascism is a story for the ages.

    jaschen,

    The law is pretty clear. Are you a Nazi? Don’t be or else you don’t get a citizenship. They already have a law against being a Nazi so this new one isn’t some new law they could abuse now that they couldn’t before. Stop fear mongering.

    Cannacheques,

    Imagine just being an innocent person being caught up in this crap, then having literally everyone try to scapegoat you lol

    Jumi,

    That sounds really extreme. Do you have a reliable source for that?

    atk007,

    It’s all over Twitter (or X), YouTube and TikTok. Plus, I was there in person and saw plenty but can’t show due to self preservation.

    Jumi,

    So you have none, gotcha.

    Lemminary,

    Lol

    BraveSirZaphod,
    BraveSirZaphod avatar

    You have to realize that this is not a terribly convincing statement, right?

    atk007,

    I do, but I gotta do “Trust me Bro” cuz I like anonymity here on Lemmy.

    SCB,

    Maybe just don’t do antisemitic shit

    Albatross2724,

    Ah yes, because recognizing that Palestinian civilians should have human rights and not be discarded like subhuman scum is what flies as antisemitism now.

    ParsnipWitch,

    And it should be Palestinians human right to shoot at and kidnap Israeli civilians or say Jews are filth that the land should be cleansed of?

    snugglesthefalse,

    What part of “don’t kill Palestinians” is the same as antisemitism?

    SickPanda,
    @SickPanda@lemmy.world avatar

    the part where pro-palestinian protesters attack jews and synagogues. This happened some years ago here in Germany and happens now again.

    The german central council of jews is aware of this and has been complaining about the rising number of antisemitic attacks by Muslims for many years now.

    Franzia,

    Got a source on this? I’m american and this is just not something I’m being made aware of.

    SickPanda,
    @SickPanda@lemmy.world avatar

    I found some English articles:

    Muslim with knife in synagouge in 2019

    most recent attack on a synagouge

    I couldn’t find an English source for the stuff from the central council of jews, but a German one.

    SCB,

    The part where people are attacking and harassing Jews worldwide right now

    flerp,

    How would linking one of the many posts you saw “all over twitter” break your anonymity?

    jaschen,

    So you did “MAH WESEARCH???” Go try that shit at reddit. This shit doesn’t work here.

    barsoap,

    People attending an outlawed protest get rounded up and identified, news at 11.

    No, seriously. There have been plenty of pro-Palestine protests in Germany getting permits, there also have been plenty of pro-Palestine protests in Germany which got outlawed. The reason? Different organisers. Different capacities of those organisers to make sure that the protesters won’t commit crimes. Courts overruled some of those police assessments, but not all.

    Like, people were up in arms even before all this went down that the Nakba protests in Berlin got outlawed. They completely ignored that in previous years, the same organisers held protests and those turned violent, broke out into “gas the Jews” chants, and whatnot.

    As the Basic Law says: Every German has the right to peacefully assemble without weapon. The “German” part is usually ignored, also foreigners enjoy that right in practice. The “peacefully and without weapons” part OTOH is not negotiable.


    Part of this is a cultural problem: The organisers don’t seem to understand how protesting works in Germany, what the do’s and don’ts are. And when they cross those lines, things get out of hand, public order is infringed upon, they try to play the victim card.

    Do you know how much German police or Germans in general care if you call us Nazis? How much that stings? I’ll tell you: Zero. Because we know you’re full of shit.

    qyron,

    That was cathartic to read.

    atk007,

    You wrote a whole lot of words to just say that the government can do whatever. The protest on the 20th of October was specifically granted permission from the courts on the 19th, a day earlier. Half an hour before the protest, Polizei announced that it is now verboten (when? where?) and started arresting people and IDing them, the people who are unaware of changes and coming to attend a permissible demonstration. How isn’t that sketchy? That seems like an operation to identify pro-Palestinian people and intimidate/harass them, and actually follow through by contacting their universities and work.

    I have been in Germany for around 2 decades as a dark skinned person, don’t tell me the scope of Nazi infiltration in the German military and police. I face them everyday. It’s common news among everyone, only willfully ignorant ones try to overlook it, and later will cry after their fascism gets discovered, just like from the Holocaust documentary when, German citizens were first taken to see concentration camps, and started crying “we didn’t know”. Ja right, gimme a break.

    barsoap,

    On the 20th? Only thing I can find in the press talks of a protest in Frankfurt around that date is on the 21st, which was peaceful and legal. A couple of counts of display of forbidden symbols (presumably Hamas flags), one count of incitement to hatred, but in a context of 1500 participants that’s nothing.

    Me thinks you’re making up shit on the spot.

    atk007,

    Me thinks less of what you think, and the 21st was also not peaceful but due to what happened on previous days, lawyers had a court order of peaceful assembly again, and didn’t back down, and let the demonstration happen. The irony of other people gaslighting me and telling me what happened when I witnessed it myself. Were you there at Frankfurtdemonstration? You are free to look, social Media is full of these things.

    Roflmasterbigpimp,
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    Prove it. Show us something when its so easy to find. Show us a reliable unbiased Source.

    barsoap,

    and the 21st was also not peaceful but due to what happened on previous days,

    The police literally called it peaceful. What do you mean by “what happened on the previous days”? The city wanted to ban it, the court allowed it, and the protest went ahead as planned. That’s business as usual in Germany.

    If there were protests before that they likely were (correct me if I’m wrong) unannounced and if you don’t announce a non-spontaneous protest the police can dissolve it without a court order. That’s why people announce protests: To have legal protection.

    You are free to look, social Media is full of these things.

    Do any of those people understand the legal and cultural situation? Also, which fucking posts. You have been asked before to provide links, and came up empty. I gave you a report from the hessenschau, do you see any factual errors in there? Ones that you could back up?

    Roflmasterbigpimp,
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    He doesn’t have any. He is just mad you called out his lies.

    Franzia,

    I appreciate what you’re saying and I’m a little angry that people are calling you out for not providing sources. So I went and found some articles that can get us started finding out more about how the German government is treating pro-Palestinian protestors.

    Wikipedia: Nancy Faeser

    DW: Police Break up Gaza Protests

    65 Officers Hurt, 174 Detained in Berlin Protest

    Reuters: French and German Protestors Afraid

    Germany Bans Samidoun, pro-palestine group

    barsoap,

    Already the case. To gain citizenship you generally have to have a clear criminal record, with the exception of youth offences, fines up to 90 days, and prison up to 3 month if it was on probation, unless the motive was antisemitic, racist, xenophobic, or otherwise contemptuous of humanity.

    If they want to extend it to “has done something like that that wasn’t illegal” then they’re going to have a hard time before court as it would amount to immigration officials infringing on prerogatives of the judicature.

    Cannacheques,

    Tell that to Israeli government and the NSO group destroying family values and relationships, selling spyware to the same dictatorships they claim to stand against then attempting to avoid accountability.

    arymandias,

    I’m afraid the call is coming from inside the house in this case.

    jol,

    Why not make that hate crimes in general?

    jmcs,

    Because that’s already in the law:

    Sentence 1 does not apply if the foreigner was convicted of an antisemitic, racist or xenophobic offence, or other criminal offence evidencing contempt for humanity as referred to in section 46 (2) sentence 2 of the Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch) and sentenced to a prison term, fine or youth custody and the court judgment found that the offence was based on such a motive.

    This is 100% performative bullshit.

    yetAnotherUser,

    Minister Faeser also makes it clear: “Racism, anti-Semitism or any other form of misanthropy stand in the way of naturalization - there is zero tolerance.” A clear commitment to the values of a free society should therefore be a prerequisite for naturalization. Anyone who does not share values such as the dignity and equality of all people and the equal rights of men and women, or who even acts against them, may not become a German.

    jmcs,

    But that’s already in the law. Unless the idea is to throw the Rechtsstaat out of the window and remove the requirement that people have the right to a fair trial.

    jcdenton,

    Define anti semite

    Mrkawfee,

    Not kissing Israel’s ass presumably

    jcdenton,

    Israel is objectively in the right in the war but I’m afraid that defining anti semite could mean anyone they don’t like

    Rolive, (edited )

    deleted_by_author

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  • Karyoplasma,

    gottverdammt*

    Lemminary,

    Why do you say that they’re in the right? Serious question and not being confrontational. I really want to know what people think about this whole thing.

    jaspersgroove, (edited )

    Europe was a pile of smoking rubble after World War 2 and they didn’t want to deal with all the Jewish refugees displaced by the war. So they used a Bronze Age fairy tale as an excuse to drop an entire country in the middle of somebody else’s country in the Middle East and steal a bunch of land from the people who had been living there for centuries, if not millennia.

    Therefore, Israel has a right to exist. QED.

    Dkarma,

    This guy gets it.

    Putting the Jews in Palestine was racist AF. They should have been given Germany. Its just the Europeans didn’t want them in Europe.

    Dontcare,

    The Jews weren’t put there, they went there because that is the land they are native to. The Muslims for a long time had racist laws against Jews immigrating but allowed Muslims and even forced Muslim groups like the circassians to immigrate.

    If the Muslims in Palestine are so offended by having the native people of Israel live there peacefully and generate tremendous wealth, why on earth should Western countries accept the Muslim foreigners who hate the west, are criminals and live off welfare ?

    SCB,

    middle of somebody else’s country in the Middle East

    This did not occur

    Dkarma,

    It did tho.

    Imagine trying to pretend that Palestine didn’t exist just cuz colonial England said “this is ours”.

    It’s like saying Vietnam wasn’t vietnamese when the French “owned” it.

    Statehood is not relevant in the context of forcibly moving ppl from their generational homes.

    SCB,

    Imagine trying to pretend that Palestine didn’t exist just cuz colonial England said “this is ours”.

    The British Mandate of Palestine (which was not a state), arose because of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. Palestine has literally never been a country, in all of human history. There were Jews living there at the time, too.

    The only people who have ever seriously tried to make Palestine a country are the Israelis (and by proxy the US/UN)

    Gaza and the West Bank were parts of Jordan and Egypt, lost during the 6 Day War, so even then the area we call Palestine wasn’t Palestinian. Israel gave them the territory, and was under no obligation to do so.

    Dkarma,

    Again being an officially recognized state has nothing to do with it. You act like colonized people have no inherent right unless the UN recognizes them as a state. That is not only false but laughably absurd.

    You’ve created a completely arbitrary rule that demonizes Arabs for really racist reasons.

    Palestine was recognized by the people who lived their as theirs. For thousands of years. Doesn’t matter if it was ottoman or England. Those Palestinians were there until English decisions pushed them off the land.

    Those are facts u can’t dispute.

    SCB,

    You said they took over someone’s country, and that never happened. I certainly didn’t bring up a factually-incorrect point and argue against it.

    Palestine was recognized by the people who lived their as theirs. For thousands of years.

    This is an extreme oversimplification that also denies there were many ethnic groups in the region. There was no “Palestinian” identity for those thousands of years.

    I strongly support a two-state solution and Palestine becoming a country for the first time ever. Hamas does not.

    Dkarma,

    Now you’re just being pedantic. Yes in 1948 what was considered Palestine wasn’t an official country as recognized by the UN.

    Again. None of that is relevant.

    The people who were there were forced out to make way for a un recognized “state.”

    You’re pretending like it’s ok because the UN didn’t recognize this area as a state already…despite the fact it was widely recognized by everyone else who actually lived there to be what we now call Palestine.

    You could make the exact same argument for how the Germans treated the Jews… Makes you realize you’re the bad guy here doesn’t it.

    SCB,

    This is fuckin ridiculous man.

    Some light reading, that may perhaps educate you on the significantly longer and more complex situation that you like to pretend - like the fact that the area was majority Jewish before Israel existed.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

    I’m not sorry the Ottoman Empire was dismantled. Though their culture impresses me, the rest of their history does not.

    Dkarma,

    Keep siding with apartheid

    SCB,

    If you knew what apartheid meant you’d know how fucking dumb that line is.

    Consider actually educating yourself. It’s not hard.

    Dkarma,

    No one cares what people who side with oppressors think.

    charonn0,
    @charonn0@startrek.website avatar

    they didn’t want to deal with all the Jewish refugees displaced by the war

    Also, many Jewish refugees did not want to return to countries that had handed them over to the Nazis.

    Dontcare,

    A bronze era fairy tale? It historical fact that Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years and built all the cities from there.

    Jews started immigrating to Palestine in the 1800s and it’s that point that many of the current arabs immigrated as well as the Jews developed the land. The arabs did not care if a Muslim immigrated from Iraq but were against a Jew from Iraq because they are fascist.

    At the behest of arabs the British who controlled Palestine restricted Jewish immigration, and yes WW2 refugees lived in camps in Cyprus for 5 years because no one would take them. That is why there had to be a specifically Jewish state. In 1948 the UN partition plan taking a small piece of Palestine for a Jewish state where arabs could live freely and equally and not be displaced was accepted by the Jews and the arabs went to war over it.

    Jews are the natives of the land, it is so asinine that Muslims who have entirely Muslim countries from Morocco to Pakistan would be in hysterics over this thing. You see the way they destroy historical artifacts in Afghanistan, Iran, these are the most belligerent, fascist and anti semitic people.

    What other example in the world is there an example of people who are native to the land being barred from living there?

    BraveSirZaphod, (edited )
    BraveSirZaphod avatar

    I'd say the basic position, without trying to start a big argument, is that regardless of historical grievances, Israel exists and is not going anywhere. That doesn't mean that its oppression of Palestinians is justified or that settlements in the West Bank aren't counterproductive to peace, or that they haven't committed terrible atrocities.

    Be that as it may, none of that can ever excuse what happened three weeks ago. No amount of legitimate grievances can ever justify intentionally slaughtering hundreds of innocent civilians, and given that those attacks were explicitly organized by Hamas, who has the violent destruction of Israel and murder of its citizens as an explicit goal, Israel is justified in eliminating Hamas from ever being a threat again.

    That does not mean that they have the right to just flatten Gaza and murder all its residents, which, it needs to be said, it easily could do and is not doing. However, while they certainly could be doing much more to protect the lives of Gazan citizens and should be criticized for not doing so, their fundamental aim of eliminating Hamas and forcibly de-militarizing Gaza is legitimately justified.

    Ultimately, a two-state solution is the only realistic path towards some kind of peaceful co-existence, and that is impossible when you have a party like Hamas that is expressly opposed to the existence of Israel and takes action to indiscriminately murder its citizens. Again, that doesn't mean that Israel hasn't also done objectionable things as well, but what it hasn't ever done is drive the IDF into Palestinian villages and start shooting every man, women, and child they see.

    Essentially, I support actions that make peace more possible and oppose those that don't. There is no world in which Hamas is part of a productive path to peace. Similarly, I'm also extremely opposed to West Bank settlements and have next to no sympathy for the people that voluntarily move there. They only really began in earnest once Likud gained power, and Likud is also a party that has no real interest in moving towards peace (though thankfully, they're absolutely toast once the fighting is over). However, the lands that were attacked three weeks ago have never been claimed by any Palestinian government and have been recognized as Israel's since 1949.


    That's roughly the general liberal pro-Israel approach I see. Likud is bad and needs to go. Israel does a lot of bad things and needs new government (a sentiment shared by a good half of Israelis). Hamas are literal terrorists and absolutely have to go. If you have any genuine questions to ask that isn't just accusing me of being a genocidal maniac, I'm all ears.

    goat,

    Your comment’s great!

    But every single time a two-state solution has been pushed forth, Palestine and the Arab League have refused and declared war (which they lost, twice).

    Lemminary,

    Thank you for your well thought-out response. This whole thing is a little overwhelming for me and I’m still trying to inform myself to figure it out. I see horrible from both sides in the news and also good arguments for both sides in the comments. I’m hoping some insight goes a long way!

    Btw, before I get flack for being a centrist, which I’m not, I feel this conflict needs an unusual amount of nuance. I’m also thinking that maybe I don’t need to take a side when neither party wants peace. It’s tough.

    BraveSirZaphod,
    BraveSirZaphod avatar

    This doesn't get described as the single most intractable geopolitical conflict in the world for nothing!

    You're absolutely correct that it's an extremely complicated topic with legitimate grievances on all side. If you want to learn more, I'd just suggest that you make sure to get exposed to narratives on both sides and be retain a healthy amount of skepticism towards any news that comes out and towards anyone that attempts to "simplify" the conflict by stating that their side is unequivocally right. There are some people - on both sides, I might mention - that will say that any attempt to draw attention to the nuance and complexity is simply a conspiratorial effort to erase their obviously correct narrative, and this is obviously not done in good faith. Whenever someone is talking about the conflict (myself included!), always ask yourself what's actually motivating them to say what they're saying and try to figure out if they're legitimately attempting to observe events as they happen and describe them or if they're simply trying to push an agenda that they've already decided is correct.

    Also, if I'm correct that you don't live in the region and it doesn't meaningfully affect you, just remember that you don't actually have to have an opinion on every geopolitical conflict in the world! There's much much more to life than politics, and you'll actually lose your mind if you try to learn every detail of every conflict in the world. There's nothing wrong with simply hoping that all sides manage to find a peaceful solution and moving on to touching grass or whatever it is normal people do.

    burchalka,

    This response by BraveSirZaphod really resonates with me, Israeli secular Jew of Russian descent.

    jcdenton,

    I like saying something controversial then not responding

    Dontcare,

    Because if you know the history you know that it is the pals who are belligerent and have instigated every conflict guided by islamic fascism, that their can be no non Muslim nation in the middle east (and later on for the world)

    Obviously Jews have a reason for living in the land, Jews are the natives of the land , you can see in Jerusalem there is a mosque built on top of the Jewish temple, I don’t think it’s hard to figure out who the colonizer is.

    Most of history is reaction to another thing… But if you look up the 1948nparririon plan you will see that Israel was willing to accept a tiny Jewish state on land which was largely uninhabited and the inhabited part Jewish. The arabs went to war against it under the premise there can be no Jewish state. Preceding the state of Israel there were laws against Jewish immigration and discriminatory laws against Jews in every Muslim country.

    Palestine was not a nation in any sense, there were many groups of people and one side of the land had nothing to do with another. Jordan was part of Palestine as was given the the ‘heshimite’ family which is not from there and no one seems to mind.

    So it is clear the opposition to a Jewish state on any form is based in bigoted Islamic fascism, I don’t know how this couldn’t be clear to someone when you see what the Muslims have done to Christians in Lebanon and syria, Hindus in India, and to each other in the Syrian cival war, iran-iraq war etc…

    You can see over the years Israel has made many concessions for peace, offered Palestinian states many times, has RESTRAINED military responses. What steps have the pals ever taken towards peace? They receive millions in aid and use it to build rockets. How asinine can you be to claim to care about the ‘history of the land’ and seek to exclude Judaism? Jews are the natives of the land, arabs and islam are from arabia. It would be like being in genocidal hysterics over indian reservations.

    The people supporting pals are Islamic fascists and slogan yelling clueless teenagers

    masquenox,

    Oh look… somebody running interference for a genocidal white supremacist colonialist state.

    Ho hum.

    Draedron,

    Showing off Nazi symbols. Which already is illegal

    Murvel,

    You dislike jews because they are jews.

    A seven year old could figure that out, or shit, read wikipedia idk…

    Lightdm,

    They are asking which way the minister wants to define the term.

    Murvel,

    The fucking same I would presume, most likely looking it up in a dictionary

    Lightdm,

    How would you derive that someone “dislikes jews because they are jews”? Do you listen to them talk and make a decision following your gut? Do you make an MRI image of their brain and measure their brain waves to read their mind?
    You would have to work with their past actions. And then it becomes non trivial to define “anti-semite”.
    So it is not really about “what does the word mean” but “how do you decide who fits the definition and who doesn’t”. People are concerned about this because it is very hard to make a law that 100% only fits to the people you want to target (leaving asside wether the principle is correct or not).

    Murvel,

    What in the fuck are you even talking about? Do you have the same issue identifying a racist? Do you need to MRI scan a KKK members brain to be sure if they are racist, do a deep dive into the background? Goddamn some of you on lemmy are fucking stupid…

    SuddenDownpour,

    Given how often the term is being misused lately, it’s a fair question. The Israeli embassy started a campaing against the mayor of Barcelona trying to frame her as an antisemite because she took symbolic measures to denounce Israel’s crimes against Palestinians back in February. Plenty of European politicians just don’t want to speak with honesty because they don’t want the bad PR of being the target of this kind of attacks.

    Hanabie,
    @Hanabie@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Why is it necessary to enact such a law in a foreign country? Germany isn’t even on the same continent.

    SaakoPaahtaa,

    Yeah since when germany has had problems with antisemitism?

    dangblingus,

    This is in response to Middle Eastern support for Palestine. Germany (and the EU) are in the midst of a migrant crisis (Migrationpolitik) and the general European populace is by default fairly Islamophobic.

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