It’s so funny and sad watching rich shitheads argue through their propaganda machines.

First its, EV cars aren’t selling!

Then it’s, yes they are! Here’s what’s really happening!

Now it’s, oh no here comes chinas cheap shit cars coming to destroy americas non existent ev cars!

What’s next?



Oh no, the single most powerful corporate industry of the twentieth century, who had EVs thirty years ago, and so horribly mismanaged everything the taxpayers were forced to give them billions of bailout money, is gonna be hurt by affordable cars people want.

Oh boo fucking hoo. You fucked around for a century. Eat shit.


This is true, but companies also have workers, who support communities. Those that fucked around will not be those finding out, even if their portfolios perform poorly.


Oh no! The Mexican workers building domestic cars will now be building Chinese cars!


If the companies gave a shit about the workers we wouldn’t be having this discussion either. We’d have EVs the workers built instead of clinging desparately to ICE and petroleum.

They don’t give a shit. Detroit already showed that decades ago. Why are they being intractable assholes about producing a good affordable EV? Well, the answer’s in the question - they’re intractable assholes.


I used to work in an Engineering role in the Detroit auto industry. I think this is a good thing. The big three have been stagnantly focused on building their cars to be as cheap and shitty as possible for decades. Over bloated and perpetually behind the curve.

Maybe this will light a fire under their asses and motivate them to invest in EVs properly and improve their quality.

Probably not though.

NocturnalMorning, (edited )

Electric vehicles are a means to reduce climate harm, nothing more. Anybody who thinks this is about making money doesn’t get it. Whats crazy is that we have a collapsing ecosystem, and climate, and we’re all still collectively shrugging about it and worrying about money.

When large parts of India and the equator are no longer livable, we aren’t gonna be worrying about how expensive electric cars are anymore.

This is a distraction…


I disagree. If we were serious about climate change, we’d be rolling out mass transit improvements to reduce the number of cars on the road instead of doubling down on personal vehicles. EVs just move the pollution to battery manufacturing and electricity generation. It’s a way for people to pat themselves on the back without actually changing behavior.

I’m not saying EVs are bad, they’re probably better on net than gas cars, but they’re not the transformative change we need. My recommendation:

  • more hybrids, less EVs - requires minimal infrastructure changes
  • invest heavily in high speed rail - goal should be increasing percentage of population that doesn’t need a car
  • break up roads that go through cities, pushing cars to the outside - makes car travel less convenient and mass transit more attractive
  • invest heavily in pedestrian and cycling infrastructure - promote ebikes

But no, we’re investing a ton in EV infrastructure because that sustains the current model.


A lot of your recommendations are very misinformed. Hybrids are not good for the environment. The fuel in a hybrid evaporates a lot more than a traditional ICE, it’s not the stopgap people think it is.

My EV runs on primarily renewable energy bcz my house runs on renewable energy sources. Batteries are dirty to mine, yes, but the carbon footprint is way say lower than a traditional ICE. There’s no debate there.

I agree, high speed rail, and cultural changes to how we drive are necessary. But I can’t make cities do that, hence I buy an EV and ride my bike when I can.


hybrid evaporates a lot more than a traditional ICE

Source? That sounds like FUD from EV evangelists.

I’m guessing you’re referring to plugin hybrids, and only in the case of them primarily running on electricity. As in, they’re evaporating because the gas sits in the tank longer, not because of any difference in how the fuel is stored.

So per mile, hybrids, plug-in or not, use significantly less fuel than their traditional ICE counterparts.


I’m not talking about your EV, I’m talking about EVs statistically. Most people recharge with whatever the local energy company provides, which varies by region.

What’s more is that cars typically recharge at night, so energy from solar either needs to be stored or generated by some other mechanism, which is coal and gas in many parts of the country.

I’m not saying EVs are bad, I’m saying they’re a very expensive, partial solution, and that investment dollars could be better spent elsewhere.

carbon footprint is way say lower than a traditional ICE

My understanding is that EVs take a few years to reach parity with ICE cars, and how long that takes depends on your energy source. EVs take more resources to build, but they pay for themselves carbon-wise fairly quickly.

I’m not saying EVs are worse than ICE or hybrids, only that they’re expensive and don’t solve the problem as effectively as other options.

I can’t make cities do that

Sure, and again, I’m not talking about individuals here, I’m talking about government investment dollars. I think we’d do far better moving EV subsidies to infrastructure projects.

So for individuals:

  • tell your representatives you want better mass transit, specifically what you’d need to not drive
  • replace as much driving as you can with cycling/walking - being visible helps reinforce your request to reps
  • ask friends to do the same
  • keep making the best purchasing decisions you can
HomebrewHedonist, avatar

Human beings are genetically wired to avoid problems until the last possible moment when they have to mobilize. The situation will have to get much worse before people actually take climate change seriously. It’s unfortunate, but that’s what we are.


Good thing when things get much worse we are completely boned.


Cars are not a part of an environmentally sustainable future.


Be my guest to start the trend of getting hundreds to hundreds of thousands of people living in walkable and bikeable areas. Right now, at least in the U.S., that’s not how the country is set up right now.


All that headline accomplished for me is getting Miley Cyrus stuck in my head… :/

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