lunardroid,

One side is working to dismantle democracy. The other side is not. If you don’t vote blue you are enabling Republicans to enact Project 2025. You would enable Republicans to take away rights from LGBT people in America. You would enable abortion bans and enable even more of the genocide in Gaza. You would enable Republicans to do all the types of stuff listed in the meme, and they will try.

I am convinced some of the far left that won’t vote for Biden because of the war in Gaza are being influenced by Republicans. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those people are Republicans trying to get people not to vote for Biden. It may not be an ideal situation, but if you don’t vote for Biden because you think he is handling the war in Gaza horribly, you are doing exactly what the Republicans want you to do. Maybe someday we’ll be able to vote for someone better than him. But for now, you have to understand the reality of our two party system, and deal with it. At the very least, don’t do what the Republicans would want you to do: staying home rather than going out and voting for Biden

m5rki5n,
@m5rki5n@lemmy.world avatar

One side is working to dismantle democracy. The other side is not.

WHAT DEMOCRACY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? The one that enables your country to fund a genocide across the globe DESPITE the outrage of it’s citizens and the… WHOLE WORLD?

You would enable Republicans to take away rights from LGBT people in America. You would enable abortion bans and enable even more of the genocide in Gaza.

How you can enable MORE genocide? People are finite, you either commit genocide, or you don’t. Or you think with your tiny fucking libbrain that SMALL GENOCIDE is totally okay?

But for now, you have to understand the reality of our two party system, and deal with it.

Yeah, sure, do not try to change anything, just deal with our shitty system because there’s no other option. Jesus fucking Christ…

return2ozma,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

In 2020, 80 million didn’t vote. How do you fix that?

npr.org/…/poll-despite-record-turnout-80-million-…

Clubbing4198,
mods_are_assholes,

Looks like a little edgy eddie forgot all about violent insurrection ending in several deaths to overthrow a legal election.

Ooopsie

Saledovil,

4 of these are just, ‘he failed to do more to undo the Republican’s party’s efforts’.

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

How is it that republicans are so much more effective than democrats? Before you use the tired excuse of “it’s easier to break things than to make things” tell me why biden can’t break this support of genocide.

Saledovil,

What makes you think they are more effective?

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Eight years of Obama plus four years of Biden resulted in mediocrity at best, whereas only four years of Trump resulted in teetering on the edge of full-blown fascism.

Saledovil,

That’s because Democrats are pathetic cowards, not suited for the current political climate.

Clubbing4198, (edited )

as far as the border goes, theres no excuse for continuing trump era immigration policy that was, oh shit, already in place before even trump took office. dems don’t care about the migrants affected by climate change that US actions have caused. kamala literally got on a microphone telling migrants to “not come to america” I mean this is the party saying they are gonna save us from fascism but we gotta make sure we vote. democrats like to say that they are everything the republicans aren’t. maybe they aren’t certain things but they are still classist as fuck and would let us die before their colleagues in DC do. maybe they want to keep trumps border policy cause of the growing republican latinx community which is in part due to inaction from the democrats fumbling over themselves and failing to make any meaningful change

Feathercrown,

The democrats are worse than the republicans because they’re letting them enact horrible republican policies

Make it make sense

Clubbing4198,

the democrats are fundamentally closer to republicans in status and solidarity than they are to most working class americans that they claim to represent.

Feathercrown,

True, but irrelevant. You haven’t explained how they’re worse for failing to prevent the republicans from doing stuff

Clubbing4198,

its not irrelevant. no war but class war. the people that fight and die in war are not the aristocrats and politicians that start them. biden is our enemy as much as trump is

mods_are_assholes,

biden is our enemy as much as trump is

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

…no

assassin_aragorn,

I think Ukrainians and Palestinians would disagree with the notion that “there is no war but class war”. A good salary, food security, and affordable healthcare do not cure racism and fascism.

Clubbing4198,

the difference between ukraine and palestine is that the US and the west have a vested capital interest in ukraine. there is no capital investment in palestine. there is in israel. new yorks state employee pension along with texas’s is secured in israeli bonds. follow the money.

palestinians don’t even have any sort of internationally recognized statehood. they have no sovereignty over themselves. this is about class. i personally don’t have a vested interest in ukraine. but the capitalist ruling class here does. the ukrainian people are victims as much as the palestinians are victims of fascism and racism just as much as the palestinians are but the main difference is that one has the united states backing it along with the entire capitalist class corporate infrastructure. the palestinians don’t have that. and who fights the wars? the rich? nope. the poor, who have nothing to offer as means except their bodies, labor and life. there is solidarity at the top, even amongst geopolitics. i mean they all gather in the same room together and act polite and do pleasantries while we have to grit and bear it in the virtual and physical hellscapes they create.

Clubbing4198,

you are interpreting what i said as democrats are worse than republicans. i don’t really see much of a difference in them at this point

capital,

It’s questionable whether or not IVF is possible in Alabama right now.

You have to be trolling.

Clubbing4198,

I cant even afford IVF so its not possible for me at all. Make sure test tube babies are ok but babies already born in gaza dying can be sacrificed. Gotchu

capital,

No. This was a response to the sentiment that both parties are the same so what’s the point.

I then pointed out one vast difference out of many others I could pick.

Then you attempted to pivot to Gaza.

My point stands, the parties are not the same.

xor,

look at their post history, they do nothing but shill anti-biden, pro-trump, 24/7

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

nothing they’ve said is pro-trump, as far as i can see.

xor,

“biden is actually worse than trump” is definitely pro trump…
also quite a bit of lies, and they just called me a snowflake…
it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to recognize a disingenuous person

federatingIsTooHard, (edited )
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to recognize a disingenuous person

xor,

it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to recognize a disingenuous person

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

“biden is actually worse than trump” is definitely pro trump…

no, it’s not. if i said trump is worse than hitler, is that pro-hitler?

xor,

if trump were running against hitler in the next election, yes it would be.
especially if you lied and posted obsessively and constantly about that single issue

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

what did they lie about?

xor,

i’m not engaging with you either

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

looks to me like you almost exclusively engaged with them. is that the kind of non-engagement i can expect, too?

xor,
federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

wrong. the statement doesn’t change meaning just because of what team you want to root for (or against). biden sucks, and is dangerous in a lot of ways that trump isn’t. i don’t know if i care to try to rank them because they’re both pretty fuckin evil dudes.

Clubbing4198,

i meant gotchu as oh i get it, certain babies are more important. got it. not as in i got you in something.

Clubbing4198, (edited )

they may be different on the surface but they both get in my dm’s and grovel for money that i don’t have. they both have the same message at this point: “our country is at stake, give me money so we can stop the other one from making it worse.” when they both have more money than i could dream of. then they both squander that money on frivolous shit, policing and war. they are exactly the same in the ways that really matter. class and hierarchy.

they are colleagues with each other. we are just the public that they have to win over. they have solidarity amongst themselves but balk at worker solidarity. they both lobby against labor. they both make money from exploitative practices. they don’t have any commonalities with the people they say they represent.

capital,

“Being able to have kids or not or being able to have abortions is just a surface level issue”

🤡

Feathercrown,

Are you blind? How can you not see a difference?

Clubbing4198,

considering AIPAC buys democrats and blackmails up and coming progressives I’d say that the democrats are pretty fascist themselves because AIPAC is a zionist organization furthering the zionist colonial project. our choices are fascism or sugar coated fascism. im not choosing either, thanks.

Schmoo, (edited )

Your choices are between a rapid decline to christofascism or the continued slow decline to neoliberal fascism.

Voting in the presidential election is but one of the many political actions you can take, and while it can no longer be used to affect positive change, it can still be used for harm reduction.

I’ll buy time to prepare and fight in other ways by choosing the slow option, thanks.

Edit: I’ll add that your inability to see how things could get worse than they have been under Biden is an egregious failure of imagination on your part. You think we’re at rock bottom? That things can’t possibly get worse more quickly than they already are? You are very sorely mistaken. If Trump is elected a second time and he follows through on his promise of revenge against his political enemies, are you going to think “would’ve happened anyway if we elected Biden instead”?

Feathercrown,

Thank you finally someone who understands how this works

Clubbing4198,

ok would you tell a palestinian american to vote for biden? knowing full well that they have seen live streamed footage of their family being murdered and this administration shrugging their shoulders about it? vote a man that has said that he is a zionist? vote for a party that is bought by an organization that wants to eliminate palestinians? would you tell them that their refusal to vote is stupid and foolish? that they are part of the problem and shill? like i have said before… this is getting so much discussion and the democrats are all coming out to say “hey all, um you need to vote for us, like its real serious” if its so serious they shouldn’t have fucked around while they had the chance to do shit. if they are so serious, take this as a real threat to your power and fucking do something. ceasefire now! trans rights now! housing reform now! land back now!

Schmoo,

Yes, I would and I have. I agree with you about the inaction and complicity of the Democratic party. I want a ceasefire now! I want trans rights now! I want housing reform now! I want land back now!

You will get none of those things by voting, nor will you get them by abstaining. What I have told Palestinian Americans before and what I would tell them again is if Trump comes to power, not only will the genocide not stop, but things will get worse, both here and over there.

Feathercrown,

our choices are fascism or sugar coated fascism

loud buzzer noise

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1865e9ff-6e06-4b8c-9fd2-5c67b9c5c9e5.jpeg

mods_are_assholes,

So why are only red states scrambling to destroy worker protections?

beardown,

I don’t disagree with the intended meaning of any of this

However, it would be more effective with increased clarity if the text were revised to state that he “Didn’t expand the Supreme Court beyond nine, and did not appoint those additional new justices” or even simply “Did not increase the size of the Supreme Court” or something like that. Because he did appoint Kentanji Brown Jackson to SCOTUS, and people will point that out under your current writing of it which will derail discussion of the actual points. Revising the text will foreclose the possibility of that derailment

Clubbing4198,

he also did fuck all about east palestine and let norfolk southern run the show

assassin_aragorn,

?

They had to pay for all the remediation, which is not just a slap on the wrist.

Clubbing4198,

the residents of east palestine are all sick and have been getting worse since the event and the subsequent controlled burn off of the chemicals. there are still checmicals in the water but the EPA says its fine. norfolk southern says its fine. the east palestinians are getting sicker and sicker by the day and not getting nearly enough attention.

assassin_aragorn,

Looks like I’ll need to look into this more, thanks for the heads up.

ComradePorkRoll,

When he said he’s the most pro-union president ever, he was right. But he’s still a capitalist so it doesn’t mean shit. A pro-union capitalist will still let corporations get away with negligent homicide.

givesomefucks,

You don’t consider canceling primaries for a state that habitual votes against party favorite to be dismantling democracy?

Not even a couple cycles after the dnc’s lawyer told a judge primary votes don’t matter and they can appoint anyone and the judge agreed?

They’re not equally bad, but at this point it’s hard to call either democratic

Which will depress turnout, even if the people trying to earn you still vote for Biden

ComradePorkRoll,

The far left isn’t voting because electoral politics are a distraction from actual revolutionary action. While y’all are too busy choosing the lesser evil that will eventually “compromise” with the worse evil because “we need a strong republican party” the far left is taking more direct approaches.

Shiggles,

What a load of self righteous nonsense. Even if anyone believed you, it takes a couple hours out of a day to vote at absolute maximum. I think the revolution can spare that, no?

beardown,

Yeah voting is something that happens, at most, twice a year - with primaries and the general. So a total of 2 hours a year is really a immaterial use of time and effort

Eldritch,

Every few months if you participate in local elections. WHICH YOU SHOULD. Revolution should always be the last resort. But so many long for revolution but can’t be bothered to actually participate in local and national elections.

trafficnab,

You don’t understand, I’m doing my part by posting “1 like = 1 bullet for the revolution” every week on my socialist Facebook groups, what about you, liberal scum???

oatscoop,

For all their many flaws: Democrats leave office without attempting coups when they lose.

olivebranch,

They support candidates in the other party that do attempts coups, just so voters are forced to vote for them instead of the other party. Hilary’s support for Trump in the primaries, should be seen as threat of violence towards the voters and seen as fascism. All the problems with Trump are problems that Democrates are to blame. They are not responsible for other Republicans maybe, but they are responsible for Trump. Trump is a Democrate candidate in the Republican party.

anarchost,

Republicans now know they can elect a functional fascist if he has a little popular support. Democratic institutions may not be lucky enough to hold again.

Maggoty,

If my choices are veiled fascism or open fascism I’d rather have it out in the open so we can fight it.

Socsa,

Well good thing those aren’t your choices.

Maggoty,

If we’re willing to condone genocide by an ally then we’re willing to condone one here. And the reason it’s called veiled is because they have the same goals, they’re just shy about saying it out loud.

Mastengwe,

You realize that if Biden were legitimately committing genocide in Palestine, America would officially be at war with Palestine… right?

Please tell us that you understand this. It’s important that we all know you understand this.

wildbus8979,

I’ve got news for you, aiding and abaiting genocide is also a crime. And in fact member states of the UN have an obligation to pursue the enforcement of the prohibition of genocide. The mere vetos of the US on UN resolutions for cease fire should be enough. We won’t even talk about the weapons trade.

Mastengwe,

I’ve got news for you- he’s not doing that either. Try looking into it. Many people here and in other communities have explained this to you people. Mods have even gotten involved providing proof to dispute the claims.

I’m not going to argue about it. You’re wrong.

Maggoty,

You do realize how responsibility works? Because down your illogical rabbit hole lies this future statement, “If Biden isn’t personally shooting them is he really responsible for the genocide?”

The answer to your question lies in the madness of de facto versus de jure. De Facto, we are and this is why the Houthis are going after our ships. Just like the Germans did in both world wars. De Jure, there is no war in Ba Sing Se.

Mastengwe,

So… we’re resorting to made up future statements now?

Pathetic.

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

He’s not committing genocide, he’s only sending billions in support of genocide. I understand completely.

Miphera,

Cause that worked so well in Germany.

Maggoty,

Voting for the guys that gave Hitler a position of power for temporary political gain sure as hell didn’t work.

kttnpunk,
@kttnpunk@lemmy.world avatar

The electoral Congress decides who’s president, though. Why shouldn’t I as a far-leftist vote third party to express my discontentment with a democratic party that only wants to appeal to the right? I’m tired of people telling me Biden is good enough when we had a actual progressive who had a shot just a few years ago. The climate can’t wait, and the Palestinian people certainly can’t. A placid, centrist left in the face of fascism looks useless to me I’m not sorry. Read a fucking history book.

KombatWombat,

People often say that voting third party is throwing away your vote, but using your vote as a protest like you describe is perfectly valid. Politicians from the major parties do care about how they can appeal to swingable voters, and third parties getting more votes does makes them more influential for future policy. You give up having influence between the two people who actually have a chance in the current election, but realistically you didn’t in the first place if you don’t live in a battleground state.

It’s your vote. Don’t let other people chide you for not spending it on what they think you should. Just use it for a cause that’s worthwhile to you. It’s the people who don’t vote at all that get ignored.

kttnpunk,
@kttnpunk@lemmy.world avatar

Fuck I needed to hear that, thanks. I just believe a lot of Biden voters are relentlessly optimistic and more than a little naive- there’s a lot of propaganda afoot lately but I think it’s important to talk about my choice too. Obviously we need things like ranked-choice voting for third party votes in this country to make a real difference ASAP but IIRC if a party’s candidate gets even 5% of the vote in a election they qualify for some federal funding. I don’t think it’s impossible to fight for better representation and win in the long run that way.

HereticalDoughnut,

If you live in a state that’s not contested, sure vote third party if that makes you feel better. But the reality is that not voting blue in any purple state does benefit the party you are less aligned with. So in the case of a leftist it would benefit republicans. I also would love an alternative to a two party system but in THIS election a vote that benefits republicans is a vote for a 1 party system.

Saurok,

It will continue to be that way in every election as long as people resign themselves to voting for either party that has no intention of ever giving you a “fix” to the two party system. Why would a Democrat or a Republican want to get a third party elected? Makes 0 sense. Let’s say you vote for a Democrat… How does that then incentivize them to do anything differently than how they’re already doing it? Your voting for them is tacit approval of their current agenda and party machinations. If they don’t lose or get challenged by something further to the left, they will never move left. They will continue to pander towards centerist voters. Since our Overton window is already right of center with the Democrats basically being center-right and the Republicans being further right, they will only move rightwards with this strategy. They only pander towards centrists because the centrist vote isn’t guaranteed. So in order for them to move leftward, they need to see that the left voter is not a guaranteed vote. The only way to do that at the ballot box is by voting for someone further to the left than the Democratic party. Yes that might mean that Democrats start to lose, but if they do it’s their own damn fault for not appealing to the leftist voter.

csm10495,
@csm10495@sh.itjust.works avatar

Voting for a third party with no chance of winning takes away a vote from the candidate from the 2 major parties who more closely represents you.

You’re not just doing a protest. If you believe in left values, you’re making it one vote harder for the left to win and one vote easier for the right.

Would you rather the opposition win and we lose democracy or more rights so you can prove your point?

It’s downright selfish imho.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

If you believe in left values, you’re making it one vote harder for the left to win and one vote easier for the right.

democrats, especially joe biden, are not on the left

mods_are_assholes,

Far lefter than anything the repugnicunts are fronting these decades.

csm10495,
@csm10495@sh.itjust.works avatar

Arguably they’re more left than the right is left.

Eldritch,

They’re realistically though the closest thing we have. They absolutely do less damage when in office. If you actually want things to get better. We have to stop doing damage or at least slow down the damage first. It’s basic logic.

Jimmyeatsausage,

I’ve about given up. It seems as though most of lemmy is more than happy to smugly let the perfect destroy the good.

I’m sure the additional dead kids in Palestine and Ukraine and very likely most of the middle east and Europe or Russia (depending on how NATO fares after the US leaves) will thank them for voting for RFK Jr or Jill Stein or Mickey Mouse. I don’t think my daughter will thank them when she gets sent to federally mandated “don’t be gay” camp or has to hide who she is for the rest of her life but hey, at least we made a point. Just like vaccines, sometimes I guess we have to suffer as a species to remember things.

Man, I’m jaded today.

buzziebee,

You have to remember a lot of the people posting that bs likely aren’t Americans and either have an anti western agenda or are being paid to post divisive shit. It’s annoying because Lemmy is such a small community that these accounts appear wayyyyy more than they really should, so it gives the impression that there’s loads of them, but really they are a minority. Chances are they also have a bunch of smurf accounts so it could literally just be one room of guys posting mountains of bullshit every day.

Saurok,

Or there are lots of genuine American leftists in this space like me that believe the things they’re saying and are trying to argue for a better world or a solution. And then they get met with comments that tell them they’re likely not Americans or they’re anti-West or that they’re getting paid to shill. How do I know you’re not getting paid to post what you said? How do I know you’re not some pro-Democrat smurf account run by some party staffer? But instead of asking, what if I made a comment that just said you probably were?

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

“anti-west” … i mean… where is marx from? proudhon? bakhunin? foucault?

anti-west is a reactionary dogwhistle for “commie scum”. it’s red scare bullshit.

and anyone who uses the term uniroically now is an actual white nationalist, a paid cia shill, or someone who has bought into the rhetoric of one of the first two, with or without realizing it.

and you know what, i love that you went on the attack here. this is the lesson i learned in 2016: we live in a post-truth world, no one will believe anything except what they want to believe, so there is no point in defending a position. don’t apologize. don’t backpedal. attack, attack, attack.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

he wrote the usa patriot act and the crime bill. he stopped student debt from being discharged in bankruptcy. bill clinton pushed “welfare reform”. obama destroyed habeas corpus, murdering a us citizen without trial. kids-in-cages is an obama era policy. obama signed taarp.

i don’t believe they do less damage at all.

Eldritch,

I believe that you believe that. But I also know that your belief in that doesn’t make it true. Whether or not one approves of Obama’s actions with drones overseas. Which for the record I don’t. He didn’t end habeas corpus. You are being hyperbolic and disingenuous. Despite my disproval of it. It was a one-time thing with some fairly decent justification behind it. That hasn’t led to any actual policy changes that could be pointed out.

The Patriot Act per Wikipedia

The Patriot Act was written by Jim Sensenbrenner.

Completely unsurprising. You’re lying again. To be fair Biden did claim credit. Stupid liberal doin stupid liberal things.

As far as TARP was concerned. Was there anything they could have realistically done that you would have approved of? No? Then why should we care what you think. Yes, tarp was a bit of a crock of shit. But unfortunately it was the best we were going to get and it was a good thing that we did get it ultimately.

As far as blocking student loan debt from being expunged with bankruptcy. Yes, stupid liberal doing stupid liberal things. However, Biden is also been one of the most active pushing for forgiveness of student loan debt. Could you be any more fake or disingenuous?

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar
Eldritch,

I pointed out that he claimed that. Seems you missed that part. Well if you were being genuine. But I don’t mistake you for being genuine. It isn’t recorded anywhere that I could find that he wrote it. Joe, Biden claiming that he did only means that he claims that he did. It doesn’t mean that he did.

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

this is another accusation of disingenuity that is, itself, evidence of bad faith engagement.

Eldritch,

Not at all. I’m simply pointing out the facts as recorded. Joe Biden made a claim. There is no record showing his claim to be true. Bad faith engagement is claiming that something is true without proof. Which you don’t actually have.

I do think it’s possible that Biden may have had some input on the bill. But the fact remains that you all are absolutely arguing in bad faith. Misrepresenting the facts and evidence available.

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

another bad faith accusation.

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar
bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

everything they said was right. your accusation of disengenuity is itself bad faith. just because you don't believe somebody could be to the left of Joe Biden and Barack Obama and Bill Clinton doesn't make you right.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

thank you

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

Voting for a third party with no chance of winning takes away a vote from the candidate from the 2 major parties who more closely represents you

no it doesn’t. the vote belongs to the voter, and they can give it to any candidate they like. the votes are not owned by the 2 major parties.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

Would you rather the opposition win and we lose democracy or more rights so you can prove your point?

i think they’d rather some other candidate win. that’s probably why they’re voting for some other candidate

Clubbing4198,

Liberals aren’t left. I like this take by Phil Ochs

“In every American community, you have varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects. Ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally.

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers

Tears ran down my spine

And I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy

As though I’d lost a father of mine

But Malcolm X got what was coming

He got what he asked for this time

So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal

Get it?”

wildbus8979, (edited )

Nearing on sixty years, and this song never gets old. 🖤

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

You’re not just doing a protest.

they’re not calling it a protest, either. they’re calling it a vote.

Jimmyeatsausage,

You had an actual progressive years ago…yes. You don’t have one this year.

You say the climate can’t wait…so which path is better: 1 - push for net-zero carbon emissions by 2050, invest $2T in green tech and infrastructure, OR 2 - boost oil and gas production, roll back environmental regulations

Palestine can’t wait…which path is better: 1 - publicly support Israel while pressuring them to limit civilian casualties, work towards a cease fire OR 2 - sending ICE to break up pro-Palestinian protests in the US to remove any protesters here illegally, implement ideological screening as part of the immigration process, stoke anti-muslim sentiment here and abroad.

Read a fucking history book? The Repub is using the same power-consolidation strategy as Hitler, there’s Nazis chilling at cpac, LGBTQ folks are being targeted by Republicans across the country, burning books, politicians changing the contents of history curriculum…they say history doesn’t repeat itself but it sure does rhyme. Well, this is straight-up plagiarism.

kttnpunk,
@kttnpunk@lemmy.world avatar

Yes because there are two paths, only two. Revolution is never a option and we should eat ALLLLL the shit they feed us, thankful for scraps as the fires burn more and more intense. 2050? Do you hear yourself? The damage is already irreparable, that’s far too late. We need action now and a president who hasn’t sold their soul to oil, if such a thing could ever possibly exist. I AM lgbt (trans) and IMHO this is a problem because he’s looking out for conservative billionaires instead. I tell you to look at the history because I agree, the Republicans are Nazis… And a centrist left conceded power to them or had it stolen then too.

Jimmyeatsausage,

Show the viable candidate.

I’m not calling for a violent revolution because I’ve been to a war zone before, and I don’t want that here. That’s the only 3rd path I see for this election cycle. My daughter is also LGBTQIA so it’s personal for me too.

kttnpunk,
@kttnpunk@lemmy.world avatar

Does there have to be one for joe biden to be bad? I’m sure there’s a least a million individual people who could do the job better. At the end of the day I just don’t see any reason to defend the guy, he seemingly has no real passion or empathy and is leaving a lot in this country undone or worse for the wear whilst letting the right fearmonger incessantly

Jimmyeatsausage,

I mean, there has to be a President…and it’s nearly a statistical guarantee that it will be Trump or Biden unless one of them dies before November. So no, there doesn’t have to be a good candidate for Biden to be a bad one…but he’s the best option we have this time around. Like, if I had 2 options for a house for my kids to live in and 1 is rundown shithole and has lead paint and a busted up foundation and the other a cardboard box under an overpass I’ll take the lead paint while I work for something better…every time.

kttnpunk,
@kttnpunk@lemmy.world avatar

Well there has to come a point when the second option’s just not worth settling for. That analogy is so spot on it hurts that you can’t see my point.

Jimmyeatsausage,

Ok…since my analogy is so spot on. Where do your kids live in that scenario while you get back on your feet? In the box outside or the old house with lead paint?

kttnpunk,
@kttnpunk@lemmy.world avatar

Well I decided when I was like ten that this world is faaaaar too fucked up to bring children into so I can’t relate there but going to bat for career politicians online isn’t gonna make things any better. Biden has even called himself a capitalist before- I truly believe in my tired heart he’s standing in the way of progress a great deal more than he’s championing it. I don’t waste my time typing out a response here just for fun.

assassin_aragorn,

I tell you to look at the history because I agree, the Republicans are Nazis… And a centrist left conceded power to them or had it stolen then too.

This is precisely why you should vote for Democrats. The Nazi rise to power is a cautionary tale of what happens when both liberals and leftists don’t take the fascist threat seriously. They’ll play off the fascists to try and get one over the other – you’ve pointed this out with the centrist left already, and how they gave him power. But it’s also important to recognize that the leftists weren’t terribly concerned either. “After Hitler, us!”. They foolishly thought the fascists would let there be an “after” and resigned themselves.

There is only one path forward, and I like to explain it in terms of LotR. The dwarves and elves may dislike each other and sometimes be on the verge of war, but as soon as the orcs appear, they work together as one. The fascists warrant our full attention and scorn. We can never make the same mistake of the Germans to let animosity among those left of center take priority over stomping out fascists.

kttnpunk, (edited )
@kttnpunk@lemmy.world avatar

You’re wasting your time, I already laid out why. Biden is Saruman, dude, that’s my take. I hope I’m wrong, but I think you’ll all feel real foolish for defending this guy someday. I hate fascists and that’s why I can’t settle for Biden; IMHO he’s not anti-fascist or progressive enough to put up a good fight. Especially as a individual, thank gods he has some good people on staff but I still look at Biden and think the dude couldn’t manage a pretend waffle house, let alone a country. And his track record as senator constantly gets swept under the rug, too. He voted for segragation ffs

index,

One side is working to dismantle democracy. The other side is not.

Both “sides” don’t give a fuck about people or democracy, both the red and blue party support dictatorships around the world, genocide and unjust wars. If you vote red or blue you are giving your vote to corrupted criminal murderers with blood on their hands. If i don’t support Stalin in WWII it does not mean that i’m supporting Hitler, the choice is yours! Not voting for red or blue does NOT mean voting for the other color.

anarchost,

Wait… You were against the allies in World War II? Are you one of those Charles Lindbergh leftists I keep hearing about?

index,

Are you pro russia?

You can be against Hitler and Stalin at the same time they were both awful dictatiors. Life it’s not a football match you don’t have to pick a side

anarchost,

Okay, Lindbergh Leftist. Yes, I would have been pro Soviet Union during World War II because Nazis are not just worse, but far worse.

index,

You can be against Hitler and Stalin at the same time, is this to hard to gasp for you?

anarchost,

Yeah, like Charles Lindbergh who was against participating on either side.

I wonder what his political beliefs were.

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

so, out of curiosity, what has biden accomplished (or any one, really,) done to stop any of that?

so far, the only thing he’s successfully achieved is… increasing the DoJ’s focus on domestic terrorism. which, is something, I guess.

After three years of this shit getting worse; why should we believe Biden is able to actually stop it and protect our democracy? it took him two and half, or so, years for him to get the DoJ to assign Jack Smith to investigate trump for Jan 6, and documents, and stuff.

TrickDacy,

bOtH sIdEs

julianh,

Under Biden we have student load forgiveness, we have a better ftc that actually investigates shit, we had an actual climate deal, and we have support for Ukraine, and have an investigation on trump. With trump we have none of that. We get total facism.

Also voting and protest/revolt are not mutually exclusive. At least under Biden we might not have to become a full on fascist state in the next year.

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Under Biden we have student load forgiveness, we have a better ftc that actually investigates shit, we had an actual climate deal, and we have support for Ukraine, and have an investigation on trump. With trump we have none of that. We get total facism.

Most of the Climate deals are corporate subsidies for things they were going to do anyhow… eventually.
As good as the student debt forgiveness is… all of those loans that are being forgiven are loans that should have been forgiven ages ago. There’s zero fraud investigation on that. just a “oops. we let you get scammed for years.” (sometimes even decades.). Not exactly a brilliant dipslay of … governance.

Right now we don’t even have support for ukraine. so much for that much-vaunted bipartisanship that was one of his key sales pitches.

Also voting and protest/revolt are not mutually exclusive. At least under Biden we might not have to become a full on fascist state in the next year.

you do realize that prevailing rhetoric right now is “Don’t protest Biden now… let him win the election first!”, right? which is why I’m being down voted when I call Gaza Genocide.

I don’t think Biden can protect american democracy. I don’t think he has that ability.

braxy29,

“so much for that much-vaunted bipartisanship”

whose fault is that?

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

If Biden can take credit for the infrastructure act getting passed, he can take credit for everything the house does. Or doesn’t do.

(Joking, mostly. But remember his campaign? A major selling point is working across the aisle to get shit done. Seems to have been a niave argument.)

HeyJoe,
FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

So, he’s done nothing to actually protect american democracy. The argument being made by the OC is that he’s protecting American democracy. Where’s that?

your source is mostly about stuff that Biden has fuck all to do with (crime is state and local; Economics, fed and treasury;) and the stuff he does… he’s not done all that much (immigration?) or has gone the wrong way (oil)

aberrate_junior_beatnik, (edited )

staying home rather than going out and voting for Biden

I’m not going to stay home. I’m going to go to the polling place and leave that part empty on the ballot.

Here’s the bottom line: I cannot bring myself to officially support someone who I admit is an active supporter of genocide. Listen to yourselves. You are literally saying that I should feel bad because I won’t support someone who is actively supporting genocide. They are carpet bombing children, intentionally starving them, denying them medical care, all because of their ethnicity. He is expediting military aid to make sure they can.

I wouldn’t vote for Hitler just because I believed his opponent was worse. The reason I wouldn’t vote for Hitler is because of the genocide. I have to draw a line somewhere. If anything, I should probably have drawn it somewhere before genocide.

BTW, I’m not saying you’re a bad person if you do vote for Biden, or even that I’m somehow better for not. I get it. I just can’t bring myself to do it.

[Edit: Americans, if you’re thinking of replying to me, consider instead or additionally going to Ceasefire Now and writing to your representatives. Maybe if there’s an end to the genocide before November I’ll be willing to vote for Biden.]

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

You are a bad person if you don’t vote against Trump, who is the actual comparison to Hitler.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

I’m voting against Trump and Biden. biden spent 50 years in power making trump possible.

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

So you are voting for Trump.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

no, I’m probably voting for Jill Stein again, but I haven’t stopped donating to cornel west yet

CptEnder,

So Trump supporter, got it. Please don’t fucking be registered in Wisconsin.

Be useless somewhere else, thanks. - America

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

neither of them are trump. I think you have problems with reading comprehension.

and Im not registered in Wisconsin but I am in a swing state that went Obama Obama Trump Biden.

BassaForte,
@BassaForte@lemmy.world avatar

When Trump wins your state, just know that you are personally responsible.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

the only people responsible for trump winning are people who vote for him

Micromot,

If you simply look at the numbers, you will see that if for example trump gets 10 votes and biden gets 8. The people who have not voted for either one in this scenario are enabling Trump to win. This is only relevant in swing states though

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

but if I vote for Biden I enable him to win. I don’t want that, either

Micromot,

I wouldn’t want him to win either but it is an alright compromise if the other option is trump

HowManyNimons,

While the votes are being counted, are you going to think “I hope Biden beats Trump” or “I hope Trump beats Biden”?

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

no.

HowManyNimons, (edited )

You genuinely think neither of those two outcomes would be worse? Then I respect your position, but I do not agree.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

i said i won’t be hoping for either of them. i didn’t rank them at all

HowManyNimons,

There are two possible outcomes. Will you hope for one, hope for the other, or not have a preference?

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

i’m hoping for neither.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

The only candidate enabled by any vote is the candidate for whom that vote was cast

Micromot,

That is correct but you’re still allowing the worse of two options to happen by not voting for the “better” but not good option

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

I’m going to vote for someone I want to win. I have a policy of not voting for people I don’t want to win

Micromot,

Which would be valid if the US had an actual democracy and not whatever the current system is

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

it’s valid regardless of your analysis.

Micromot,

Valid might have been a weird choice of words. I meant that your way of voting only works out in an actual democracy. The opinion is valid either way

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

my way of voting always works: the person for whom i vote is the person i want to win.

Waggles, (edited )

This guy thinks Navalny was a Nazi. He’s just a Russian asset.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

this is just ad hominem

Waggles,

It’s more of an argument that your opinion is utter garbage based on your shit judgement.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

it’s not an argument at all. they are just attacks on my person rather than my position.

FenrirIII,
@FenrirIII@lemmy.world avatar

I hope you gain the knowledge to see the bigger picture before November. Allowing Trump to win guarantees that the genocide continues and even grows. Biden, at least, is reasonable and not bloodthirsty. Work with the system so that you can change it. Because the alternative is to burn us all down for your own hubris and lack of awareness.

aberrate_junior_beatnik,

Allowing Trump to win guarantees that the genocide continues and even grows.

Allowing Biden to win guarantees that the genocide continues and even grows.

Biden, at least, is reasonable and not bloodthirsty.

“Reasonable and not bloodthirsty”: expediting military aid to help the slaughter of children.

Work with the system so that you can change it.

Nothing I am doing is outside the system, and voting for Biden won’t help change the system.

I hope you gain the knowledge to see the bigger picture before November… Because the alternative is to burn us all down for your own hubris and lack of awareness.

Hubris is thinking that because other people disagree with you they must be ignorant and lack awareness. Hubris is thinking that if other people act differently from you, we will all burn down.

v_krishna,
@v_krishna@lemmy.ml avatar

Just a heads up that site picked the wrong district for me. The actual house site understands my zip is split between two districts (based on county lines) but this site picked the wrong one.

RampantDoubleHelix,

Bullshit. Democrats have made their disdain for democracy absolutely clear by preventing other candidates from even getting on the ballot in the primaries. I’m not defending Trump, but if Biden loses, he has only himself and the other ghouls in the Democratic party to blame. You can’t run on protecting democracy while simultaneously sabotaging it.

It’s not on the voters to hold their noses and vote for someone who should probably be in a nursing home and very likely won’t live long enough to finish his second term. It’s on the Democratic party to allow candidates people want to vote for to participate. All this blaming of voters for wanting to sit this one out or vote third party is just so much bootlicking of the establishment.

jaxxed,

If you deny people their right to expect their politicians to deliver what they want, then you will lose them. Yes Trump is a serious risk, but Biden could easily listen to the people, and deliver what they want. There are so many things he could do. There are things he is doing, but people are allowed to expect more.

Politicians need to meet the needs of the people. Why is it always expected that people meet the needs of the politicians in order to prevent catastrophe, without getting what they need.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Thank you. We need to pressure Biden so he starts changing his policy instead of trying to get people to compromise with it.

markon,

This election is easy. Vote blue because the only other viable party is straight up fascist and don’t even want another election (because they’d keep losing). So I’ll vote for a blue rock if it’s a vote against the people saying they wanna take us back to the stone ages with a touch of Nazi Germany with a sprinkle of Italian fascism on top, and don’t forget the good old American fascism. Comes in 5 great new flavors!

Linkerbaan, (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Vote blue if Biden stops the Genocide and fixes the issue. Else vote third party.

Crow_Thief,

Fuck that, I dont vote for genociders. If trump was actually more fascist than Biden is, why didnt he do it the first time?

olivebranch,

Honestly NATO should be disbanded. If there is no Soviet Union, there should be no NATO. Most of the wars in the World right know are fought by NATO countries. You can vote for whoever you want, but I really think the focused should be on getting Biden and Trump not to be candidates anymore, then focusing on the fight between the two. They have a lot more similarities with each other, then between us and them.

Blackmist,

No, I’m English. We’ve got our own horrible cunts to vote out.

DragonTypeWyvern, (edited )

Wow, so much for the special relationship, won’t even come over to vote in our elections 😒

drathvedro,

N…yet. Despite some of the claims, we, Russians, don’t participate in foreign elections.

That said, the existence of the state of Israel is entirely because of the US support. One could say, it’s a US-orchestrated proxy war against the Arab league. The ongoing genocide is on you guys (yes, you too can throw bricks at me for the Ukraine war). But, on the other hand, without the US support, Israel is likely going to fail, and Arabs are definitely going to return the favor, causing even bigger genocide, and disdain from millions of Jews, most of which are in the US. It’s a lose-lose situation. I don’t see any reason why Trump, being the racist that he is, would drop the US’s base of operations within middle east either.

So, vote Biden, I guess, he’s a two faced fuck but at least he’s not actively malicious or trying to turn the US into an authoritarian state (trust me, that’d suck).

Leate_Wonceslace, (edited )
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Israel’s modern inception was orchestrated primarily by Britain and the evidence for Russia’s interference in foreign democracies is overwhelming. Furthermore, the idea of it being a proxy war strikes me as entirely unfounded.

Note: I’m not defending US support of Israel or the actions of Israel itself, just critiquing the ancillary claims being made here.

drathvedro,

the idea of it being a proxy war strikes me as entirely unfounded

I might have chosen the wrong wording here. I stand corrected, that one is indeed quite a stretch, though definitely a point I heard many times before as the US government is by far the most major contributor to what’s been happening there.

Russia’s interference in foreign democracies is overwhelming

Guess the joke didn’t land well. What I’m conveying is that I’m just a regular dude laying my perspective as a foreigner, unlike state trolls who would’ve pretended to be US citizens to shill for someone. And my homecountry is a literal fascist state at this point, so… yes, that’s what those tend to do.

It’s almost a sunrise in here so I’m just rambling at this point. But the point is - you’ve got two turds to choose from and it’s fucked either way, but it’s one turd more than in authoritarian countries and those suck MUCH more. So, prefer ones that at least don’t reduce that amount.

zerog_bandit,

Fantasizing about exterminating Israel

zerog_bandit,

deleted_by_moderator

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  • Leate_Wonceslace,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    What the actual fuck is wrong with you.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    I doubt there will be a genocide of the Jews when America finally loses the ability to support the settlers. Jews, Christians and Muslims didn’t have an issue coexisting under ottoman rule. It was specifically British divide and conquer tactics and the creation of an artificial settler ethnostate which has caused this current situation.

    I’m sure there will still be violence, but nothing like what we see now, with American intel and weapons used to place PGMs right in the middle of refugee camps.

    lemmylem, (edited )

    Instead of making these two idiots our only options, why don’t we vote for other people instead?

    Cryophilia,

    Because that’s not how it works. First past the post means there’s only ever 2 parties.

    You want to change that, cool, but you have to change it first before you can realistically vote 3rd party in a presidential election.

    And since presidential elections are determined state by state, you have to change the first past the post system state by state. Maine and Nebraska (iirc) have proportional representatives, so that’s 2 down, 48 to go.

    olivebranch,

    Since the state will never change that alone, people should organize to vote for third party themselves. If the poll says that most people will vote for a specific third party if they come up as a majority, then there is no risk in throwing your vote away.

    My point is, I guess, organize elections without support from the state. The elections where you show who you would really vote for or the law or the system you would really vote for, without any obligations. Then when peoples choice is clearly seen, you can have courage to actually vote for what the most people believe in.

    Cryophilia,

    If the poll says that most people will vote for a specific third party if they come up as a majority

    Then by definition they’re no longer a third party.

    In any case, we already have these polls. The truth is that most people are moderates. Far leftism is not as popular as you think/hope it is.

    olivebranch,

    Yes, nobody is advocating for third party to be always in power, since obviously then they are not a third party anymore. It just like no one is advocating for opposition to the government to always be in power, because that makes no sense, but the change of government and voting for that opposition does make sense.

    It would be better for people to choose moderates then these people we have now. I am sure majority of people don’t support genocide in Gaza. But if people don’t understand that voting for third party is necessary, we should work on that, we shouldn’t give up.

    Cryophilia,

    I am sure majority of people don’t support genocide in Gaza.

    And why is that?

    It’s pretty close to 50/50: apnews.com/…/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-g…

    Leftism is a bubble. It’s not reflective of the majority.

    UnderpantsWeevil,