specseaweed,

These people sound like exact copies of the people saying voting in 2000 didn’t matter, and that turned out to be the most politically consequential of my lifetime. Gore was imperfect as they all are, but holy fuck did Dubya fuck up literally everything he touched.

Among many, many, many things, Dubya started forever wars killing untold hundreds of thousands of people. He accelerated oil and gas production, absolutely setting the Climate Change world on a pace for disaster. He seated Alito, unquestionably the biggest monster currently on the Supreme Court. And he passed a monster tax cut for the rich that set us on this path of unrestrained deficit spending.

And that’s just the headlines. Remember when he tried to put his personal lawyer on the Supreme Court? lol

Gen X already tried this 25 years ago and it fucked the world up so badly that we need to be saved by the future generations. Imagine not learning that lesson and doing it again.

TokenBoomer,

True story. If Gen X didn’t vote they literally died. /s

specseaweed,

Be boring somewhere else.

TokenBoomer,

Sorry, just trying to add some levity.

NegativeInf,

I always wonder how Gore might have acted in response to 9/11.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I always wonder how Gore might have acted in response to 9/11.

Gore would have read the fucking memo.

Zorque,

Based on after-the-fact reports, it may never have happened.

Maybe that's just exposure to all the conspiracy theories, though, I dunno if he would have acted any differently than Bush did to the intelligence reports.

homesweethomeMrL,

After 9/11, the U.S. Got Almost Everything Wrong

It would have been very different.

Zorque,

I meant before 9/11, sorry for not making that clear :)

tacosanonymous,

They had intelligence that terrorists from Al-Queda were training and planning for an attack, hijacking commercial planes.

Bush et al did next to nothing with that intel, at best.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Probably a similar initial response, but no Iraq War two years later. Which would make a... massive (and positive, in case that wasn't clear) change in the direction and concerns of American foreign policy.

Diplomjodler,

He wouldn’t have suspended civil rights, permitted torture and made a mockery of the rule of law.

GBU_28,

We think that yes. I’m a gore fan.

But remember there were 100s of people driving towards those topics. Career defense and security types making their damnedest case that they needed those tools to avoid 9/11 2.0.

I hope gore, and the staff he surrounded himself with would have had the vision to avoid all that, despite the pressure.

randon31415,
anarchy79,
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

Never forget. If you want an even crazier mindfuck, watch the original “Utopia”, the original 2013 British version. For real.

PhlubbaDubba,

It’s questionable if it’d have even happened had gore been at the desk, y’know, because he’d have probably actually read the imminent attack report about the plot before it happened.

anarchy79,
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

True dat. He wasn’t part of the cabal. That’s also why he wasn’t elected, in spite of winning. Just like Hillary.

AlexWIWA,

W was catastrophic. Honestly him and Reagan are the cause of most of our issues.

Okokimup,
@Okokimup@lemmy.world avatar

Nixon deserves a mention there too.

Lauchs,

Nixon is inadvertently responsible for the creation of the right wing media circus which I would argue is fully responsible for W and trump.

NABDad,

If you’re going to mention Nixon, then you have to include Andrew Johnson.

vaultdweller013,

Y’all are also forgetting Wilson.

AlexWIWA,

True. I only forget about him because his damage got limited by him getting fired

Resonosity,

Nixon had some redeeming qualities, like enacting the EPA and Clear Water/Air acts

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

These people sound like exact copies of the people saying voting in 2000 didn’t matter, and that turned out to be the most politically consequential of my lifetime. Gore was imperfect as they all are, but holy fuck did Dubya fuck up literally everything he touched.

That's not the fault of the people who voted Nader, though. Gore won that election, even with the people who voted for the seatbelt guy. A bias and compromised Supreme Court gave the office to the guy who got less votes. If no body voted green at all in 2000 it wouldn't have made the Federalist Society plants any less corrupt.

fidodo,

Man, what I would do to have an unabashed giant nerd for president. I forget what people’s issue with Gore even was.

thallamabond,

Al Gore won the popular vote, but there was some sketchiness down in Florida. During a recount, Roger Stone rallied the troops (Brooks Brothers riot) which caused the counting to be stopped, due to threats of violence. Setting up the supreme Court to decide Bush won Florida.

newthrowaway20,

Damn that sounds really really familiar. Almost like it happened just a couple years ago.

grue,

During a recount, Roger Stone rallied the troops (Brooks Brothers riot) which caused the counting to be stopped, due to threats of violence.

In other words, the 2000 coup succeeded.

Zipitydew,

It’s why they project so hard about Democrats cheating elections.

The Republicans have been for decades. And can’t stand sometimes enough people show up that they still lose.

Krauerking,

LOL yep. Constantly the conservatives manage to take their own manufactured outrage turn it into violence and then turn out the results they want.

Apparently burning down the Reichstag still works if you have the power to seize the moment.

lingh0e,

I, personally sat out that election because I didn’t like Al’s wife, Tipper Gore. She led the charge in a bunch of manufactured outrage about obscenity in music. I was also a jaded, cynical gen-xer who’d been hearing the importance of voting as long as I could remember, but every election was just choosing between a douchbag and a turd sandwich.

Looking back on everything that happened after that election, it’s insane to imagine how different things would be now if Gore had been in office instead of the criminal enterprise that we ended up with.

Buddahriffic,

Though the Bush presidency lead to Cheney’s wife taking up that mantle anyways.

PhlubbaDubba,

Gore was the watershed moment of the white left deciding no progress is allowed to happen unless it’s by their hands and they get all the credit.

Nader fired up his campaign in swing states as an act of retaliation against Gore posing himself as the climate candidate.

That’s it.

The Greens had a meltdown that the thing that usually happens to third parties in this country, that is having their platforms become the mainstream if they make enough noise, was happening to them, and they decided we’re not allowed to make any progress on climate unless we do it through them so fuck Gore and fuck anyone who’d dare support that disgusting “mOdErAtE!”

Krauerking,

You think you might be projecting just a little bit of internalized anger there?

Ensign_Crab,

He hates anyone to his left. And only his left.

Jessica,

Don’t forget in his first week or so he passed No Child Left Behind, which has irreparably damaged the education of children in this country.

epi.org/…/what_went_wrong_with_no_child_left_behi…

VonCesaw,

He literally lost the popular vote, how does “vote more” mean anything

PhlubbaDubba,

Protest voters who supported Stein alone would have flipped every single rust belt state had they decided on the country over feeling validated in wanting to vote “for” someone, and Zoomers and Millenials simply matching their share of the population in turnout could have propelled Bernie to the front of the primaries and over the finish line.

Nevermind how not voting let trump happen, not voting let clinton happen.

ed_cock,

What really gets my goat is how some people now act like George W Bush is this respectable elder statesman that only did his best and oh, how cute, he’s friends with Michelle Obama. Like, sure, next to Trump he looks like a political savant, but come on, he still was a total piece of shit that did lasting damage.

HipHoboHarold,

I just can’t wait for those of us in the queer community to either be thrown in camps or flee the company, all so that the people who didn’t vote can tell me it’s actually because of Biden.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I have a queer daughter and these people who say you shouldn’t vote for Biden (but they’re not saying Trump should win!) scare me.

S_204,

Queer people keep telling me Palestine is a nice place, maybe that’s a better option than America?

S/

lone_faerie,

As a trans person, it’s been so upsetting how quickly the people who claim to support you just ignore the looming danger. They don’t want to vote for Biden because he supports a genocide while ignoring the genocide that’s about to happen in our own country.

TokenBoomer, (edited )

How is a trans person in America more important than a Palestinian?

GilgameshCatBeard, (edited )

I’d be willing to bet that not too long ago, you couldn’t point to Palestine on a map, could you? I’ll bet you had NO IDEA there was even a conflict brewing there.

And dollars to donuts- you had to have the entire thing explained to you several times before you chose your side.

TokenBoomer,

Dollars to donuts 🍩 I’d bet you’re nuttier than a squirrel turd. 💩

GilgameshCatBeard,

Interesting.

TokenBoomer,
GilgameshCatBeard,

Going to block you now. You’re a useless human being.

TokenBoomer,
SeducingCamel,

This comment smells like projection

GilgameshCatBeard,

And yours smells like you have nothing to offer to the discussion.

lone_faerie,

Where did I say that? Nobody’s free until everybody’s free. The genocide in Palestine is obviously abhorrent, I don’t want it happening here too

TokenBoomer,
HipHoboHarold,

One person vs a group? You have an argument. But how are you gonna complain about one genocide while openly admitting to being OK with another?

TokenBoomer,

There IS no current trans genocide. There IS a current genocide in Gaza. Speculating in hypotheticals is folly.

TheBat,
@TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

Dipshit af username checks out

TokenBoomer,

Well that was helpful.

Devorlon,

Biden gets in:

  • Palestinian genocide continues
  • Trans rights continue

Trump gets in:

  • Palestinian genocide continues
  • Trans rights eroded

Which would you prefer?

TokenBoomer,

You can see the future?

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9c810072-efb4-4142-900e-02346963a660.jpeg

You should play the lottery.

Isakk86,

What’s really terrifying, is that history repeats itself. The Weimar Republic of the 1920’s was supportive of trans Rights as well, like America currently, it had the first trans health center, including the first governmental support for trans people Transvestitenschein

Then someone who had a huge gang of violent thugs took over power and all his enemies ended up dead or locked up.

You know those, “if you could go back and shoot Hitler before he came to power” thought experiments? But I would never condone violence…

anarchy79,
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

I would. I have thought about doing it myself so many times. The logistics of it though, I can’t. I’m not the Jackal.

assassin_aragorn,

EXACTLY.

Yes, I get it, things are shit. Innocent people and children are dying. You can and should be upset about that. But we don’t have the luxury of taking our ball and going home. Even more people are going to get hurt if Biden doesn’t win.

It’s a myth that there isn’t anything to vote for, only against. We have LGBT rights to vote for. Minority rights. Protecting vulnerable Americans. Stopping fascism.

Let my future kids and their kids call me a genocide supporters for voting for Biden. As long as they can identify as who they want and love who they want without any persecution, I’ll accept the condemnation.

TokenBoomer,

Genocide is okay as long as it happens somewhere else. AmIRite?

assassin_aragorn,

Not in the slightest. But allowing more genocides to grow and occur throughout the world because you’re angry about one genocide in particular is absurd.

We can’t save everyone, and we have to accept that. That doesn’t mean we can’t try to save as many people as possible, however.

TokenBoomer,

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Matthew 26:52

assassin_aragorn,
  1. I’m not religious. I just play one to fuck with evangelicals.
  2. There’s a great TikTok meme where Peter takes “you are my rock” to mean “be Dwayne the Rock and crush your enemies”
  3. If I can save people by taking up the sword, then I accept perishing by it as penance.
TokenBoomer,

Rather, evil is perpetuated when immoral principles become normalized over time by people who do not think about things from the standpoint of others. Evil becomes commonplace; it becomes the everyday. Ordinary people — going about their everyday lives — become complicit actors in systems that perpetuate evil. Source

Adramis,

For real - we’ve got youth bans all over the place, just got an adult effective ban in Ohio, with more and more states making existing as trans in public a jail-able offense, but GeNoCiDe JoE

Especially frustrating when it’s coming literally from a trans person. In a high-risk state. It boggles the mind.

SeducingCamel,

Roe got overturned with Biden in office, you really think your rights are safe with him in office? The SC will still be corrupt. The state you live in seems far more important

lone_faerie,

You should read up on Project 2025. Yes my rights are safer with Biden than with orange Hitler

JasonDJ, (edited )

I try to think that hopefully Trump would get stonewalled enough that he wouldn’t be able to get any of this done.

Then I realize that he seriously does not care. He doesn’t give a shit about Congress, or checks and balances. He and his party have clearly demonstrated that they have no interest in the system of “law and order” that they cling so close to.

Who’s gonna stop him? His courts? An impeachment? Antifa gonna go out and storm Pennsylvania Ave and live up to their damn name, which somehow became an insult?

The fact that this man is on a ballot in any state is shameful. The GOP of just a dozen fucking years ago would have tossed him out on his ass in a second. Somehow since then, Romney, McCain, and Liz Cheney have become the sole voices of reason within the party. One got blackballed, one got censured, and the other one died.

lingh0e,

I try to think that hopefully Trump would get stonewalled enough that he wouldn’t be able to get any of this done.

Then I realize that he seriously does not care. He doesn’t give a shit about Congress, or checks and balances. He and his party have clearly demonstrated that they have no interest in the system of “law and order” that they cling so close to.

This cannot be understated enough. He will be a day one dictator. Then he’ll be a day two dictator, and day three and four. He won’t stop because he knows no one will stop him.

JasonDJ,

I think the most dissappointing is the current state of the Republican Party.

Seems like back in 2008, the Republican Party was a bit stubborn and stuck in the old days, but they were mostly harmless, like a grandpa who rattles his cane at “kids these days”. Endearing, but not crazy.

Then everything changed. They’ve gone full tilt crazy. They’ve actually managed to redeem 43 and make him look tame and competent (by comparison).

The nutter in me (what’s left of it, after /r/conspiracy got a cheeto mustache) is seriously starting to think that Reddits admiration of Ron Paul (that I very much got caught up in) was a practice run for some psyop astroturf shit that evolved into Trumps presidency.

Krauerking,

I think they only get seen as harmless because they only had to perform small acts of violence to get their desired outcomes. They invaded a hotel to spy on their opponents, allied with people that murdered journalists and even in 2000 organized riots outside vote counting centers that gave fear of violence against arbiters of democracy. We cared a lot about the little things so they didn’t have to do as much.

But the world is more chaotic now and the big violent movements get way more sway and leaves even more room for bigger grabs of power. It’s just a progressing issue that came from us tolerating anything to keep status quo and let people make even more money regardless of how.

JasonDJ,

Did you hear of the robocalls in NH? Using a deepfaked Biden voice and the spoofed caller ID if someone from the state DNC, telling Democrats to “save their vote for November”?

Disgusting. And I wouldn’t be surprised if it played a hand in Haley’s surprisingly small loss in NH as undeclared voters are able to request either ballot.

Krauerking,

Woah what the hell? No! I didn’t know about that!

What a weird concept. I’m not even entirely sure the desired outcome other than to see if it works and if they (the people doing this) could get away with it. I feel that it definitely sets dangerous precedent and makes it even muddier to have a well informed voter base.

You are thinking that people that would have voted for Biden then used their primary vote to go for Nikki Haley though?

JasonDJ, (edited )

No sense voting for Biden. He’s pretty much locked as the DNC candidate, the primary is really a formality (as often as it seems to be now).

No, NH has an open primary. Any undeclared voter can register for one party for the day to cast a primary ballot.

A lot of independents are undecided in these situations, since they can vote in either primary. Their vote is actually kind of especially powerful, since in this case they can use it to vote against someone in particular.

I live in MA which does the same. I am very left leaning but emphatically selected a republican ballot for the primaries.

Edit to add: this is also why Trumpists are lashing out against her, specifically in NH…they can’t fathom that voters can be independent. You’re either a modern republican or a librul.

What was it they used to say? Country before party? Facts not feelings? Law and order? Literally all of this shit is practically Orwellian. Ironically they really latch onto the “Ignorance is Strength” part.

DirkMcCallahan,

There are legitimate criticisms to be had of Biden, but in every case, Trump is unambiguously worse. If Trump were pro-Palestine, I could maybe understand single-issue voters preferring him to Biden…but he’s not.

To be honest, I have little hope for 2024. Genuine fake news is rampant, and in pretty much every case it hurts Biden (misinformation about the economy, etc.). I’ll be voting a straight Dem ticket in my very red state, and hoping against all hope that uninformed voters somehow do the right thing.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

no one is saying they’re going to vote for trump. they’re saying they won’t vote for biden

originalfrozenbanana,

Fascinating

doggle,

The end result is the same.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

no, it’s not.

Krauerking,

I mean it practically is. The happy pain supporters will still show up to dish out their warped idea of hateful justice.

If water was flooding into your house and you said you won’t bother to turn the water main off because the roof is failing you still end up with a flooded house.

The incident is happening whether or not you participate in it. The best you can do is push against it even if it’s tiring and doesn’t fix all things. And unless you are ending your own existence then you will be around to experience the fallout.

Self inflicted pain still hurts even if you think it’s deserved. I know it’s rough but the world keeps spinning without your input. Fate is for those that do not act.

RedditWanderer,

Lmao, that’s the epitome of something that sounds smart but is incredibly stupid when you think about it. Especially in response to this meme.

In FPTP not voting for the chosen democratic representative means one vote less is required for the conservative. It doesn’t matter if that’s because you added a vote for Democrats, or didn’t vote at all. Same for voting 3rd party, it just ensures you get the candidate you want the least.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

that the epitome of something that sounds smart but is incredibly stupid

I voted for Howie in 2020 and Biden won. you don’t seem to know how voting works.

RedditWanderer,

You don’t seem to know what anecdotal evidence or statistical analysis works.

Biden barely won, and you didn’t get the candidate you wanted. In 2016, it’s people like you who gave trump the victory

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

Same for voting 3rd party, it just ensures you get the candidate you want the least.

this claim is obviously false, since I have provided proof against it. if you want to weaken the claim, moving the goalposts, that’s fine, but don’t break a sweat.

astral_avocado,

Are you 12

RedditWanderer,

Not sure if you’re just being intentionally thick or a troll.

Youre explaining yourself that despite you voting against him, Biden won, and you didn’t want Trump and the person you voted for didn’t win. So your actions gave you the least chance of having a candidate you were aligned with.

If anything, you are giving proof that it’s a dumb thing to do. But that would be anecdotal evidence, and there’s no need for that.

If you manually run the results and the effects of 3rd parties, it’s pretty clear that it makes no sense in First Past the Post.

It’s a thing known as The spoiler effect, or vote splitting and has always been a documented thing that dumb people don’t understand. Who do you think funds these 3rd parties in the first place…

Youre being played.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

So your actions gave you the least chance of having a candidate you were aligned with.

i was aligned with the candidate for whom i voted, and i was not aligned with the candidates i voted against.

RedditWanderer,

In 2016, everyone who voted 3rd party got Trump, the candidate they wanted the least.

In 2020, everyone who voted 3rd party was either going to get Biden, (the candidate they are moderately aligned with), or Trump, the candidate they were least aligned with.

In both cases, people who voted 3rd party made their chances worse. If you want more parties, the laws needs to change first, or else you’re just wasting your vote and giving it to conservatives, who benefit from your 3rd party vote the most. You may not like it, but you are playing for Conservatives in the political game, and that goes for people who don’t vote too.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

2016, everyone who voted 3rd party got Trump

everyone who voted for hilary got trump, too

RedditWanderer,

deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    implying I’m stupid is just ad hominem.

    RedditWanderer,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    you are assuming I don’t understand them. you are just calling me stupid without consider8that I might disagree.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    you’re just wasting your vote and giving it to conservatives,

    no, i’m giving it to leftists.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Why bother voting at all? What difference does your non-Democrat, non-Republican vote make? If you really feel the need to be self-righteous about it, save yourself the energy, stay home, and just tell people you voted for Cornel West or whoever. They’ll never know otherwise.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    why are you trying to suppress voter turnout?

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m not trying to suppress anything. It was a question. Again: Why are you expending the energy to vote if you know your candidate won’t win?

    You haven’t answered it. Will you?

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    you will forgive me if I don’t believe you are “just asking questions”. it feels like sealioning to me. and I read the repetition and demand for an answer as petulance.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    And I read your refusal to answer such a simple question as proving you can’t actually back up your reason for voting at all. But sure, personal attacks might convince everyone that your avoidance of the question is actually proof of your righteousness. Let’s see how that goes.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    I made no personal attacks.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    it feels like sealioning to me

    Personal attack.

    and I read the repetition and demand for an answer as petulance.

    Personal attack.

    Anything else you want to lie about or are you going to answer my question?

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m sharing my feelings.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    How nice of you to share your feelings in the form of personal attacks. Now please answer my question.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    at this point I think it’s pretty obvious that you’re being petulant.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    At this point, I think it’s pretty obvious you’re hiding your refusal to justify your position behind personal attacks.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    you seem pretty worked up about what a stranger on the Internet thinks. maybe you need a break.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Another personal attack. You just can’t justify why you are voting for a candidate who won’t win instead of not voting at all. I mean I can easily justify my vote. Ask me to and I will. After you answer my question.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    personal attacks are expressly prohibited in this community and on lemme.world.

    if you think that my therapy session friendly language is a personal attack, you should report it. if you think it’s that toxic you shouldn’t engage with it. a quick flip through my history you will find people literally calling me names. I don’t call them out for it I just hit the report button.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s nice. Are you going to answer my question?

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    if i’m just too thick to understand, a big big dummy, then you better make sure the vote isn’t split: vote with me.

    RedditWanderer,

    I’ll vote 3rd party when they legally and statistically have as much chance to win as the others, which doesn’t work in First Past The Post.

    First they need to change the voting system, then it will be advantageous for me to vote for someone else. Until then my vote is too important to throw away

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ll vote for Democrats when they support my politics.

    TheBat,
    @TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

    Cool. Keep playing purity politics and let the world go to hell in a handbasket.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    it’s not about purity.

    ToastedPlanet,

    What else is it about then? Trump will enable more genocides not less. Not getting your hands dirty seems to be the motivation I’ve seen among people who espouse this view point.

    But you will get you’re hands dirty if you don’t vote in the election where fascists are trying to overthrow our democracy.

    TheBat,
    @TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

    My brother in Christ, as far as number of voters are considered, your vote is causing the split. You’re in a minority which is enabling GOP by taking away votes from DNC.

    Idiot.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    people who voted for Trump gave him the victory. 50 years of people like Joe biden running the Democrat party gave Trump the victory. don’t blame me.

    RedditWanderer,

    But they’ve been running the conservative party the same way for 50 years too. You’re literally admitting to hate Biden so much you let the conservatives win even if that meant making the US worse.

    Literally what the meme is about. Tell us, what have you gained from it aside from more frustration and hate? Biden didnt learn anything from 2016. You can blame biden when you lose your democracy, but you’ll still have lost your democracy. I wouldn’t wait for Biden to fix that. The democratic party is more than one person making decisions, and handing the power to your enemy is not how you make changes within your own team.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    The democratic party is more than one person making decisions, and handing the power to your enemy is not how you make changes within your own team.

    the democrats aren’t my team.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    You’re literally admitting to hate Biden so much you let the conservatives win even if that meant making the US worse.

    no, i’m not

    The_Lopen,

    Yeah and we could find one person who voted for vermin supreme, Biden still won. What would their point be if they were here, I wonder? Speaking of points, what’s yours?

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    Speaking of points, what’s yours?

    no one is saying they’re going to vote for trump. they’re saying they won’t vote for biden

    astral_avocado, (edited )

    Therefore Trump wins. Abstaining is still an action, and still has an effect as much as you want to be above it all on your moral high horse.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    I expect to have more choices on my ballot

    astral_avocado,

    I wish we had more choices, but I’m smart enough to not expect it out of our broken democracy.

    dragonflyteaparty,

    So is it just sheer stubbornness or do you not care about making the country worse by insisting on splitting the vote?

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    i only vote for people i want to win. if you vote for anyone regardless of whether you want them to win, then i’d say it’s you who is splitting the vote by not voting with the people who have principles.

    Krauerking,

    Oh man give me Vermin Supreme. I think he could make a real difference.

    Resonosity,

    I agree with this. Choosing a lesser evil in a FPTP, bicameral political system is not the answer. Pushing for ranked choice voting is the answer, and one step towards proportional representation like what we see in the EU.

    And not voting is never the answer.

    theodewere,
    theodewere avatar

    they don't give a shit if it makes any sense, they're all running from reality

    Nobody,

    Don’t forget the Deportation Force that’s going to round up 11 million people and deport them. I wish I was joking.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    And by deport they probably mean throw in concentration camps and then murder en masse.

    If that happens, I wonder what the Mexican government and the cartels would say.

    norbert,
    norbert avatar

    The Mexican government would be quite vocally mad and file lawsuits but nothing would really come of it.

    The cartels wouldn't care as long as the flow of guns and money from the north didn't stop.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    That is dark as fuck.

    Esqplorer,

    Okay, you’re willfully obtuse or have no reading comprehension. McConnell’s position was discussed in the article as well. I thought Graham 's position statement was a better articulation of the point.

    If you really need an article explaining this more clearly, you’re lost.

    umbrella, (edited )
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    those things are bound to happen anyway regardless of the clown you guys elected.

    ukraine is already abandoned, too, under the flag of a democrat you voted in.

    voting doesnt work because we vote then go right back to doing absolutely nothing

    licherally,

    I’m getting so many messages from people about how immature and impractical it is to be wary of voting for Biden just because he isn’t trump, it’s absurd.

    Biden is probably as bad as trump in very different ways, but dipshit liberals would have you believe that it is your patriotic duty to vote with them, otherwise you give a vote to trump when you refuse to vote.

    With that being said, please vote in your local elections and for pretty much everything else. As liberals seem to forget, the president is mostly just a figurehead, but your senators, representatives, congressmen, etc mean much more and affect your life more significantly.

    lingh0e,

    Biden is probably as bad as trump in very different ways…

    “probably”?

    So, you don’t have a basis for comparison, but you feel like it’s probably true?

    Can you articulate your reasoning a little better?

    licherally,

    Yes. I do have a basis for comparison, and I’m happy to provide my thinking.

    Biden is currently supporting a genocide in Palestine and a bombing campaign in Yemen. There is a strong islamophobic slant in the current cabinet.

    Biden is a career politician. He knows precisely what he needs to publicize and what he needs to bury. He also generally has more social capital in government.

    Trump is a racist and a fascist, but most people in government also think he’s a fucking moron. He also literally cannot keep a single thing a secret. He also would likely support the same genocide and bombing campaign that Biden is currently enacting.

    Trump is worse in the sense that his beliefs and followers hold a collective single braincell, and that braincell is focused on being racist and generally bigoted. But with that said, there is no real way that he can remove the term limit for the presidency. It’s just not really within his power.

    Biden is worse in the sense that he has spent an entire career smoothly enacting imperialist policies, some of which were also pretty racist and bigoted. But he also knows what to say and what to do to make people forget about them, not to mention that both of them are old as fuck and show signs of actual senility.

    Ultimately I guess Biden is less terrifying for us in the United States, but unfortunately this election doesn’t just affect the United States.

    I guess it’s easy for people to forget about the cost of removing our troops in Afghanistan the way that we did, and how we judge Obama so harshly for the drone strikes that Biden is doing now in larger numbers.

    I do want to say that Biden has done some good things. The student loan forgiveness is not at the level that was promised during his previous campaign, but it is relieving the financial burden for many people. He also stopped the construction of the keystone pipeline which is obviously a win for climate change activists all over. And yes, he did remove the troops from Afghanistan which needed to happen twenty+ years ago, even if maybe it could have been done in a better way so as to not leave a huge power vacuum. But trump also did a few good things in his presidency.

    His tax tariffs were very effective, the COVID support plan and operation light speed were both very effective and helped millions of Americans through a pandemic. He also accidentally bolstered the strength and support of Obamacare. Not really his intention, but I still consider it a positive.

    I want to clarify that I am a leftist, I do not in any way support trump. I will not be voting for trump at all. My reason for thinking through all of this is to say whether I want Biden to win at all, or if I will just vote on everything but the president.

    lingh0e,

    I appreciate the thoughtful response, but it sounds like your initial premise of “biden is probably as bad as Trump” is based on pretty shakey logic. Biden may be a career politician, but he’s still better than Trump in every conceivable metric.

    dangblingus,

    “Probably as bad as Trump in very different ways” Such as? Like, this is such weak piss argument. Either Biden wins or Trump wins. That’s how FPTP electoral systems operate. Telling people that it’s okay to abstain from voting for the POTUS is literally going to hand Trump the presidency. Also, reading Project 2025 should terrify the shit out of you. Trump won’t be “just a figurehead” if he wins.

    licherally,

    The president is a figurehead regardless of who is in office. But I do understand what you’re saying. You’re welcome to read my long reply to the other person who asked the same question in a much more polite way.

    Count042,

    Foreign policy, so far.

    To be fair, that “so far” is doing some heavy lifting.

    Going solely on their current records, Biden’s foreign policy is worse.

    You know what is handing Trump a victory? When Biden backs a genocidal war against a population that a group in the mid-west swing states identifies with and is a necessary component of any Democratic win. Not a single one of us here has anything to do with that, and only the Biden administration owns the responsibility for that.

    Also, we’re still in the primary stage. We don’t have to go down with Biden sinking the ship.

    dangblingus,

    Unless you guys are ready to have the revolution today, you need to vote Biden if you don’t want Trump to win. Period.

    MelonTheMan,

    if we all write in “revolution” then trump can’t win!

    hglman,

    That seems good , burn his shit down. However, i think Biden is who needs to win if you want a revolution. Trump will just normalize the removal of democracy, the system will accept it and dissent will be crushed. Biden winning will force the republicans to do something clearly outside of the game and splinter the powers of the state.

    electric_nan,

    The Democratic party when it absolutely refuses to appeal to anyone, but feels entitled to their votes anyway:

    SwingingTheLamp,

    It’s like they’re saying, “If you don’t vote for us because we shifted to the right, it’s your fault that we shifted to the right to get more votes on the right.”

    It seems like the party doesn’t refuse to appeal to certain voters…

    Aabbcc,

    If Biden is unelectable its the voters fault for not electing him anyway

    ToastedPlanet,

    Biden is electable. He won in 2020. If voters refuse to vote for him when the alternative is obviously a fascist, it is there fault.

    DAMunzy,

    You Liberals are so tiresome.

    ToastedPlanet,

    It’s funny how some people think everyone who stands up democracy is a liberal.

    DAMunzy,

    It’s a very Liberal take. So I called it out as Liberal.

    ToastedPlanet,

    It’s a pro-democracy take.

    bababooey,

    I agree, it should be illegal to criticize Biden in any way since he’s not Trump

    lingh0e,

    I don’t get it. Can you explain your humor?

    Fedizen,

    Identifying somebody as an asshole is the same as making criticism illegal in your mind?

    gatopeich,
    @gatopeich@lemmy.world avatar

    This kind of “argument” brought us down to the current disaster.

    ToastedPlanet,

    The Republican party brought us here. Hillary accelerated things with her awful campaign strategy of elevating Trump in the 2016 Republican primary, but we were heading in this direction since Regan. Neoliberals got us to the brink of fascism, but apathy will get us the rest of the way. The argument that we should vote for democracy and against fascism isn’t what got us here, in fact it is the only reliable way to get us out of this.

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