utopiah,

OP what’s the actual fediverse link? I want to Boost it on Mastodon but all I get is a link to a .jpeg

utopiah,

FWIW I know it’s from octodon.social/ but trying to search I can’t find the original post from 2022.

keithellison,

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khaliso,

I agree that there should definitely be safety regulations in place for ship recycling, but this guy is building a strawman argument and it really undermines his point in my view.

BothsidesistFraud, (edited )

I agree, machines do tons of dangerous and hard work people used to. Farm labor is the greatest example, it used to be backbreaking work for dozens of men and animals and now it’s one guy with a tractor or combine.

That we haven’t automated ALL hard work before we started on art isn’t a great argument IMO

Opafi,

Mentioned it in another comment already… People already do this with robotics and ai

www.leviathan.eu

suction,

Everything that can be digitalized, like words, music or pictures, will go through this enshittification process one day, be it by humans or by AI or both. It’s not good but at the same time it’s a great challenge for artists in these times to create experiences that cannot be digitalized, or displayed on a screen.

suction,

He’s right, why haven’t people started working on digitalized ship breaking…algorithms?

Cosmicomical,

Algorithms are fundamental for physical tasks as well. Robotics has been around for many decades, with some infrastructure and the right algos I’m sure it could be tackled, whatever ship breaking is.

suction,

Yeah maybe but that isn’t what he meant

Cosmicomical,

What did he mean? I understand his comment as meaning that algorithms can’t break ships, but in reality algorithms can be used to control robotics. I stand by my comment, even though algorithms can’t melt steel beams

suction,

He sounds like he was asking why people don’t start working on AI that can “break down ships” (or other industrial labor I guess), but rather work on AI that can mimic artists. He wants to spare people the dangerous and backbreaking work that still exists in the world with the use of AI. If he said “Robots” or “Machines” I wouldn’t mind it but this is another case of a stupid person thinking AI is almighty.

Opafi,

It already is

www.leviathan.eu

Cosmicomical,

I’ve been saying this ages. Thank you assholes for focusing on automating art and games like chess. What is the benefit for humanity? You just ruined my hobbies. Focus on automatic plumbers and farmers, for Thoth’s sake.

DriftinGrifter,

Robots cost a lot and most of all new advancements are spearheaded by the Foss comunity

Cosmicomical,

Robots used to cost a lot, but now technology is cheap and you can build a lot of stuff even at home and without a real workshop.

DriftinGrifter,

“Cheap” no one is ready topaya a 4th of a months salary to risk potentially just throwing away with no real benefit for oneself the upfront cost just isn’t worth it most of the time for the Foss comunity

Cosmicomical,

Ok i never said anything about the foss community and i was talking about the assholes that can afford to spend millions to train a model, like openai did starting wih gpt3

DriftinGrifter,

Right but at that point the projects where already underway and at the start openai also was open and relied partially on open source contributions

chumbalumber,

I can’t speak for art, but I think that engines certainly have their place in improving the way we play chess (and not just objectively, but in terms of human play too). Leela’s latest WDL (win/draw/loss) contempt is a really neat tool that looks for complexity in a position over objective ‘best’ moves, producing uniquely aggressive positions see this vid for an example implementation.

intensely_human,

This is one of the most interesting takes I’ve seen on AI.

Such a good point. We totally need robots to be the ones picking through piles of E-waste to get precious metals, not little kids.

Skullgrid,
@Skullgrid@lemmy.world avatar

Disappointed programmer here. I thought I could automate farming so that people wouldn’t die of hunger. Now I realise that if you automate farming, it would just make some CEO more money because his company now makes corn syrup and destroys rural communities even faster.

I got my “contract not renewed”, for the Fortune 500 B2B CRM company I worked for.

I can try to bust my ass to make my 2018 laptop try to render images I can’t draw, which does give me some pleasure. It’s not the AI tool’s fault humanity sucks, it’s the goddamn people with money.

theangryseal,

The world loves Michael Jackson and The Beatles. The problem is most of them died, but now we have Beatles Jackson. The fab 5. Billie Jean is not my Yellow Submarine! Featuring Kurt Cobain and Cab Calloway. The biggest hit of the year fellas, I’m telling you. Art is over. Art said god is dead. God is just being born!

Bow before your digital overlords!

I never even imagined a world where machines replace artists. Man.

ILikeBoobies,

People are cheaper than robots, ergo they are more expendable

fidodo,

I can assure you that the finest minds are not in ad tech.

keithellison,

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ALoafOfBread, (edited )
@ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml avatar

I get the sentiment, but that is a really dumb take. Software automation is a hell of a lot easier than creating robotic automation to disassemble ships of all shapes and sizes. That’s why art automation has been done, and industrial freighter recycling automation has not been.

How would that even be possible? Presumably, you’d need to break the ships down into pieces first, and even then, you’ll be dealing with huge numbers of oddly shaped and sized components of varying materials. It makes a lot more sense to have people do that, though it is likely very dangerous.

Seems more like a job for unions and workplace safety regulations than for robots

SlopppyEngineer, (edited )

more like a job for unions and workplace safety regulations

Yes. That’s why they do these things in third world countries. The people there are cheaper than robots will ever be.

A_Very_Big_Fan,

3th

threeth.

captain_aggravated,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

When teaching about programming languages that are zero indexed, I avoid the word “first” because it is ambiguous and instead use “zeroth” and “oneth.”

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I get the sentiment, but that is a really dumb take.

$13B invested in OpenAI feels more and more like malinvestment and graft, incentivized by our disastrous energy policy and enormous tech subsidies.

This isn’t purely software automation. Its also an investment in physical media and machines, new or renovated energy infrastructure, and enormous volumes of potable water.

Seems more like a job for unions and workplace safety regulations than for robots

The Role of AI in Union Busting: How Employers Use Artificial Intelligence to Keep Workers From Unionizing

In 2020, a leaked company memo detailed Amazon’s use of a new technology — the geoSPatial Operating Console (SPOC) — to analyze and visualize data sets pertaining to threats to the company, including unions. Reported by Jason Del Rey and Shirin Ghaffary at Vox, some of the data points related to unions include:


<span style="color:#323232;">Amazon-owned Whole Foods’ market activism and unionization efforts.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Flow patterns of union grant money.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">The presence of local union chapters and alt labor groups.
</span>

The approach is an obvious attempt by the company to use more passive means of identifying and neutralizing union sympathizers in the company.

“Amazon’s tracking of workers’ micro-movements, decision points and searches and then linking all of that data to that of unions, community groups and legislative policy campaigns is union busting on its face,” said Stuart Appelbaum, President of the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union (RWDSU) in a statement at the time.

ALoafOfBread,
@ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml avatar

That is very true, but my critique was more focused on the difference between automating software tasks vs mechanical tasks, especially with non-uniform inputs and not the economic investment required. Some tasks are better suited to automation - and plagiarizing art is far easier than deconstructing and recycling massive industrial freighters.

Not on the side of the AI art generators here - that was just low hanging fruit compared to something like was suggested in the original post. Definitely need extremely strong labor law to protect against AI union busting (and union busting generally)

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

my critique was more focused on the difference between automating software tasks vs mechanical tasks

Somewhat paradoxically, we’ve been much more successful automating mechanical tasks than digital ones. We’ve had steam looms and automotive assembly plants far longer than server farms and super computers.

And I might argue this kind of automation has been far more fruitful. I can point to a lot more in my daily life that has benefited from the industrialization of steel and plastic fabrication than what I’ve received from Google Search Results.

To say the millions of man-hours and trillions of dollars sunk into the advertisement and entertainment industries couldn’t be put to better use… Come on, man. The latest Marvel movie wasn’t so good that I wouldn’t have traded it for a globalized 1980s British NHS.

Ainiriand,

I think you absolutely nailed the analysis. Another small point to keep in mind is that for Microsoft, all the investment in OpenAi comes back as a revenue figure when the system works operating on top of the Azure platform.

Kichae,

Software automation being easier seems like a reason to not have so many people doing it, then? Like, the harder problem is the one that could really use all of the focus?

But the harder problems aren’t as obviously profitable for a large number of tech CEOs, and they’re not ripe for being a “winning glittery ticket” for a large number of comp sci students looking to be the next big thing in Silicon Valley.

kibiz0r,

OP: “We’ve tragically gone down a path of quantifying and min-maxing every aspect of existence, including creativity and the value of human life.”

Comments: “OP clearly doesn’t understand the comparative efficiency of the ROI here.”

yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Irony so thick you can cut it.

uranibaba,

He chose a poor way of conveying his message.

Tattorack,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

The robot dystopia will not be caused by evil AI enslaving humanity.

No matter how advanced or how self aware, AI will lack the ambition that is part of humanity, part of us due to our evolutionary history.

An AI will never have an opinion, only logical conclusions and directives that it is required to fulfil as efficiently as possible. The directives, however, are programmed by the humans who control these robots.

Humans DO have ambitions and opinions, and they have the ability to use AI to enslave other humans. Human history is filled with powerful, ambitious humans enslaving everyone else.

The robot dystopia is therefor a corporate dystopia.

I always roll my eyes when people invoke Skynet and Terminator whenever something uncanny is shown off. No, it’s not the machines I’m worried about.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

No matter how advanced or how self aware, AI will lack the ambition that is part of humanity, part of us due to our evolutionary history.

The ambition isn’t the issue. Its a question of power imbalance.

The Paperclip Maximizing Algorithm doesn’t have an innate desire to destroy the world, merely a mandate to turn everything into paperclips. And if the algorithm has enough resources at its disposal, it will pursue this quixotic campaign without regard for any kind of long term sensible result.

The robot dystopia is therefor a corporate dystopia.

There is some argument that one is a consequence of the other. It is, in some sense, the humans who are being programmed to maximize paperclips. The real Roko’s Basilisk isn’t some sinister robot brain, but a social mythology that leads us to work in the factors that make the paper clips, because we’ve convinced ourselves this will allow us to climb the Paperclip Company Corporate Ladder until we don’t have to make these damned things anymore.

psud,

Someone screwed up if a paperclip maximiser is given the equipment to take apart worlds, rather than a supply of spring steel

dwalin,

Thats the beauty of it. The maximizer would understand that creating a machine that breaks appart worlds would maximize the paperclip output. It will be a “natural” progression

Clubbing4198,

Have you met people with opinions? A lot of their opinions consist of preprogrammed responses that you could train a bot to regurgitate.

A_Very_Big_Fan,

We’re not even close to artificial general intelligence, so I’d like to see if you have anything to substantiate this claim.

(Not saying it’s far fetched, though, just that it seems silly to be so sure at this point in time.)

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