Defederation from Lemmygrad.ml

Hello World,

Today, after careful consideration and evaluation of recent events, we have decided to defederate from Lemmygrad.

Regrettably, we have observed a significant increase in hate speech and calls to violence originating from the Lemmygrad instance. Due to the severity of the posts and comments, we are not waiting for the next Lemmy update that will allow users to block instances.

At Lemmy.world, we have always strived to foster an inclusive and welcoming user environment. However, recent posts and comments from Lemmygrad have clearly violated our server rules and, more importantly, our core values. We firmly believe that hate speech and incitement of violence have no place in our community, regardless of personal beliefs or affiliations.

As always, we encourage all users to report any content they deem inappropriate or harmful. No matter one’s stance in any conflict, Lemmy.world will always take immediate action to remove and ban any posts or comments that incite violence or propagate hatred.

We encourage everyone to continue engaging in discussions within the boundaries of respect and understanding. As we move forward with this decision, we remain committed to providing all community members with a safe and welcoming space. We appreciate your continued support and cooperation in upholding our shared principles.

Thank you,

The Lemmy.World Team

psychothumbs,

I do not approve of this kind of itchy trigger finger to defederate. Hopefully this decision is reversed in time like the piracy one was.

TheSpookiestUser,
@TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

Honestly I sometimes wish the trigger finger was itchier. I think this should have happened back when hexbear was also defederated, but at least it’s finally done with.

FederatedSaint,

That’s right. Let’s use de-federating as a fuckin downvote button.

Just filter out anything and anyone you disagree with. Sounds like a good, healthy plan.

Draedron,

If your instance cheers on genocides it needs to be defederated

ExtremeSoup,

100% agree. I wish they had a minigun defedder that could defed from those tankies a whiile ago 😵‍💫

ExtremeSoup,

Now, do you know how to read? Didnt they say that this was after “carefull consideration”? Get yourself some glasses my man! 🤓

psychothumbs,

Oh wow they said they gave it careful consideration? Case closed must be the right move. How did I miss that??

ExtremeSoup,

You are funny 😅

trailing9,

It would be good practice if admins would link a selection of the offensive material. That would allow both sides to debate how they judge such behavior.

Right now there are celebrating comments but I haven’t seen bad behavior myself, even in heated debates. That let’s me assume that many are thin skinned or unable to refute lemmygrad’s political opinion.

If I understand lemmy correctly then banning lemmygrad will prevent its users from participating in any debate on a lemmy. world community. Does a lemmy instance exist that federated with everybody where important communities should be hosted?

ttmrichter,
@ttmrichter@lemmy.world avatar

It would be good practice if admins would link a selection of the offensive material. That would allow both sides to debate how they judge such behavior.

Are you paying the bills? No? Are you doing the moderation? No? Are you doing any work for this site in any meaningful capacity? No?

Then fuck off and shut the fuck up about how they run it. Go to lemmygrad.ml if you think there’s no bad behaviour there.

Ab_intra,
@Ab_intra@lemmy.world avatar

If you like it so much you can always make an account there?

lwadmin,
@lwadmin@lemmy.world avatar

If you go to lemmygrad.ml and you don’t see anything wrong then maybe you should stay there.

trailing9,

That’s besides the point and rises the suspicion that this is somewhat politically motivated. You have to judge them on how they behave in lemmy.world communities.

Ducks,

You can see their posts on lemmy world communities right now if you go on lemmygrad and look. The admins don’t have to do your research for you.

Bakersfield,

No, the admins on Lemmy.world are tired of having to moderate hate speech and other violations of their code of conduct. You’re welcome to view that on the other instances if that’s your thing.

Edgelord_Of_Tomorrow,

People celebrating dead Israelis because west=bad is not offensive to you?

TheBananaKing,

What’s the bet posts celebrating dead Palestinians won’t be considered offensive to anyone?

TheLurker, (edited )

What’s the bet you lot would just lie and say it is happening anyway?

Because lying is 90% of what tankies do.

mashbooq,

Red fascism playbook: when there’s nothing bad to accuse leftists of, make up some future offense

Edgelord_Of_Tomorrow,

It really is just false dichotomy all the way down with you guys

ChunkMcHorkle,
@ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world avatar

It would be good practice if admins would link a selection of the offensive material.

Duh. They already have. It’s there all day every day. Peruse it as often as you like, at your own convenience. You can even filter by removed posts, removed comments, and banned users:

lemmy.world/modlog

Modlog tells you all you need to know. Unless, of course, you don’t actually want to know it and you’re just JAQing us all off, lol.

Right now there are celebrating comments but I haven’t seen bad behavior myself, even in heated debates.

That’s because the moderators here are very, VERY good at what they do – which again, you’d know if you’d looked at the modlog.

Does a lemmy instance exist that federated with everybody where important communities should be hosted?

No one knows what “important communities” are to you. Stop looking for mind readers and start looking for instances that do not defederate for any reason, because they are out there.

You’re not trapped here. You have options. Take them.

RenownedBalloonThief,

Have you actually read through that modlog? Lemmygrad is a tiny fraction of it.

ChunkMcHorkle,
@ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world avatar

Yes, that’s how I know about it. When I want to find something specific I filter by action, and then I simply skim.

It’s a little time consuming, but not at all difficult.

The person to whom I was responding wanted a selection of offending comments, here it is:

lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&actionType=ModRemov…

I will note that usually the number of removed comments is so low that one page, maybe a page and a half will cover a full 24 hour period.

From what I saw when I looked at it just now – over five pages of removed shite in just half that time, 12 hours – I support the admins’ actions even more than I did when I first posted. And I didn’t think that was possible.

chicken,

There is no way to filter modlog by user instance. After a few minutes pressing Next for removed comments and ctrl-f for lemmygrad.ml I didn’t find anything, but it looks like sometimes the instance url isn’t in the text anyway so maybe ctrl-f won’t even work here. It isn’t actually easy to find these examples.

ChunkMcHorkle,
@ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world avatar

It isn’t actually easy to find these examples.

Yes, it actually is:

lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&actionType=ModRemov…

You now have pages upon pages of offensive content through which you may browse at your leisure, which is what that commenter to whom I responded was demanding:

It would be good practice if admins would link a selection of the offensive material.

And there it is. If you wanted to find lemmygrad-specific material in there, I don’t think you actually tried because it is certainly there in abundance. I was able to find numerous examples just by hovering a mouse over the usernames.

canis_majoris,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

You guys were still federated with Lemmygrad this long?

lwadmin,
@lwadmin@lemmy.world avatar

Most of their communities were blocked since months, that’s why you didn’t see much of them.

canis_majoris,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m just surprised overall because most other major instances defederated from them weeks or months ago, along with Hexbear and/or Exploding Heads. .ca has been defederated with those probably for at least two months now.

Candelestine,

The administration of this Instance has a moderate lean towards not defederating in general, they have to be pushed in general. I would describe LW as a free speech leaning Instance, within the Lemmy environment.

Naturally the topic is very divisive overall and tends to draw heated arguments no matter what position is taken. Free speech absolutists find it downright draconian. I imagine being on Beehaw for longer than five minutes might reduce them to ash, I’m not sure.

jarfil,

LW has some communities which are quite non-freespeech, with rules like “we can remove and ban anything against the rules or not” (see !world), and some which use their rules arbitrarily as excuses for removing content that doesn’t match their ideology (see !politicalmemes).

LWJanniesRCucks,

The administration of this Instance has a moderate lean towards not defederating in general, they have to be pushed in general. I would describe LW as a free speech leaning Instance, within the Lemmy environment.

lol not even close, lw is one of the most defederation trigger-happy instances out there, with only dbzer0, lemmy.blahaj.zone, and a few others having more. You just don’t see lw announcing them. Even lemmy.ml has less defederations than lw.

All you need to do to get banned from lw is to piss of an admin enough over the mildest shit to be a ban-on-sight.

DLSchichtl,

And on the flip side, they let hate and bigotry sit and fester while they take their time cleaning it up. Shit, they don’t even keep up with the mods of their own communities. Several tankies in moderator spots banning people for denouncing Russia.

TheSpookiestUser,
@TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

You know, based on your username I think you might be just a little bit biased

antik,
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

We even know exactly who they are :) Well, were. This account got banned too!

wildginger,

We can take the bias out at the source, theres a few websites who list each public instance and how many other instances they are blocking and blocked by.

hemko,

Well the dbzer0 example already tells that just the amount of defeds says nothing. Db0 has gone quite far to proactively blocking CP and nazi instances across the fediverse not just lemmy.

Considering we’re even federated with hexbear still, can’t call the block finger too trigger happy

pascal,

So, how does it work if I’m on lemm.ee? Is this defederation global?

AmazingWizard,

No its only for the instance. Lemmy.ee is still federated with lemmygrad.

pascal,

Oh, bummer

BottleOfAlkahest,

Lemm.ee is still federated with Hexbear, so they definitely arent defeding .ml. The lemm.ee admin only cares if you deny the genocide that effected his family. To him all other genocide denial is apparently perfectly fine!

pascal,

Is the admin Armenian!?

SheeEttin,

The phrasing of “an increase in hate speech and calls to violence” suggests that there is a tolerable level of those.

Navy,

I took it to mean “it has increased to the point we can’t deal with it all”

clueless_stoner,

It’s more a question of if you want do deal with it at all. :)

SatansMaggotyCumFart,

Well there are going to be assholes everywhere but I guess if that instance’s admins/mods aren’t doing their jobs of moderating their users then it makes sense to defederate so the burden doesn’t fall on all other instance’s mods.

The world isn’t black and white like your comment is suggesting.

grue,

if that instance’s admins/mods aren’t doing their jobs of moderating their users then it makes sense to defederate

I’m pretty sure the problem with Lemmygrad wasn’t that the admins there “[weren’t] doing their jobs”, but rather that they were doing their jobs and their jobs were to promote and encourage the hateful rhetoric instead of stopping it.

gazby,

Not it doesn’t, it suggests there’s a finite amount of volunteer moderator time. Don’t be a troll.

vettnerk,

I’m pro voilence against people who block grocery store entrances because they figured that was the best place to chat with someone they ran into… so yes.

Cryophilia,

People going slow in the fast lane on the freeway

gravitas_deficiency,

Escalefters 🤬

nobleshift,
@nobleshift@lemmy.world avatar

The left lane is for crime …

LemmysMum,

It’s my way or the crime way.

Dran_Arcana,

Can’t forget those whom text at the theater

SheeEttin,

*who

Use who when you would use he, use whom when you would use him. Who texts at the theater? He does.

SatansMaggotyCumFart,

What would I use for she or her?

SheeEttin,

Still who and whom, respectively. And for they and them.

morriscox,

My mother-in-law did a phone call and I chewed her out. I couldn’t believe it but then she complained about “kids these days” being on their phone at a restaurant and I pointed out that she was holding her phone and that we were at a restaurant. She shut up.

lwadmin,
@lwadmin@lemmy.world avatar

A tolerable level we can handle by moderation. And when even the admins join in it becomes clear there is a big incompatibility and cultural difference.

But you probably meant something else, right?

SheeEttin,

No, that makes sense.

lwadmin,
@lwadmin@lemmy.world avatar

;)

clueless_stoner,

😉

Hackerman_uwu,

You folk do good work.

wreckedcarzz,
@wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, there is: using your critical thinking skills, what number comes before 1?

long pause

That’s right! Zero! Good job! And what do we call it when 0 becomes 1?

long pause

And increase, yes! applause

Tune in next week with Dora the Internet Explorer! Bye for now!

pancakes,
@pancakes@sh.itjust.works avatar

This would be a lot more of a stinging response if they could read.

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar
ttmrichter,
@ttmrichter@lemmy.world avatar

I’m wondering if you’re trolling or just ignorant. I’ll do you the respect of assuming ignorance.

There will always be hate speech in any forum. Period. This cannot be stopped short of closing the forum down entirely. If, however, the hate speech is low volume, it can be dealt with individually with post deletion, user bans, community deletions, etc. Standard “tactical” moderation techniques.

But…

Shitholes like lemmygrad.ml release a veritable flood of hate speech, as do their right-wing “Freeze Peach!” equivalents. Individual, tactical moderation does not scale to that level without a whole lot more money than a hobbyist-run instance can bring to bear. Thus if hate speech and calls for violence reach the point where tactical moderation can no longer keep up, you start with the strategic moderation. In older-style forums that might be an IP ban. In the Fediverse it’s defederation.

See how that works?

Now please, prove to me you’re not trolling and simply didn’t understand how things work.

Deftdrummer,

Watching an overtly leftist site get it’s own panties in a bunch when a different form of extremism takes root lol.

Don’t get me wrong the leftism and communism that is allowed to just run rampant is sickening.

Still funny though watching you guys eat your own.

dipshit,

Amazing, Lemmy.world admins are giant cucks who try to censor other people based on their beliefs.

You can ban me all you want but I’ll keep coming back.

lwadmin,
@lwadmin@lemmy.world avatar

You were temporary banned from the announcements community, not from the instance. Also, all your bans have expired.

lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&userId=1589367

jeffhykin,

Can we get the links/receipts/examples?

I’m onboard with the post, and glad to see Lemmy working as intended. Making a post (instead of silently defederating) is wonderful. That said, I think its very important to say “because of comments like X[link] and Y[link]” instead of “due to severity”.

Imagine if the roles were reversed and the CCP was saying they’re “defederating from lemmy.world due to severity”. Members should be given the 1st hand evidence, rather than 2nd hand opinions/summaries.

Koof_on_the_Roof,

I am always interested to read about different viewpoints but I don’t think I will miss Lemmygrad much.

michaelmrose,

Ok so now do lemmy.ml

iegod,

Hells. Yes.

random65837,

THANK YOU!!!

murmelade,

So this post can’t be seen by Lemmy.world accounts? I don’t understand federation lol 🤔

ahal,

You are on lemmy.ml, not lemmygrad.ml

BastianAI,

I can see your post

TWeaK,

You’re in lemmy.ml, so you can still see lemmy.world posts and comments. lemmygrad.ml users cannot interact with lemmy.world users at all.

Every post or comment is first hosted at the user’s instance. So, even though you’re from lemmy.ml and commenting in a lemmy.world thread, your comment itself is actually hosted at lemmy.ml first and then federated everywhere else. Similarly, if you were to make a post in a lemmy.world community, that would be hosted at lemmy.ml first and then federated to lemmy.world, even though the community itself is in lemmy.world.

This means that in order to see content you must meet 3 criteria:

  1. You must be federated with the instance of the community.
  2. You must be federated with the instance of the user making the post.
  3. You must be federated with the instance of the user making the comment.

Where it gets interesting is when there’s a third party involved. So, if a lemmy.world user were to make a post in a lemmy.ml community, then a lemmygrad.ml user would not be able to see it - even though lemmygrad.ml is federated with lemmy.ml, and the lemmygrad user can see the community, they will not have the post federated to them as the federated post is in an instance they cannot connect to. Similarly, if a lemmy.ml user made a post and a lemmy.world user commented on it, then the lemmygrad.ml user would still see the post but not the lemmy.world comments. It gets a bit janky, the website doesn’t let you go down the tree from the first missing comment, but apps might give you some of the comments beneath that were still federated (the same as when a user deletes their comment). You get that “5 more replies ->” thing but when you click it doesn’t expand.

AtmaJnana,

Thank you for this explanation. I wish this were more streamlined, as many users are going to find this confusing and frustrating. In terms of user experience, if something requires this level of explaining, it’s probably bad design. I suppose it’s really on the app, in this case, so I may write an enhancement request to if I can get Booost for Lemmy to handle this better.

TWeaK,

I mean, users don’t really need to have this explained to use the site, these are just the intricate details of how the site functions. Broadly speaking, users can only interact with users from instances they’re federated with.

You can almost always dig in a bit and find confusing functionality behind the scenes. On the surface, though, the user will just see a list of comment threads as normal. Yes, there’s a bit of a bug when comments are deleted or not federated everywhere, but hopefully that will get addressed as lemmy continues its development.

If lemmy.world hadn’t made this announcement, there’s a good chance you wouldn’t have even noticed they’d defederated.

It’s nothing to do with any apps, though. This is purely server side.

murmelade,

I wish it was better explained from the start though. Now I’m kinda concerned that my account/instance will be defederated for reasons beyond my control and I have no way of knowing why/when/if my instance that I signed up on gets defederated from another instance. This account and the communities I have found interesting and become a part of are just temporary and may be taken away at any time and I would have to find everything again and resubscribe with a new account? Seems like a huge flaw.

TWeaK,

Lemmy.ml is generally unlikely to be defederated because it is the main instance, it’s run by the developers who are in charge of the lemmy codebase. If the instance were to become particularly problematic for others then maybe it might happen, but generally the devs have been aware of that and they’ve moved their politics over to lemmygrad.ml.

Personally, I chose lemm.ee because it seemed like the main admin really knows his stuff. He’s contributed to the codebase, been a key helper when things have gone wrong and generally had his instance working well when others were having loading issues. It’s also quite widely federated with almost everyone, for better or worse. I actually made several accounts all over, then settled on this one - I have a lemmy.ml one also.

While it may be something of a flaw, it’s also an advantage. Many people have chosen to run their own instance, some just for themselves as the sole user. Obviously this creates significant overhead for you, but it has the advantage of having complete control in which instances are federated.

In any case, the reality is that your accounts are all temporary and can be taken away at any time almost everywhere you go online. That doesn’t mean it’s particularly likely, and while it is perhaps more likely to happen on lemmy it’s still not very likely.

FYI though most instances will publicly post about major defederations (although probably not for defederations of spam instances). Also, there’s a mod log at the bottom of the web page, so you can see literally everything that moderators of that instance have done.

murmelade,

Wow I get it now. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain it.

greenmarty,

I’ve said in the past and will say it again. Despite someone talking nonsense, being rude, having wrong opinions, silencing them is not ideal. If nothing else it’s exactly the behaviour of Totalitarian regime that this action is aimed at.

So again de federation is IMHO not best aproach.

jman6495,

They are not “silenced”: just like in real life they have every right to express themselves, but normal people have every right not to listen to them. This comes from a leftist btw.

greenmarty,

It’s like building the wall around neighborhood you dislike for their opinions. So yeah its silencing them in sense of preventing them to speak with your part of the city but of course they can talk to themselves.
Point is they get to be isolated in their bubble, so will you . Instead we should learn to think for ourselves and they would be helped back into reality by information outside their bubble.

jman6495,

No it isn’t. If you want to hear them feel free to create an account on an instance that doesn’t block them, that is how the fediverse and the real world works.

They are only isolated from those who don’t want to hear them.

greenmarty,

It is, in the analogy you are saying if you want to talk to them get an appartment in their part of the city.

jman6495,

except an apartment costs money and so there are barriers to entry, lemmy accounts are free.

The only good analogy is “if you want to be friends with us, stop being friends with assholes”.

HelloHotel, (edited )
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

I fear were becoming a mob. (off topic) I don’t know the extent of the issue, but this post’s title found in a few minutes of browsing

Slave killing his slave master, now tell me how the slave master is an innocent victim libs

re-worked to remove inflammatory guff

Slave killing his slave master, the slave master claims he is the victim

it makes people mad because it sounds like their insulting you, (you liberal /s), but really their acting close-minded like the conservative movement anti SJWs.


the topics they pick and opinions they hold are very odd, We (possibly inaccurately) use a label to describe but also insult them, a “tankie” is a “useful idiot” for the very few remaining communist labeled countries (not necessarily actually communist).

menemen,

Time for a new account it seems.

Astaroth,

Yeah. I switched from world to lemm.ee because world just seems to be too willing to use censorship.

From what I can tell lemm.ee is one of the instances that does the least de-federating and censorship so that’s why I switched to there, but I’ve seen talks about it becoming an invite only instance in the future so if someone is not sure then imo you should join now.

abracaDavid,

Seems pretty messed up to me that disagreeing equals hate speech.

If I wanted heavy handed and one-sided moderation I would have stayed on Reddit.

pwnicholson,
@pwnicholson@lemmy.world avatar

That’s the great part about Lemmy - just switch instances or roll your own. No need to complain about heavy handed mods!

Rooty,

Great, now defederate lemmy.ml, they have been getting increasing beligerent towards .world users.

HelloHotel, (edited )
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

Great, now defederate lemmy.ml,

divided we fall, amazon likes that the fediverse ice is cracking because the one chunk that has the union forums risks breaking off and floating out to sea. to create a copy of the community we would eject would be more social issues than having one global community. if lemmy.ml is genuinely parasitic, that only might be a reasonable tradeoff

lemmygrad has little value and you wont miss much, ml is diffrent.

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