Removal of piracy communities

Earlier, after review, we blocked and removed several communities that were providing assistance to access copyrighted/pirated material, which is currently not allowed per Rule #1 of our Code of Conduct. The communities that were removed due to this decision were:

We took this action to protect lemmy.world, lemmy.world’s users, and lemmy.world staff as the material posted in those communities could be problematic for us, because of potential legal issues around copyrighted material and services that provide access to or assistance in obtaining it.

This decision is about liability and does not mean we are otherwise hostile to any of these communities or their users. As the Lemmyverse grows and instances get big, precautions may happen. We will keep monitoring the situation closely, and if in the future we deem it safe, we would gladly reallow these communities.

The discussions that have happened in various threads on Lemmy make it very clear that removing the communites before we announced our intent to remove them is not the level of transparency the community expects, and that as stewards of this community we need to be extremely transparent before we do this again in the future as well as make sure that we get feedback around what the planned changes are, because lemmy.world is yours as much as it is ours.

pankuleczkapl,

These communities are not even hosted on lemmy.world, this is an absurdly overreacted response. There were no signs of any legal trouble and I can’t understand how lemmy.world specifically would be the target of such legal action. If you want to host an instance, you should do everything in your power to allow discussions on any topic, while in necessary cases disallowing direct posting/linking of illegal content. Instead, you chose to block a community that has long been known to avoid having any trouble with the moderators.

poopsmith,
@poopsmith@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • CaptainEffort,

    What content? You mean the comments generally discussing piracy? Because there’s no actual pirated content being hosted, or even linked to, in that community.

    tabular,
    @tabular@lemmy.world avatar

    What signs of legal trouble are you referring to?

    pankuleczkapl,

    Pre-legal action such as DMCA requests or cease and desist letters

    tabular,
    @tabular@lemmy.world avatar

    I can’t speak for other’s hosting peoples comments but I would rather avoid getting DMCAs or C&Ds in the first place.

    pankuleczkapl,

    I understand that receiving DMCA’s may cause fear, but keep in mind that online communities are very exposed to such action, and handling DMCA notices should be a part of normal operation. Someone always isn’t going to like what you are hosting and will try to shut you down legally.

    tabular,
    @tabular@lemmy.world avatar

    You can’t stop any random person sending you DMCA, even if they don’t actually own the copyright. If you can avoid the sincere and likely to win DMCAs then you mitigate some of the work. In a big company that’s no work at all, by myself that’s my limited time alive wasted on outdated foreign law.

    M0oP0o,

    Did they get any? I mean I have got some and I don’t even host anything at all. I am wondering what they did or did not get in relation to legal action.

    hydra,

    I enjoyed helping this place grow and doing my part to discuss here but I disagree with this decision and I’m going to evaluate looking for a different home instance.

    mysoulishome,
    @mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

    This is incredibly reasonable and reflects the exactly appropriate amount of urgency and emotional reaction to this happening. 👏🏻

    PeleSpirit,

    I’m not sure anyone cares if people leave this instance, no one is making money off of you. This isn’t reddit or any of the other big places, this is volunteers.

    M0oP0o,

    So are reddit mods, does not make this less slimy

    AllukaTheCutie7725,

    They probably won’t if it’s individual people, though they are donation funded so if they show their supporters that they don’t care those supporters might stop financially supporting lemmy.world. So telling them they should just leave because you don’t care or handing out petty bans like “let me help you” isn’t going to inspire these people to continue contributing donations.

    This website doesn’t make a profit, but that’s all the more reason there should be an effort to not make people hate them, because I don’t know anyone who would enthusiastically donate to support people or an organization they hate.

    PeleSpirit, (edited )

    Nah, it probably be best if you go to another instance, we’ll all be happier.

    AllukaTheCutie7725,

    Aww you didn’t seem to like what I said did you, darling. I’m not planning on not saying things just because it bothers you, Stay mad, trolls 😎 🏳️‍⚧️

    PeleSpirit,

    Interesting, you’re not horrible at it but you’re not one of the good ones. Anyone who uses emojis like that is hilarious.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    I can’t understand how lemmy.world specifically would be the target of such legal action.

    Because they’re the largest instance and therefore the biggest target.

    tcj,

    But the content in question isn’t hosted on lemmy.world…?

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    It sure is, because that’s how the fediverse works - every community is copied to every other federated instance.

    AllukaTheCutie7725,

    Let’s also not ignore the fact that these communities literally prohibit Links or content from being posted to them. So even if people make the Federation argument about cross-hosting it’s all moot in the end because the community doesn’t allow it in the first place.

    Here is a link to the rules of the Piracy community you will notice if you have any form of reading comprehension (or if you actually read it and aren’t just trolling, like many people here) that rule 3 specifically prohibits linking to or hosting files, which many people making the federated hosting argument seem to leave out of the equation, likely because it destroys their argument altogether since their argument is about illegal content being hosted, but no illegal content is hosted in the first place (and any that is usually is removed by the mods for breaking the rules, just like it is here on Lemmy.world).

    focusforte,

    I think the problem is that because of the way that the fediverse, they ARE hosting the content. They effectively copy the content from that community onto their server to distribute it to all the users of their lemmy instance. So from a legal perspective they are hosting the content and they would be held liable for a distributing it.

    TurboLag,

    And on top of this, the removals were done following the request from a troll account, by a user involved in far more questionable discussions than the legal discussions currently going on in the now-removed communities. Should no attempt be made to differentiate between a legit legal concern and trolling?

    stown,
    @stown@sedd.it avatar

    If you post to a community that isn’t local, the content of the post is stored on your local server and the remote server just makes a copy. The posters home server is where the illegal content is hosted.

    silentdon,

    Yes, so illegal content will end up being stored on both servers. The thing is that the piracy communities don’t allow illegal content to be stored or linked to for the same liability reasons.

    Sanctus,
    @Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

    Which has me wondering why these moves make sense at all. So many people are jumping to the defense of a knee-jerk reaction to a 10h old troll account. Why was that the admins’ solution to a random post from a new account? Plus, pirate communities shared vast amounts of information and a lot of it is not directly related to piracy itself.

    theyawner,
    @theyawner@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s an elephant in the room. It’s an unavoidable topic that will eventually need to be addressed at some point.

    Sanctus,
    @Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

    Its literally not. Piracy topics are all over the web.

    theyawner,
    @theyawner@lemmy.world avatar

    Others have already pointed it out, but Reddit had to fight a subpoena to reveal users who discussed piracy on their site in 2011 and 2018. And just because everyone else is doing it is not a good argument to justify why this instance should expose themselves to an unnecessary risk.

    Sanctus,
    @Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

    So that tells me there is precedent for privacy?

    theyawner, (edited )
    @theyawner@lemmy.world avatar

    No. It just means Reddit managed to argue for their specific case. And even then they had to spend resources that a Lemmy instance owner might not have.

    obosob,
    @obosob@feddit.uk avatar

    Any specific infringement material (by which I mean media) would only be on the user’s home server. Links to content aren’t what is actionable for a DMCA notice as far as I’m aware. And the DMCA does not require platforms to actively monitor or remove potentially infringing content, only to follow the takedown procedure when sent an appropriate notification. If they follow that then they are protected from liability. That’s US law but IIRC the implementations in most of the rest of the world are similar if not the same. And here’s the rub: even without those communities, LW will still need to have a DMCA agent and take action against content when notified because people can and will upload infringing media here on other communities.

    They’re not exposing themselves to additional risk by having the piracy communities unblocked. People can and will discuss piracy, in abstract terms at the very least, all over the place. And discussion of copyright infringement is not copyright infringement anyway. Any liability and risk they do hold they will still have to worry about now regardless.

    AngrilyEatingMuffins,
    AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

    A fascist troll account. If only they were a bot! They’d be the admins’ perfect user

    OverfedRaccoon,

    Good ol’ Bungiefan_ak, creating troll accounts on any instance that’ll have them to troll all things piracy and post transphobic and hateful shit wherever they go.

    mcherm,
    @mcherm@lemmy.world avatar

    The ad hominem criticism is irrelevant. The communities should be removed or not removed based on the server’s policies regardless of who first raised the question.

    SheeEttin,

    It’s not ad hominem to say someone is acting in bad faith.

    mp3,
    @mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

    Preemptive strike

    aka shoot and ask questions later

    majere,

    The great thing is, now you’re 100% empowered to move forward and host the responsibility yourself. Demanding volunteers shoulder potential liability (when you yourself admit you can’t understand how there’s any in the first place) is juvenile.

    The moment a volunteer is hit with a DMCA notice or any threat of legal action, you think they have any interest in going through the court system? You can do it first.

    conciselyverbose,

    I agree with the point, but US-wise, especially if you aren't even the site actually as the source of truth for the community, you almost definitely don't go to court unless you counterclaim. If you get a claim and nuke the offending communities in response (assuming you don't have tools to block specific posts in the communities, but that would also work), you have protections built in.

    Blaze,
    @Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Lemmyworld is hosted in Germany, they have agressive anti-piracy laws

    hydra,

    Wasn’t it hosted in Finland? Or have things changed?

    Blaze,
    @Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    It’s both Finland and Germany iirc

    pankuleczkapl,

    I think you don’t understand what a DMCA notice actually is. The whole point of it is to give you a chance to remove offending content. The “threat” of legal action won’t actually result in anything, provided you comply, and that is exactly why I do not understand the preemptive actions, when there is basically no such thing as immediate legal threat in case of DMCA notices. The copyright holders often do not want to go through the court system either and will gladly accept pre-legal-action compliance.

    Deftdrummer,

    Exactly. Those hosting lemmyworld want to bear the burden of fostering Internet discussion and the institutions pertaining to the Internet therein, but don’t dare get close to anything that could threaten the envisioned unencumbered utopia they want it to be.

    Reality: DMCA takedown requests are a part of Internet life and have no legal consequence. - If they are even received in the first place.

    benjihm,

    The power of the panopticon lies not in being able to see and punish all deviant activity, but to encourage self-correction in all potential deviants who must always assume they are being watched.

    echo64,

    I think you don’t understand what a DMCA notice actually is. The whole point of it is to give you a chance to remove offending content.

    it really isn’t, the whole point is to streamline the capability for copyright holders to remove content they think they have rights to, without a lengthy court cases. it’s still a lot of overhead for any service to manage and also still opens you up to legal action.

    pankuleczkapl,

    From DMCA.com:

    The document stipulates the content that has been stolen and republished without permission with a request for removal. It must be created and submitted in a specific manner so as to comply with the law. Failure to do so means the “notice” to remove the content will not be followed by any party involved in the infringement.

    In exchange for the immediate removal of the content the publisher receives safe harbor from litigation regarding the illegal publication of copyrighted content.

    echo64,

    Yes those are the words defining the initial safe harbor agreement well done.

    I’m talking about in practice and how the dmca has actually been used. Why do you think companies like youtube entirely sidestep the dmca? They do it because the dmca is a huge drain on resources and still opens you up to litigation if you make any mistakes (like not working on the weekends for your volunteered lemmy instance that suddenly got 10,000 dmca requests from Sony pictures)

    Crashumbc,

    You’re fighting a famous “intent warrior” you can’t win. They exist only in their own head where they can’t lose and don’t have an idea how things really work…

    AlmightySnoo,

    You seem to know your way around the law then, so please be the change you want to see in this world. Host a piracy instance and show everyone here that we were wrong and that the admins were just overreacting.

    Squander,

    Be the change you want to see -should be the catchphrase specifically for lemmy trolls

    PeleSpirit,

    There are so many attacking lemmy world it’s getting ridiculous.

    WraithGear,
    @WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

    Criticism is not attacking. They made an unpopular decision for a flimsy reason. Its their right to do it, just like its their right to be wrong about it. But if they can’t handle mild criticism, then maybe hosting a lemmy instance was a bad idea.

    I think lemmy world will be fine with mildly annoyed comments and a bunch of down votes.

    pankuleczkapl,

    I can openly admit I am breaking the law for example by using torrents for piracy - and I seed as much as I can, though it in theory makes me liable. So yes, I am the change I want to see - piracy should be free to discuss everywhere

    AlmightySnoo,

    You can go further: host a piracy instance since you seem confident enough and prove us wrong. Why are you avoiding this part? I’m not the only one having suggested this to you.

    pankuleczkapl,

    Sure, if someone uses it then it’s no problem for me. There are much bigger communities already out there though, so I see no reason to do that. I’ll set it up right now to show you

    pankuleczkapl,

    And here you are (after fighting with docker for an hour) pankuleczka.ydns.eu

    Earthwormjim91,

    It doesn’t really have anything to do with DMCA (a US law). Lemmy world is hosted in Germany which is even harsher on copyright than the US with much stricter penalties.

    The world doesn’t revolve around the US.

    pankuleczkapl,

    It does have a lot with DMCA. Maybe not specifically the DMCA, but all the relevant regulations all around the world that are equivalent to DMCA because of copyright treaties. And yes, while you are right about Germany being more dangerous in terms of piracy (mainly because of copyright trolls), the relevant authority handling the case could very well be the USA court system.

    kiwifoxtrot,
    @kiwifoxtrot@lemmy.world avatar

    The content is hosted on lemmy.world - that’s how the fediverse works. Each instance pushes updates to other instances and they host it locally for their users. The issue is that the admins here can’t moderate a community not on their instance. So if an instance is located somewhere it is legal, it might not be legal at the location of another instance.

    drmoose,

    I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. It’s a cache. Is Cloudflare liable for hosting lib genesis then? Because cliudflare caches much worse stuff than copyrighted pictures and books.

    There’s a lot to talk about but afaik Section 230 that defines every website in US says that host is not responsible for user content and I honestly don’t see how big copyright could prosecute lemmy.world here that’s not even hosting data directly.

    DoomBot5,

    They could unsuccessfully prosecute lemmy.world. Of course it won’t really be unsuccessful if the instance folds from legal fees long before any verdict is reached.

    muddybulldog,

    It’s actually a “mirror” moreso than a cache. There’s a complete, distinct, URL for each piece of mirrored content, that points a specific server and is indexable by search engines independent of the original. Instances ARE hosting the data directly.

    lwadmin,
    @lwadmin@lemmy.world avatar

    Doesn’t matter if they are hosted here or not. The way federation works is that threads on different instances are cached locally.

    We have NO issues with the people at db0 - we are just looking out for ourselves in a ‘better safe than sorry’ fashion while we find out more. As mentioned in the OP we would like to unblock as soon as we know we can not get in any legal trouble.

    dimspace,
    @dimspace@lemmy.world avatar

    as far as i have seen (as a subscriber to c/piracy) there is no links to pirated content and they are very clear that that is not allowed

    the vast majority of the discussion is on morals of piracy, anti piracy measures, etc etc

    tcj,

    I feel like there should be a major distinction between caching remote content and hosting that content yourself. Does Cloudflare get in trouble every time the FBI seizes a site that used Cloudflare routing, CDN, or caching? Not as far as I’m aware.

    pankuleczkapl,

    Well, caching content is not the same as copying it. The major difference in the court would be that caching is automatic - and as such you are not in complete responsibility of what it is you copied. If you do everything in your power to comply with any DMCA notices, then I couldn’t realistically see lemmy.world being targeted. This is an analogous situation to eg. accidentally opening a website containing illegal content. Sure, your computer did download the contents to the RAM, but what matters is that you acted in good faith and did not attempt to get the contents, it just happened in the process of browsing the web and as such you could not reasonably expect to receive such content.

    nan,

    In a world where Quad9 is in the middle of a giant lawsuit over simply serving DNS records, I can’t blame anybody for being extra cautious.

    Shazbot,

    Something that’s getting lost in this conversation is the nature of the infringement and what that means to the copyright holder. Memes could be considered a form of infringement, however in practice they often serve as free publicity. The intent is not to deprive the copyright holder of revenue, but use the medium to express themselves. Exposure increases, and so does the likelihood of revenue from the conversion of new fans.

    This changes with public conversations of piracy, because the nature of those conversations drift into how to deprive and evade the copyright holder by providing users just enough information to find pirated content. From a legal standpoint this can be used to prove aiding and abetting, a crime that be considered equal or an accessory to depending on the jurisdiction.

    The admins are aware of how Lemmy’s content caching works, and now publicly acknowledge the existence of their federation with dbzer0; whose piracy communities are its strongest asset. Any defense of ignorance is out the door. Without banning the communities LW becomes an accessory if dbzer0 becomes liable, as would any other instance who caches dbzer0’s c/piracy.

    To those who still disagree, that’s fine. Open your password manager, make some new accounts on other instances, enjoy the lemmyverse. But you have to agree that it is unreasonable to demand you hold the evidence of my crimes because it would inconvenience me otherwise.

    Crashumbc,

    Memes are protected under fair use doctrine as satire. Most places, IANAL.

    Shazbot,

    I am aware. My point is more to do with how the copyright holder perceives the actions of the individual(s). If the copyright holder feels the work brings more attention to their IP in a way can be converted into sales then they are less inclined to take legal action; even if some in the community may be openly pirating. Some however miss these opportunities thinking its just another instance of unlicensed usage.

    WraithGear,
    @WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

    Better defederate from all instances then.

    dialecticcake,

    Better to create your own instance then.

    It’s about reducing risk not eradicating it and there’s a huge difference in risk in being targeted for legal action due to hosting c/piracy (via caching/mirroring) than from a single piracy post in c/hellokitty.

    Shadesto,

    Complacency isn’t a legitimate defense against criminal activity and corporations are extremely litigious over piracy. Would you rather lemmy.world spend all their money on fighting lawsuits, or building a better instance?

    Any community that is creating questionable content should create their own instance and not seek open federation with the entire fediverse. That kind of behavior is reckless and counterproductive to what we’re trying to do here.

    pankuleczkapl,

    I am not suggesting lemmy.world should be “complacent” in this activity and keep the content after receiving any type of notice. If you host any website with content coming from users, you are not responsible for what they post, as long as you try to comply with the law and remove any offending content. In this case, complacency would be specifically allowing such content, and not merely not moderating harshly everything in they grey area.

    Maalus,

    Soo ultimately you personally will be the only person determining what people can and can’t see, based on your perception alone. You don’t like something, you’ll ban it. You worry about something, you’ll ban it. And there won’t be a trace without you saying “we banned something”. Which means there are no checks at all to you powertripping in the future. How is this supposed to be free, open and general then? This is even worse than reddit was.

    MothBookkeeper,

    You fucking donkey, did you read their comment before you replied to it? They aren’t doing it just because they want to; there are legal implications.

    Maalus,

    There really aren’t. Talking about piracy is allowed in Europe. Sharing stuff isn’t. This is a kneejerk reaction. Also, please don’t talk to people that way.

    MothBookkeeper,

    I will talk to rude people that harass the admins of a free service that way.

    Blaze,
    @Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    I see the point, but still no need to be agressive

    GodzillaFanboy129,

    Well by your logic maybe you should go kiss Reddit’s ass then if you feel that way, they’re hosting a free service and people criticize their decisions and reactivity.

    The fact that we fund this place with donations gives us all the more right to criticize them for it. Are you also going to attack people for ceasing their donations because after this I’ll never donate another cent to them ever again, and I encourage anyone else reading this to do the same.

    assassin_aragorn,

    Feel free to contractually agree to pay all their legal fees, in that case.

    Maalus,

    There won’t be any legal fees since the communities being talked about are allowed in the EU. Other people have made the same point already, but if you are scared of litigation, then you can’t host a forum at all. There is always a place where your forum breaks rules. I.e. no disparaging Putin in Russia. Making fun of the twitter CEO is more likely to get you a lawsuit than any of the communities mentioned, yet it is allowed. Also, it never is a straight up instantenous lawsuit. It always starts with communication saying “don’t do that anymore please”. Once you reject, then a lawsuit is viable and not frivolous. So you can wait till that happens and then block those communities, once a company actually complains. Not when you think that maybe somewhere in the future something might happen or maybe not.

    Truth is, lemmy is small fries. It will be that for a long time with the issues it has. Nobody cares about a tiny community hidden way deep inside.

    mysoulishome,
    @mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s so nice to see so many lawyers in this thread offering their legal counsel…it makes me feel very safe when I start hosting piracychat.doodad next week. I’m assuming they will all be willing to defend me if I do get sued since they are so sure I won’t. 😃

    mysoulishome,
    @mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

    Beehaw doesn’t have downvotes. DOESNT. HAVE. DOWNVOTES!!! HOW CAN THEY GET AWAY WITH TAKING AWAY DOWNVOTES FROM ME… WHAT RIGHT DO THEY HAVE???

    It doesn’t affect me at all because I don’t have an account there. But I’m real mad, see…

    CaptainEffort,

    Discussing piracy isn’t illegal. It would be one thing if they were hosting pirated content, but they don’t even link to anything.

    If that were to change I’d understand the decision, but this just seems silly to me.

    nickhammes,

    What needs to happen for you to be confident you won’t get in legal trouble, and thus unblock them? Change on the db0 side? Lemmy.world admins getting legal representation/advice? Something else? I’m curious how you all see this playing it out in the future.

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    Highly doubt there’s anything db0 can do. lemmy.world is in Europe, piracy has hefty legal ramifications.

    Like you could argue that it isn’t piracy all you want, but if faced with the possibility of your hobby landing you decades in prison and millions in debt, would you do it?

    Just create an account at db0, this really isn’t the big deal people make it out to be.

    pankuleczkapl,
    @pankuleczkapl@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Not all of Europe. In most parts (especially Eastern Europe) the most you will get is a slap on the wrist if you are really really unlucky. And decades in prison aren’t a thing anywhere for simply sharing links to pirated content.

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    No one thinks of Eastern Europe as European beyond geography, excepting perhaps Eastern Europeans themselves.

    Prison notwithstanding, financial ruin is a definite possibility.

    People are making a mountain out of a molehill over this. The instance owner doesn’t want to risk any legal issues over hosting this instance, and I get that. Just create an account on db0 and use that. It’s not a big deal.

    Instance admin isn’t some big corporation trying to silence your free speech. He’s just a dude that doesn’t want his hobby to bite him in the arse.

    nitefox,

    I don’t think I ever heard of a case where somebody has been condemned for piracy in Italy; I also know plenty of people who torrents/stream, yet none who uses a VPN to do so.

    In Germany though, afaik, they are quite insane with their anti-piracy laws.

    ComfortablyGlum,

    “we are just looking out for ourselves in a ‘better safe than sorry’ fashion while we find out more.”

    This is an unfortunate aspect of individuals/small groups housing the fediverse vs big companies. Big companies have lawyers and the capital to back them, individuals do not.

    If I was in your shoes, I’d do the same thing. I appreciate your wish for thus to be temporary. I hope you will share your findings once you come to a final decision; information like this is relevant to all those managing servers.

    Hildegarde,

    Lemmy.world maintains a local copy of every external community. This is how federation works. Any piracy related posts on those subs will be copied in their entirety to lemmy.world servers, so lemmy.world could potentially be sued for hosting that content. Being the largest instance makes it a target.

    It is rare to get advanced notice of legal problems. Usually the first you hear about it is a cease and desist, or a lawsuit. Lawsuits are costly to defend even if you’re doing nothing wrong.

    I don’t like this decision. But it is a sensible one to protect the instance. If you care about piracy discussions you can visit those communities directly or on a different instance that made a different decision.

    Mubelotix,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    There is no suing for that, talking about piracy is perfectly legal. That’s called freedom of speech for your information

    void_wanderer,

    One link in one discussion that slips through is basically enough.

    Mubelotix,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    No it shouldn’t. If it does with your law, tell me your country and I’ll come help you throw the government once we are done with ours in my country

    Crashumbc,

    ROFL…

    Buffalox,

    To encourage and aid in crimes is not covered by free speech in most countries like all of EU. And Lemmy.world is in Finland AFAIK.

    Hildegarde,

    Anyone can sue anyone for anything. All it takes to have a lawsuit is to submit a filing fee to a court, and someone to serve the papers.

    There are many lawsuits that are baseless. There are many lawsuits that are frivolous. If your instance is on the receiving end of one of these lawsuits you will have pay for a lawyer to defend yourself regardless of the merits of the case.

    Courts don’t proactively decide whether someone can or cannot be sued.

    knitipka,

    deleted_by_author

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  • faintedheart,

    I understood about this earlier with the defederation of hexbear instance. So I moved to another. Preemptive defederation is something I don’t support. It should be the last resort.

    Mubelotix,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    Hexbear is evil

    tja,

    Why?

    JBloodthorn,
    JBloodthorn avatar

    They are evidently pro-invader.

    spiderman,

    pics or it didn’t happen

    JBloodthorn,
    JBloodthorn avatar

    Well, right on the first page is this:
    https://hexbear.net/post/340417

    The people pointing out that that the invader is the aggressor have less upvotes than the apologists. Other threads are full of shitting on NATO, aka the only thing stopping the invaders from being the conquerors.

    DosCommas,

    Well it didn’t take long for censorship to roll in.

    hoodatninja, (edited )
    hoodatninja avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • AngrilyEatingMuffins,
    AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

    Do you think censorship can only be taken up by governments? I’m confused.

    hoodatninja, (edited )
    hoodatninja avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • AngrilyEatingMuffins,
    AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

    The person isn’t stating that LW cannot censor them, they are merely noting that censorship is happening

    I’m not sure you understand what you’re railing against as well as you think you do

    void_wanderer,

    This has absolutely nothing to do with censorship.

    thisisnotcoincedence,

    It has everything to do with censorship. This sets a precedent in which a community can be banned by admins and moderators who deem a community to fall outside of their viewing needs.

    This is controlling the narrative which we know LW cannot be held legally liable for what is posted on the web, otherwise we’d see search engines being shutdown for caching results.

    dog_,

    👎

    Touching_Grass,

    You’re not allowed to discuss piracy. You wouldn’t talk about stealing a car would you?

    Delete this.

    hoodatninja, (edited )
    hoodatninja avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • BeardedGingerWonder,

    Were there any links to torrents though?

    AngrilyEatingMuffins,
    AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

    What are you going to collaborate with fascists to ban next? First you try to avoid defederating with exploding heads, then you preemptively defederate with hexbear, and now you collaborate with a known fascist to ban traffic from an instance run by an anarchist. It’s getting pretty easy to see the politics you’re pushing.

    soviettaters,

    Ight, I’m out

    Mereo,

    Understand that Lemmy.world is run by volunteers. It is not a company. They don’t have the resources to fight legal battles. The Fediverse is big, feel free to migrate to another instance if you want to participate in that community.

    elia169,

    But why would lemmy.world be the target of those supposed legal battles? These instances aren't even hosted on lemmy.world.

    Silverseren,

    Because of federation, all federated discussions that have participants from an instance save a local copy of that thread to the source instance the user is from.

    So any infringement on one instance will be an infringement on any instances participants came from.

    SovietTaters,

    Here’s my new account. I found a random tiny instance and am chillin. I’d rather you not ban my new account (since I did nothing wrong) but bygones will be bygones.

    OverfedRaccoon,

    Between Beehaw and LemmyWorld, I’m on my third account at this point. What starts as an alt quickly becomes the main under the right circumstances. 😂

    Mubelotix,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    Join smaller instances, they don’t do that there

    void_wanderer,

    Any recommendation? I don’t want to accidentally sign up on some right wing instance etc.

    spiderman,

    my instance is pretty cool, but i think it would be better for you to find an instance that’s tailored to your hobby/past time.

    OverfedRaccoon, (edited )

    I wish I could find the post/comment from a small instance admin that said it quickly became a nightmare trying to moderate without a team, and people were filling their drive storage with white noise files and crap, needing to be purged twice. I believe they even mentioned they were shutting down the instance and it being a cautionary tale of why not to join a smaller instance.

    EDIT: waveform.social

    Blaze,
    @Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de avatar
    OverfedRaccoon, (edited )

    Thank you so much for finding it! This is it. It really sucks that it has to come to that.

    Haui,

    I read the exact comment you just quoted. I‘m not sure either who it was but I could check if I answered to it :)

    But anyway, I‘d be down to help if anyone needs help. I already told the admin of my instance that I‘m game.

    Risk,

    Gotta choose progressively smaller instances until you self-host.

    Limeey,

    You can solve your “problem” by running your own instance and federate with whoever you want

    Haui,

    Thats actually what I‘m gonna do at some point. Your instance needs to be exposed, right? No chance it would work behind a firewall without a tunnel?

    Limeey,

    If you want to federate, then yes. Your instance needs to accept the activity pub messages sent by the instances you federate with. You would also need to send out the apub notices whenever you do activity on your instances

    Haui,

    That makes total sense. I guess it was wishful thinking on my side. So I‘ll need to wait until I‘m ready to get a vps then. Thanks for elaborating. :)

    mp3, (edited )
    @mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

    From the modlog

    Banned @soviettaters
    reason: Let us help you

    That is petty and thin-skinned af lmao

    EDIT 1: Account has been unbanned sitewide

    EDIT 2: Banned from !lemmyworld instead, for “trolling” _(ツ)_/¯

    At least there is a public modlog for accountability on Lemmy

    spiderman,

    At least there is a public modlog for accountability on Lemmy

    This is one of the features I like in Lemmy so far. Accountability for actions.

    zabil,

    The modlog is a great feature. Thank you for sharing

    sadreality,

    What is the legal theory being used here?

    People chatting about piracy is now a crime in US? I thought the crime was uploading or downloading copyrighted content...

    SheeEttin,

    Lemmy.world is based in the Netherlands, not the US. I don’t know what the law is there.

    ollie,

    lemmy world is hosted in Finland. the owner, ruud, is in the Netherlands

    ButtholeSpiders,
    @ButtholeSpiders@startrek.website avatar

    This is a good point, could anyone comment on the copyright law differences in Netherlands v. US? I think simplifying it for everyone might make it more palatable, otherwise people will continue speculating Lemmy World is overreacting.

    YoBuckStopsHere,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar
    Risk,

    Sorry, how is GDPR relevant here?

    YoBuckStopsHere,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    It applies where the server is located, which is in the EU.

    Risk,

    Yes, but GDPR doesn’t cover copyright - it covers personal/identifiable data. Unless I am very mistaken?

    Hildegarde,

    The DMCA has a provision on circumventing technical protection measures. It is illegal to break DRM. And it is illegal to “offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology… primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure”

    Hosting discussions, or linking to anything that defeats any DRM scheme would have them offering that to the public. A lawsuit would likely cite the specific sections of the DMCA about circumvention.

    The other thing to remember, is that you have to pay to have a lawyer defend you in court. Even if you’re innocent. Even if they are 100% wrong, you have to have enough money to defend yourself. And a community hosted non-profit instance doesn’t want that expense.

    Docus,

    DMCA isn’t particularly relevant here though.

    Hildegarde,

    US lawmakers are much better at marketing than making laws. Hence the US’s abundance of terrible laws with really memorable names.

    The DMCA is the US’s implementation of the terms of the WIPO Copyright Treaty. EU’s implementation are EU Directives 91/250/EC, 96/9/EC and 2001/29/EC. Despite being less relevant to lemmy.world, DMCA rolls of the tongue a little nicer.

    sadreality,

    I wish the state put this much energy into defending my property too

    Either way, fuck media companies, they can keep trying.

    MajorHavoc,

    Good summary.

    Shorter version: DMCA is a shitty law, beacuse it’s not practical for individuals to exercise their rights under it.

    Until we can get rid of the DMCA, copyright and freedom of the press is threatened.

    Folks in this thread would be better served turning their anger on the DMCA and those that keep that unpopular bill in the law books.

    Edit: DMCA doesn’t apply to this server, I don’t think. So nevermind. That’s nice, at least.

    Hildegarde,

    The DMCA is the US’s implementation of the WIPO Copyright Treaty. 110 countries have signed the treaty, and therefore have laws like the DMCA.

    The EU has copyright directives which has the same effect. Lemmy.world is registered in the Netherlands. So it will be subject to the EU’s implementations of the same laws.

    Annoyed_Crabby,

    Is it a liability when the discussion happened outside of lemmy.world?

    Buelldozer,

    Impossible to answer as laws vary by country so what may be legal in the US may be illegal in Finland where LW is. Aside from the multi-national difficulties involved there’s also the fact that there’s been near zero court cases on it anywhere in the world (that I know of). Legal Lightening is going to strike some instance somewhere in the world eventually but no instance owner wants it to be them.

    lwadmin,
    @lwadmin@lemmy.world avatar

    The way federation works, discussions on other instances are cached locally.

    Mubelotix,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    Yes, that’s what it is: cache

    void_wanderer,

    Caching is creating a local copy which they host. It might be legal grey area, but IMO it’s a real threat.

    kiwifoxtrot,
    @kiwifoxtrot@lemmy.world avatar

    Not only is it cached, it is redistributed to all lemmy.world users when they visit that community. It’s equivalent to hosting something you can’t moderate.

    Odo,

    Lovely this happened because someone complained after being banned from the piracy instance for being a transphobic asshole.

    OverfedRaccoon,

    Not sure why people are downvoting you, since that’s exactly what happened. It’s Bungiefan_ak, a troll that admins are playing wackamole with, as the person keeps appearing on new instances and pulling the same shit.

    TheSpookiestUser,
    @TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

    Is there any indication this happened because of that? The reason people are downvoting is because such a link seems tenuous without proof.

    whiskers,

    lemmy.world/post/3175920 this is the post the user created. It was their first post and they weren’t even on lemmy.world

    Squizzy,

    Surely there is a discussion to be had around what is and isn’t allowed, there are plenty of subreddits discussing piracy without dolirect links that are playing within the rules.

    Haui,

    Especially because discussing copies of your own data also happens in such communities. There must be clear guidelines what can and cannot be discussed. Also, it would have been nice to have those communities selfregulate. For example, giving them 30 days to comply, e.g. removing any content that breaks the law.

    Because the fediverse i about democracy. If laws stand in the way of democracy since they have been brought up by governments influenced by global corporations (which are by definition autocratic) then they must be ignored.

    So, striking a balance to not get anyone in trouble while not working for IP holders is the way.

    TheSpookiestUser,
    @TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

    Because the fediverse i about democracy.

    Isn’t it, like, the opposite? With the main assumption being that you should find an instance that aligns with your interests and values, not find an instance and try to vote for it to become something you like? That is technically “voting with your feet” but instances don’t actually need a large population to stay running.

    M0oP0o,

    But we have no tools to migrate users or communities. We can not vote with our feet so much as start over and over and over.

    GodzillaFanboy129,

    I highly recommend people go to the issue relating to account migration on the lemmy software github and explain why account Migration is as important as it is and should not be considered as a second thought. Not being able to migrate ties you to an instance if you’ve been there long or participated a lot, it makes you dependent on them, this is not a good dynamic to have in the Fediverse, it’s why other platforms like Mastodon have profile migration.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s only about democracy if you make your own instance. Otherwise, you have to follow the rules of wherever you’re signed up.

    TheSpookiestUser,
    @TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

    If you make your own instance, as a one-man thing, then it’s not really democracy at all either. The only way it would be democracy is if you made your own instance and specifically said “all decisions will be made via vote” and you actually had users around to participate in those votes.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    Your instance is your vote in the fediverse as a whole.

    TheSpookiestUser,
    @TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

    A vote for what, though? What is being decided, and by who?

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    You are deciding what content you want to see. If you’re on an instance run by someone else, that will never be under your control.

    TheSpookiestUser,
    @TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s not democracy though. That’s my only point here is that isn’t related to the concept of democracy at all.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar
    Haui,

    Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

    You’re not wrong. It’s not the same as voting for a desired outcome and if owners/admins push for something, they can usually get it until people leave.

    But the system is open source so they can’t just shape their server how they like. They can’t keep others from getting news from outside and they also can’t push their own agenda imo.

    So I‘d say you‘re right, it’s not „democracy“ but its either something else entirely or it is „about democracy“. Maybe power equality through federation?

    TheSpookiestUser,
    @TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world avatar

    What it’s about, in my opinion, is trust. To tie it back to Reddit yet again - on Reddit, if the admins of the site did something, their word was final and there wasn’t much you could do about it. On Lemmy, if the admins of an instance do something, even here on the biggest one, their reach is limited to their own space; they cannot affect what happens beyond. This means that instead of having to do a big ol exodus to try and prop up a new network, people can just pick another instance and continue where they left off, outside the reach of the admins that did the thing they dislike.

    Therefore, the instance admins and the users (and also the mods) need to actually have trust in each other to stick around, as there are viable alternative spaces they can go to if that trust is broken. Additionally, the entire concept of federation is also built on trust - “we will allow an exchange of content between our instances because we trust you”.

    I don’t agree with this decision, but I understand it, and I still trust LW admins because they’ve had a good track record so far. For those reasons I’ll stay here. I don’t fault anyone leaving, though, if their personal threshold of trust has been broken. The only thing I’m really wary of is the free-speech absolutists that insist no one should be defederated from; the tool exists for a reason. There’s not many of them, though.

    Haui,

    I agree on practically everything you wrote there. Thanks.

    I‘d like to add that I was a little upset first by their childish action but then came to the conclusion that they in fact have very little power compared to the whole platform. So yes, it‘s still not ok (and I would be furious if my content just gets deleted) but it is not that big of a deal.

    Mubelotix,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    Yes. The thing is there is zero content breaking the law, so they would have looked ridiculous

    Haui,

    From the other comments here I think these people are not very smart. Probably should make new sailor sub somewhere else soon. Obviously with relatively strict rules. For example: only trackers, no direct links etc. (I‘m not a pro at this. What I know is from reading)

    WarmSoda,

    Yeah I’m subbed to few piracy comms just because I like to see how that side of things is going. I’ve never seen anyone post or comment a link to a pirated file. I’ve never even seen anyone link to a website. It’s all been news and discussions and that’s it.

    Actually, Reddit was far worse with huge ass lists of links to games and sites.

    AlmightySnoo, (edited )

    I’ve never seen anyone post or comment a link to a pirated file.

    You ignored the “assistance in obtaining it” part, because members of !piracy have been doing that. Also:

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b1645823-ae50-4611-869c-38b0de32bb10.png

    EDIT: oh boy, shill posts a lie, innocent pirate mob upvotes. I literally post a proof that what he said is completely false, innocent pirate mob downvotes.

    WarmSoda,

    Are you trying to say I’m a shill? Lol wat.
    I chimed in with my experience. You chimed in with one example expecting it to be the end all of the discussion.

    If you really want to talk about who does what, look at yourself asking for links to alternate apps for online services so you don’t have to pay for them. Someone’s been asking for assistance in obtaining things alright.