Lemmy.world Hexbear Statement

Update:
The comments from this post will not be removed as to preserve the discussion around the announcement. Any continued discussions outside of this thread that violate server rules will be removed. We feel that everyone that has an opinion, and wanted to vent, has been heard.

————-

Original post:
Yesterday, we received information about the planned federation by Hexbear. The announcement thread can be found here: www.hexbear.net/post/280770. After reviewing the thread and the comments, it became evident that allowing Hexbear to federate would violate our rules.

Our code of conduct and server rules can be found here.

The announcement included several concerning statements, as highlighted below:

  • “Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated.”
  • “The West’s role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”
  • “These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term “rules-based international order.” It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”

The rhetoric and goal of Hexbar are clear based on their announcement: to “dismantle western propaganda” and "demolish organizations such as NATO” shows that Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.” It’s to push their beliefs and ideology.

In addition, several comments from a Hexbear admin, demonstrate that instance rules will not be respected.

Here are some examples:

“I can assure you there will be no lemmygrad brigades, that energy would be better funneled into the current war against liberalism on the wider fediverse.”

“All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.”

Overall community comments:

To clarify, for those who have inquired about why Hexbear versus Lemmygrad, it should be noted that we are currently exploring the possibility of defederating from Lemmygrad as well based on similar comments Hexbear has made.

Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. However, based on their comments and behavior, no positive outcomes can be expected.

We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons. While we understand that not everyone may agree with our decision, we believe it is important to prioritize the best interests of our community.

MonsieurHedge,
MonsieurHedge avatar

I'm not sure where "global communism" and "fascist state headed by Vladimir Putin" intersect, but it sure ain't anywhere sane. Defederation from the Lemmygrad school of insanity seems like a grand old time.

Shinhoshi,
@Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml avatar

It’s more like “the enemy of my enemy is a friend.” We don’t love the Russian Federation and would rather the Soviet Union still existed.

The reason we have critical support to Russia at all is because the United States empire throws a coup in your country any time you go against their interests (see Euromaidan in Ukraine).

Think of it like how the US and the Soviet Union were temporarily allied to fight the common enemy of the Nazis.

MonsieurHedge,
MonsieurHedge avatar

On one hand, imperialistic hyperliberalism. On the other hand, imperialistic fascism.

A fascist and a "critically supportive communist" at a table is two fascists at a table. You get the bullet.

Shinhoshi,
@Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Don’t support fascism.

MonsieurHedge,
MonsieurHedge avatar

Buddy, you are supporting fascism. Your assesment of the lesser-of-two-evils here is based in neither compassion nor reason, but idiotic spite. You will actively side with a fascist regime against a liberal one not because you truly want a better world, but because you're a contrarian idiot. You are the greatest weapon fascism has on attacking the left, because you will blindly support everything it does.

I cannot stress this enough: You are both deeply evil and need to be outright killed so that the increasing influence of fascism can be stemmed and revolutionary consciousness can be developed.

Shinhoshi,
@Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml avatar

I’m new to this communism thing. As far as I’m aware, I’m a communist because I actually do want a better world.

If you’re talking about the Russian Federation, I certainly don’t think they’re still socialist. The word critical in critical support does heavy lifting here. I want a communist government, not the Russian Federation government, and I’m happy to criticize them. Can you please explain how the Russian Federation is fascist though?

As an aside, in my previous example, do you think the USA got along great with the USSR after World War 2 even though they had been fighting together?

revolutionary consciousness can be developed.

If you want to see revolutionary consciousness developed, then why exactly am I deeply evil and need to be murdered?

MonsieurHedge,
MonsieurHedge avatar

Pictured here: The classic neofascist tactic of "concern trolling", sometimes known as sealioning. Your communist impression isn't very good, dog. The day of the rope is coming and you and your ilk will not be spared.

VentraSqwal,

Still doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, nor to a lot of other people. Ukraine doesn’t have the right to decide their country wants to join NATO? Russia wants oil or a buffer so innocent Ukrainian citizens get to die? It’s not innocent Russians dying, because they are the aggressor in this case. They are being the US here, like the US was in Iraq. They interfere in just as many elections, have oligarchs, so much corruption, etc. But because they’re not the West, they’re the good guys?

But while I still don’t agree with that lemmygrad’s strange, hypocritical takes, I still don’t agree with defederating (with them or hexbear). Defederating should be a last resort in my opinion.I don’t want echo chambers. Talk to people or ban the troublesome ones. Hopefully improved mod tools released one day helps with all this defederating.

Shinhoshi,
@Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Ukraine doesn’t have the right to decide their country wants to join NATO?

NATO doesn’t even want Ukraine remember? Then they’d have to actually contribute to the war more than letting it be fought to the last Ukrainian.

so innocent Ukrainian citizens get to die?

We don’t want more dead Ukrainians. If you’d like to hear our take, go check it out.

They are being the US here

The US is involved in this situation — are you sure the US isn’t being the US here?

Defederating should be a last resort in my opinion.I don’t want echo chambers.

Agreed, I’m glad Lemmygrad doesn’t defederate Lemmy.world despite how tempting that must be sometimes to our admins.

kmkz_ninja,

Ahh yep there’s the pro-Russian opinion.

“Stop giving arms to Ukraine so we can invade without killing so many of them, or them killing so many of us”.

Fuck off, invader apologists.

GreenCrush,
@GreenCrush@lemmy.world avatar

Good. I commented earlier about how horrible hexbear was. I signed up for hexbear, hoping to meet leftists, but these are not leftists. They just parrot Chinese/Russian propaganda. They have no original takes, no critical thinking. Call me whatever, but, I’m pro NATO. I don’t give a shit about what bullshit propaganda you show me from a totalitarian regime. If the U.S. is bad, then the CCP is pure evil.

XiaoHei,

thank you for your bravery it is clear that the FIFTY CENT is here (paid wokies)

SankaraStan,

Surely you could just block individual users that you find horrible instead of the admins blocking an instance of 20k users?

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Critical thinking is when you believe US antiChina propaganda.

Cabrio,

Critical thinking is when you believe China, it’s not like they hide that their government is authoritarian trash.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

it’s not like they hide that their government is authoritarian trash.

All I hear you saying is they don’t hide the truth.

Doublethink.

Cabrio,

If you believe that then you’re just as wilfully ignorant as the people you accuse of ignorance. Do you practice being this stupid or does it come naturally?

nephs,

It’s funny how people in the west can’t imagine on their wildest dreams an actually competent government that won’t just be controlled to make things easier for their rich elite (the bourgeoisie, for the well informed).

Cabrio,

It’s funny how tankies make assumptions like ‘can’t imagine competent government’ because instead of wanting to tear down the most successful institutions of human health, safety, and wellbeing we want to tear down the shit ones spreading the most hate and suffering first, including the ones in our own back yards.

OurToothbrush,

instead of wanting to tear down the most successful institutions of human health, safety, and wellbeing

No, we don’t want to tear down Cuba.

Cabrio,

No, we don’t. Just be cause the US does something doesn’t mean ‘the west’ supports it, even Americans think it’s stupid to still be sanctioning Cuba.

It’s like you practice being disingenuous because you can’t practice being intelligent.

OurToothbrush,

I believe you missed the joke.

OurToothbrush,

Reread what I wrote, you missed the joke.

Cabrio,

Poe’s law. Explain yourself.

OurToothbrush, (edited )

You claimed socialists shouldn’t try to tear down some of the best systems in the world, I said that none of us are going after Cuba.

Edit: my bad, I got you confused with another thread.

I’m not sure they’re from hexbear, but IDK. It is a silly bit but I dont get why it is bothering people so much?

Cabrio,

All good, I get what you were saying though, viva la Cuba.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Just be cause the US does something doesn’t mean ‘the west’ supports it

It literally does.

Otherwise the rest of the West would do literally anything to stop the US when it does awful shit.

Cabrio,

You have a misapprehension of how international political influence works.

That’s like me saying your country supports slavery because you haven’t stopped the US from having legalised slavery in their constitution for prisoners.

Or you support genocide because your country hasn’t stopped Russia from going to war.

Or you support racism because your country hasn’t made all the countries in africa stop being racist.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

My country does support slavery, because my country is the US. It also supports genocide because it’s the US and it supports racism because it’s the US.

Blaming me for that would be ridiculous, because I’m basically powerless. But like, I can criticize the UK for not standing up the US on its use of prison labor and its genocidal programs and its racism. I can criticize France and Canada and Australia for it too.

Let’s not pretend the West is powerless to stop the US from doing whatever it wants. If they wanted to, these countries could make the US hurt for the things it does and force it to back down. They could even force the US to stop supporting Israeli apartheid.

They won’t, because they ultimately support the US more than they dislike the things the US does.

Cabrio,

I love it when a voter blames everything outside of their country for how their citizenry votes.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Barely half of the citizenry here votes, and when they do they often see their votes discarded because of electoral college bullshit.

In my state they destroyed the results of the 2020 caucus by sabotaging the vote counting app to stop the socialist from winning.

Lets not pretend like voters have power lol

Cabrio, (edited )

They have the power, choosing not to vote is choosing not to use that power, nobody outside of your country will make your voters vote, these are systems your countrymen built and voted to implement, if half of them chose not to vote then they agree with those systems by default.

Can’t reply edit:

It doesn’t matter how rigged it is, it got that way because the people that voted did so for representatives that implemented these systems. The electoral college isn’t even your only hurdle, there’s first past the post, and gerrymandering too, both things implemented by the representatives of the voters.

People don’t vote because they’re stupid, lazy, and disinterested. There’s no fixing the ignorance of someone who decides to throw away their only chance to influence their country, no matter how small or futile it seems, choosing not to try is the same as giving up.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

50% of the presidents in my lifetime were elected despite losing the popular vote.

And, again, remember the 2020 Iowa caucus. They destroyed the caucus to stop the socialist.

That’s why people don’t vote. It’s literally rigged.

PeleSpirit,

It has a hanky vibe to it, I think it’s a conservative version of Stephen Colbert.

crius,

The fact that Russia and China are still even considered “Communist” is just happening for the US propaganda really.

They are regime that are moved only by greed.

squiblet,
squiblet avatar

Their politics, like Chapo’s, confuses me. I try reading it and their positions and beliefs don’t seem coherent or to line up with anything I understand.

raspberriesareyummy,

This is not a pissing contest on whose propaganda you like better. The US, Russia & China international politics have all been evil throughout history, and the only reason other nations don’t stand out as much is because they are currently not world powers. You only like NATO because you prefer their propaganda - and possibly because the p.o.s. Putler unknowingly was baited into the greatest NATO PR campaign of all times in Ukraine. Nevertheless, defederating from servers who are making statements against NATO and the western world order is a very brainwashed and dumb move.

kmkz_ninja,

And Hitler was baited into invading Poland by the Jews, I assume?

Pili,

If you want to meet leftist, you will meet people who are against NATO and who know all the evil the USA has done. Those are entities that have spent the last 100 years genociding left leaning people with the help of fascist groups all around the world, so of course we aren’t friendly to them. If you aren’t aware of that, you may be from Europe, so I suggest you research Operation Gladio to have an example of what they did here, to their supposed allied countries.

If you’re not open to those ideas, I really don’t understand why you were hoping to meet leftists.

kbotc,

Being against NATO is concisely being Pro-Russian. You cannot separate the two as NATO only continues to exist as a counter to Russian nuclear imperial ambitions.

It is possible to be critical of the US without pro-Russian stances.

Cassilda,

Nah, NATO and Russia can both be bad. Of course, I remember back when liberals used to criticize Dubya for “with us or against us”.

kbotc,

What do you expect to happen if NATO goes away in your eyes? Really lay it out for me.

redtea,

World peace would be a step close, for a start.

kbotc,

In what fantasy land does dissolving NATO end Russia’s imperial ambitions. They’ve taken a chunk out of multiple neighbors, as long as they were not part of a defense pact, they were targeted.

redtea,

I fear that we have reached an impasse in this conversation already. To continue talking would risk talking past one another. All I can do is proffer this meagre offering: www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2451jFeZp0

redtea,

What was NATO doing in Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq? How many Russians are there in Iran, Korea, or Syria?

kbotc, (edited )

NATO wasn’t in Iran, Korea, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya. Lotta swing and misses there. It really feels like maybe you either don’t know what you are talking about or are arguing straight up in bad faith, and at this point I think it’s bad faith.

EDIT: I do take back Libya. NATO enforced the no-fly zone, and the arms embargo.

redtea,

You can pretend that NATO member states are separate from NATO if you like but we can’t really continue a conversation if you think the people behind NATO are not also the same people behind the wars and/or embargoes of the above states. Just because the swap the mask every now and then doesn’t mean it’s a different actor.

kbotc,

I would figure someone who spends countless hours arguing the minutia of Marxist thought would have some idea of how words have meaning and when they are used incorrectly, the person using them incorrectly likely has an agenda.

Your agenda seems to be being a useful idiot for a guy who is currently committing genocide and you’ll just make up whatever you can to validate your predetermined opinion. Don’t do Putin’s work for him.

redtea,

Marxism is dialectical and historical materialism. It is the analysis of contradictory and internally-connected relations and processes. To detach NATO from the actions of its member states is anti-dialectical.

Additionally, as you say, words have meanings. When people criticise NATO it is as a stand-in for the imperialist world order. It includes the IMF, World Bank, the WTO, the ‘international’ courts and rules, and all their elements and capitalist lackeys. You’re making a semantic argument, which misses the crucial point: that NATO and its member states are concerned only with the wealth and power of their bourgeoisie, regardless of Russia.

I’m not trying to hide the fact that I have an agenda, that we can’t have world peace until there are no more imperialists, which includes and is often, in ordinary language, represented by NATO. If you interpret that as support for Russia, there’s not much left for us to discuss.

curryandbeans,

How many Russians are there in Iran, Korea, or Syria?

Lots? With plenty of bombs, aircraft, and chemical weapons?

SankaraStan,

what? lmao you can absolutely be against NATO and not be hollering and hooting for Russia. This isn’t a Marvel movie, you can have nuanced takes with what is a proxy world war decades in the making

Buelldozer,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.world avatar

lmao you can absolutely be against NATO and not be hollering and hooting for Russia.

Sure, I don’t think anyone is really arguing against that. However when you’re against NATO right now when most, if not all, of its members are currently helping Ukraine against Russia and you are coming from an over-the-top Communist instance like hexbear it looks like nothing more than Tankies being Tankies.

planish,

What does it even mean to be “against NATO”? Is it, like, saying “the NATO alliance ought to disband because the terms of the alliance are bad for my country actually”? Is it like “I hope NATO countries lose all their wars”? Or like “NATO is a dangerous thing to exist because it allows an invasion of Country X, which is likely to happen, to result in a global thermonuclear war”?

A bunch of countries could be arming Ukraine without the sort of all-for-one, one-for-all terms of NATO specifically that make it likely to figure prominently in any explanation for why we have all died of nuclear weapons.

SankaraStan,

the person i replied to said that you cannot be anti-NATO and anti-Russia, that is what i was responding to

Buelldozer,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.world avatar

Ah, sorry that misunderstood. Carry on!

kbotc,

Not really. NATO only has a single purpose: Containing Russia’s imperial ambitions. No NATO, Russia goes whole hog reclaiming the land they consider “theirs” as we are currently seeing in Ukraine.

It is like saying “I can support worker’s rights but I’m against unions”

If you take away the protection the imperialists will do the imperialism thing.

SankaraStan, (edited )
  • bombing yugoslavia famously because Hillary Clinton requested the bombing and Bill relented that was the first time she talked to him in 8 months after the Lewinsky scandal
  • bombing kosovo creating more death and destruction than the conflict had until that point
  • funding stay behind missions in europe like Operation Gladio
  • Hiring wehrmacht generals as 3 star NATO generals (Hans Speidel and Adolf Heusinger)
  • economically crushing the poorer countries within the EU with loaded IMF loans

are weird ways to contain russia’s ambitions

it’s also really weird to refuse several offers of peace from russia in the last 20 years and instead march aggressively towards them, going back on every agreement back dating back to Yeltsin (really, further back than that but we’re talking Russia post-USSR here). seems like those leftists might have something of a decent critique around an organisation doing those things since its inception

kbotc,

Ah here goes the fun one where you explicitly support a genocide, confuse NATO with the IMF, and regurgitate Russian propaganda that countries that feared Russia blackmailing the US to join NATO was a “march on Russia”

This is why I said what I said, and stand by what I said: Anti-NATO is literally Russian propaganda dressed up.

SankaraStan, (edited )

i don’t know what you’re talking about with the genocide comment edit: oh you think because i criticized NATO bombing civilians, i’m pro-genocide. incredible

Greece had to take the IMF loans to continue being in NATO and the EU, that was part of the agreement

i don’t know what you’re talking about with Russian blackmailing, I was referring to the 00s expansions of NATO that violated the agreement between Russia/NATO to stop expanding

kbotc,

You brought up Kosovo, you know, defending the war where Slobodan Milošević was committing crimes against humanity, including genocide.

Again: The EU is not NATO. The IMF is not NATO. Greece did not take the loan out to “stay in NATO” and that’s a bad faith argument from you.

Poland blackmailed the west to become part of NATO.

The bad faith pro-Russian straight up propaganda argument comes out again. There was never an agreement to not expand NATO. There was one diplomat that offered it, but it never made it further than that. Never written down, and the Russian President agreed that it was not part of any agreement.

Stop citing Russian lies and I’ll stop calling you a pro-Russian useful idiot.

SankaraStan,

my sibling in christ you can look at the IMF loan document for Greece online for free. It states they needed funds to stay in NATO and the EU. Greece spent 7.5 billion on NATO contributions last year, that money doesn’t come from nowhere

i don’t know what you’re talking about with poland, i never mentioned anything about blackmail and I don’t think that

my language re: kosovo came from amnesty international. you can read their report here. nato used depleted uraniam weapons, cluster bombs, and indiscrimately murdered thousands of civilians, upwards of 5,000 in some counts though this report limits totals to the hundreds

redtea,

NATO’s purpose is to guarantee the freedom and security of its members through political and military means.

www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

It would seem that NATO itself disagrees with you.

Edit: NATO are the imperialists. By any definition. Please read any of the following authors’s works on imperialism/empire: Hobson, Hilferding, Lenin, David Harvey, John Smith, Michael Hudson, Zac Cope, Anievas and Nisancioglu, Samir Amin, Giovanni Arrighi, Paul Kennedy, or Niall Ferguson.

histy,

deleted_by_author

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  • shufflerofrocks,

    I’m genuinely asking - is this a joke comment? This is the literally the same thing Musk and Spez made for Twitter and Reddit.

    People invested time into their communities here, many joining here after seeing the loads of discussions and admin posts stating their intention to defederate as little as possible. Supporting the use of defederation for creating echo chambers is silly af, I don’t wanna deal with toxic fellas but I also don’t want defederation without any legitimate basis.

    People are allowed to give their opinions on discussions here, the server admins aren’t supposed to be overlords like the big social media and their CEOs - that’s the reason we all moved here.

    Angry_Maple,
    @Angry_Maple@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I don’t think Lemmyworld has a CEO lol.

    What profit are they making from people aside from voluntary donations that get used to keep the server running? How is Lemmyworld a company to you, and not an instance run by an individual?

    The person running the instance could hypothetically just kick everyone off tomorrow, and there would be feck all anyone could do about it.

    boredtortoise,

    It’s interesting how much right wingers and fake communists hate the “libs”.

    Anyone can see that liberalism is inherently more aligned with leftist/communist/anarchist properties and cannot exist under capitalism.

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    Liberalism is literally the ideology of free markets. It IS capitalism.

    monobot,

    The same way we didn’t (and don’t) have real communism, we don’t have real capitalism. There is no free market and there never was.

    I think that closest to ideal communism was ex Yugoslavia, in which workers actually owned factories, but wasn’t able to compete with power agresive western “capitalism” was attacking. Which is expected, since Yugoslavia was focused on quality of life not on profits and performance.

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    Communism is not a magic button, it is a process of development. Reaching the higher-stage communism you’re referring to is very likely to be outside any of our lifetimes it is far easier to talk about socialism as the transitional state between capitalism and eventual communism. Communists being in power doesn’t mean we magically press a button and suddenly everyone lives in a utopia of stateless material abundance, it just means the socialist state is working towards it, the transition between capitalism and communism.

    What the socialist state itself looks like differs widely based on the conditions, just like capitalism has a huge amount of variance based on the conditions. Each nation has very different needs, problems and cultural idiosyncrasies that result in the socialist state needing to look quite different for each of them. The outcome is ultimately determined by those conditions, and by the conditions imposed upon it in its defence of itself against capitalist onslaught attempting to destroy it.

    boredtortoise,

    That is capitalist apologia and propaganda.

    Capitalism and “free” markets are authoritarian and hierarchical

    Robaque,

    Congratulations, you have discovered the inherent contradiction of the “free” liberal ideology

    boredtortoise,

    There’s nothing new to me in how right-wingers steal terminology. But if someone discovers that now then that’s great.

    Robaque,

    Right-wingers have appropriated themselves of leftist terminology many times (notably, “right libertarianism”, “anarcho capitalism”, and “national socialism”) but liberalism is already right-aligned as its still fundamentally capitalist despite being superficially progressive - permitting the oppressed the hope for change through reform, and giving every poor sucker the “freedom” to get fucked by the social/economic heirarchies of the status quo. Liberalism is how you get greenwashing and rainbow capitalism.

    boredtortoise,

    Nah, liberalism is in essence movement away from any authoritarianism, including the shackles of capitalism.

    It’s a capitalist hegemony mindset where it’s seen somehow possible inside it. Pink washing is a good example. Marketing works for the masses and people conflating the idea is proof of it.

    AngrilyEatingMuffins,
    AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

    Google liberalism

    Strawberry,

    I feel obliged to inform you that you’re using that word in a way that nobody else on Earth uses it. It sounds like you’re trying to describe anarchism/libertarianism (not the so-called “libertarianism” in the US), but calling it liberalism.

    boredtortoise,

    Don’t worry, I know that the capitalist marketed version has penetrated the anglosphere. But still general knowledge like wikipedia corroborates what I’m saying

    Robaque, (edited )

    Could you link me the wikipedia article / paragraph you’re referring to?

    The first sentence of the article on Liberalism states:

    Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law.

    Private property is a fundamentally capitalist concept.

    Also, “consent of the governed” is non-existent in practice. Even without bullshit like gerrymandering, and the efficacy of propaganda, the tyranny of the majority is still a problem.

    boredtortoise, (edited )

    Continue reading if you’re interested. In that quote you’ll already see properties which aren’t possible in capitalism.

    rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law

    In capitalism money buys these. They’re not available as is.

    Private property is a topic for itself. I can’t think of a current ideology which prohibits owning a TV or a toothbrush. Some ideas separate that as personal property and private property actually talks about the means of production.

    Private means of production is “foundational” to capitalism. Not derived from it — it can exist without it as well.

    This wikipedia page adds a bit more but that’s the gist of it

    A few rhetorical questions:

    Are private means of production where an owner takes most of the profit instead of it being fair among workers and owners, or worker-owners, something that is compatible with economic freedom?

    Or does a capitalist system offer more freedom to someone in this scenario?

    So then, can someone claim in good faith capitalism as liberal when it’s based on such means of production ownership?

    Robaque,

    Mate it sounds like you’ve got some nice ideals but are mixing them up with the wrong terminology.

    What you described is personal property, not private property.

    The fact that under capitalism, “rights” are bought is precisely why the “freedom” under liberalism is fake.

    Also, what do you mean with your rhetorical question example? That it wouldn’t happen under liberalism because such heirarchies would be prevented by governmental reform?

    Robaque,

    Maybe you mean (left) libertarianism? Liberalism has never been anti-capitalist.

    boredtortoise,

    One can use different names for the same ethos. Semantics are always a bit of a distraction. The idea of freedom is closer to anticapitalism than hierarchies of capitalism.

    Robaque,

    Nah, semantics is important, without it it would be impossible to properly communicate complex ideas.

    Liberalism and (left) libertarianism are very distinct, and seeing that freedom and equality are important to you, I think it would do you good to learn more about the latter. Particularly libertarian socialism, and anarchism :)

    boredtortoise,

    I’m familiar, no worries there. Semantics do have their use, say, a scientific research has to explain the terms it will use throughout.

    In public discourse it can lose focus of the subject at hand and lead to dogmatic labelism in communities.

    There are already so many words which have been hijacked with newspeak. We’re speaking of one. Most assume communism is stalinism, anarchy is chaos, feminism is female chauvinism etc

    So the people are reduced to bicker which means what while… well we know what is wrong with the world.

    Robaque,

    Ok, I looked into it a bit more and stand partially corrected, I guess you technically could be a “liberal anti-capitalist” depending on the definition used, but still, I think that’s precisely why semantics is important. If you’re going for such a particular definition then you’d do good to specify it. At least mention an author or smthn.

    If anything, bickering would arise from misunderstanding. E.G. even though libertarianism is through and through leftist, (personally) I always clarify that I’m not referring to the self-contradictory thing that is “right libertarianism”.

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    Read a fucking book I am on my knees literally begging you. Get an absolutely basic level of political literacy, PLEASE.

    Lunar,
    @Lunar@lemmy.world avatar

    Right wingers and left wingers mean entirely different things when they refer to “libs” though. Righties associate liberalism with anything that Fox News tells them is woke (totally unaware that their politics literally are neoliberal), while leftists refer to the actual political ideology, which is an inherently capitalistic one.

    AndreTelevise, (edited )

    There’s a difference between liberal left (which is what a majority of rational, secular people belive in), honest far-left, which is about socialist economics, eat the rich, BLM/anti-racism, anti-cop, gender abolition, human rights, actual anti-colonialism etc. and the kind of “far-left” that is “anti-west”, which isn’t really about honestly discussing these issues, but rather about dividing people, being contrarian to established things that work and make sense, and trying to paint everyone who disagrees even a tiny bit as the scum of humanity. On the other hand, any defederation further enlarges the rift between communities and makes being informed on what others think more cumbersome. Also, they think Beehaw, a place that is supposed to be inclusive, is fascist? I am not sure how it is. It’s mostly left and liberal, really.

    ExtremeSoup, (edited )

    Loving all the hexbear alt-accounts in the comments here ❤

    Btw, if people didnt understand this. I AM being ironical…

    GONADS125,

    Their instance encourages vote brigading and content manipulation tactics. One of the real reasons for the defederation, unlike all of the strawmen or red herrings they’re peddling here.

    Starlet,

    Vote brigading? Hexbear doesn’t even HAVE a downvote button.

    Cassilda,

    Yep, if people were reading this through hexbear, they wouldn’t even be able to down vote you. Now they just have to do it through their startrek.website accounts.

    Historical_General,
    @Historical_General@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s already possible, I had it happen to me, and people on unrelated communities (LotR etc) were replying to me asking why my post and comment got ranked down. This is clearly a lemmy problem, not a hexbear one. And by increasing division we’re going to legitimise infantile behaviour like that.

    Starlet,

    we’d use our mains if we were allowed ❤

    duviobaz,
    @duviobaz@lemmy.world avatar

    Everyone remember, those defending pseudo-leftism are paid by China and Russia

    XiaoHei,

    Thank you for your bravery in speaking up. Wokies have no legs to stand on so have to stack their 50cents to get the “moral” high ground.

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    “Everyone who believes X is a paid shill or a bot”

    Unhinged

    ExtremeSoup,

    Feels like it, lol.

    Tabitha,

    You would have to be paranoid to the point of insanity to believe that socialists are secretly in the pay of China and Russia. Yet this is what will pass for acceptable centrism on lemmy.world, while socialist critiques are deemed extremist and too dangerous to allow.

    redtea,

    The best part is that when MLs argue on here, they try to rely on western, liberal sources.

    (Note: by liberal I mean pro-capitalist, as in, in the tradition of Smith, Rawls, Bentham, Mill, Hayek, Mises, etc, etc. I’m not talking about the US distinction where the only liberals are the ones with ‘moderate’ politics.)

    monobot,

    Just shows how uninformed this people are.

    Not being able to see that most of the world hates white western countries is just showing they don’t know history.

    They think people in Africa are stupid for taking Chines loans, but don’t stop and think “Why they don’t take our loans which are much better? Maybe our loans are worse???”. And probably think colonialism was good froor India and Africa.

    “We just dropped a bomb on you, how come you don’t like us?😭”

    Pointing that out makes you fake putin-supporting-leftist paid by russia and china… lol 😂. Is there anyone thinking Putin is left? Or communist?

    kbotc,

    Yep, especially when they explicitly start doing the exact shit that the admins expected them to.

    Claim: “We’re just a place to talk about leftist ideals”

    Reality: vote brigading, blaming the west for Russia invading Ukraine, “China supreme number 1, super peaceful”

    There’s “Western propaganda is wrong” and then there’s “any anti-western propaganda is explicitly correct because it is anti-western”

    OurToothbrush,

    Hexbear doesn’t even have downvotes to protect trans users from downvote brigades (and they banned the downvoters)

    Starlet,

    What happened to “defederating should always be a last resort”?

    Hexbear is probably the most inclusive major instance. We’re the only instance with mandatory pronoun tags. And yet we get defederated before we have a chance, while Exploding-Heads got to stay federated for so long? Our admins even went out of their way to make things easy for you, too. Did you even talk to them?

    C4RCOSA,

    No, not a single attempt was made to contact any one of us. I even included the lemmy.world code of conduct and asked the users to abide by it.

    WldFyre,

    Why is mandatory pronoun tags a good thing? Isn’t that just putting more personal info out there than needed?

    Caoldence222,

    I mean they can’t and don’t try to stop you from lying, or even setting it to “none/use name”. All it does in reality is filter out transphobes who get triggered by the requirement, and provide a practical way of knowing what to call someone, rather than the reddit approach of always defaulting to “he” (or maybe they in some more liberal subs)

    AnonymousLlama,
    AnonymousLlama avatar

    It's pretty breathtaking that they're taking a preemptive approach on such a large server, feels like they could have federated for a while and assesses but nope.

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    That would’ve given Hexbear the chance to prove itself. This decision eliminates that possibility. It’s a consciously-made politically-motivated decision.

    Graphy, (edited )

    spent a good hour looking at junk on Hexbear and I’m not sure what you expect them to prove.

    On a post partially* about federating with Lemmy the top comments were about spending their downtime to brigade Beehaw.

    Just seems like another annoying group that wants more attention and idk about y’all but I’m burnt out enough as is.

    i.imgur.com/g0Mltc6.jpg

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    These are jokes mate. People are playing around. The site is steeped in layers and layers and layers of irony. Nobody gives a crap what’s happening over at Beehaw.

    Cassilda,

    I mean, I will think it’s funny when Berhaw collapses due to a struggle session leading to a circular firing squad. I’ll even laugh. But I don’t have the time or energy to contribute to it.

    Graphy,

    Things stop being ironic when people actually do them.

    Here’s the rest of the above thread where the “people who don’t give a crap about Beehaw” tell others how to bug Beehaw.

    i.imgur.com/3Qeinlr.jpg

    I don’t give two titties about Beehaw or Bear

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    They’re not even federated with lemmyworld lmao.

    And what does this prove? Oh god “make an account on beehaw to post on beehaw” or “make an account on a place that has access to that other place” is truly horrible stuff! Truly monstrous. They might be able to TALK to people and say “socialism is good actually” :O Like holy shit grow up.

    Pointing at one or two fucking people discussing that shit is absurd. You think this community will never discuss making accounts on reddit to do reddit stuff? Or w/e. Trump’s next big thing? You think ideologically participating liberals don’t discuss going places and spreading liberalism? or idk. Jesus.

    Graphy,

    They’re not even federated with lemmyworld lmao.

    Wow, it’s almost as if Beehaw didn’t like that people were doing exactly what the above link was telling people to do.

    And what does this prove?

    That if the first comment tree of what I’m guessing is an admin post is filled with “let’s bother someone” then maybe that’s a red flag.

    “make an account on a place that has access to that other place” is truly horrible stuff! Truly monstrous. They might be able to TALK to people and say “socialism is good actually” :O Like holy shit grow up.

    lol wtf are you going on about

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    Wow, it’s almost as if Beehaw didn’t like that people were doing exactly what the above link was telling people to do.

    Mate what part of it being easy to make accounts on Beehaw do you not understand? If you can make an account there, I can make an account there. Get a grip. People will go wherever they want, posing this as some grandiose evil is fucking absurd.

    Graphy,

    lol what are you even on if you think the main purpose of any of this was to discuss your ability to get a beehaw account and notbrigading/ban evasion.

    Lenins2ndCat,
    @Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

    Nobody has been fucking banned ffs. I have main account on all of the major instances, not banned in any of them.

    Graphy,

    I’m very happy for ya, but the thread we were talking about had people asking/telling how to make new accounts because they were banned.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    it’s a post about getting hexbear back to the rest of lemmy, not federating. Don’t know if you’re lying or just didnt care to actually read the title of the thread: Scheduled downtime: 17th June, 9am CDT/2pm UTC

    from the post:

    Whilst we’ll gain the ability to federate with other Lemmy & Mastodon instances, federation will initially be disabled. More on this in future posts.

    you’ll notice that this was explicitly not about federation, they weren’t even sure if they were going to federate at this point in time, this was just to make development easier on Hexbear’s devs

    Graphy,

    Oh my bad, I didn’t realize that a post saying they’ll gain the ability to fed wasn’t at all relative to federating.

    That just changes everything and the comments totally would’ve been different.

    After all my main point wasn’t about annoying people brigading.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Yeah I just don’t really care about this part of the thread you can be right or whatever have a good day

    a_blanqui_slate,

    I’m not going to pretend to be unbiased, being a poster over on chapo.chat (or Hexbear as it’s now [embarrassingly] called), but I hope those of you who support decision can at least understand how frustrating the purported justification is. The notion that hexbear has a consistent ideology to push beyond general amorphic leftism doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny, so in the end the decision to defederate just comes down to “these people have opinions”.

    poVoq,
    @poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

    There are surely some decent people on Hexbear, the problem is that there are a lot that are not, and many have explicitly stated that they want to disrupt other instances. And the final nail in the coffin is IMHO that the admins on Hexbear have explicitly stated that they will not moderate their users for things they do on other instances (making the “be a good neighbor” part in their original announcement a fig leaf at best).

    The entire point of decentralized moderation in the fediverse is that instances are responsible for their member’s conduct on other instances. Any instance that explicitly violates this (as Hexbear admins openly say) needs to be defederated as they actively harm the network.

    a_blanqui_slate,

    the problem is that there are a lot that are not, and many have explicitly stated that they want to disrupt other instances

    It might seem that way but I don’t actually think this extends much beyond young posters getting hyped up about how leftist they are, in the same way a 17 year old newly converted atheist is going to be mildly obnoxious to interact with in any online space.

    explicitly stated that they will not moderate their users for things they do on other instances

    See I saw that but I actually read it the other way; there’s a lot of dumb ways to run afoul of moderation on hexbear, not liking vegans, complaining about certain users, just relatively easy to catch a ban for totally asinine stuff. So I took that to mean that they weren’t going to hold everyone to account for hexbears code of conduct outside of hexbear spaces, so I wouldn’t catch a ban over there for talking about the logical incoherence of certain arguments for veganism here.

    I can’t imagine they mean to say they’re willing to serve as a home base for disruptive and rule-breaking behavior on other instances, and they should absolutely be willing to impose bans for that (at the threat of defederating if not), and if they are saying that they should clearly reconsider, but I still think we should give these systems the opportunity to actually develop as opposed to preemptively siloing us all. lemmy.world admins should open up a dialogue with hexbear ones to see if there is some path forward if they actually do have considers that aren’t just ideological disagreements.

    bionicspud,

    As an instance owner myself some of this is concerning. I understand why lemmy.world would want to defederate from them. I won’t defederate on my instance at this point, but if personal attacks start to happen or rules get broken, then it will be considered.

    AnonymousLlama,
    AnonymousLlama avatar

    This i feel is the best take for most instance owners. Wait, watch and react. Good to keep federation going until you actually observe them participating in bad faith

    PeleSpirit,

    I mean, they said they were going to be shitty, why wouldn’t we believe them?

    gullible,

    I’ve watched this song and dance, and participated in it, for decades. Putting up with gross people because they might feel like being decent is just delaying an ever escalatingly divisive and inevitable bandaid pull. Saw it with voat freezepeach, saw it with trump freezepeach, saw it with several hateful freezepeach sites. The lemmy.world admins did the right thing.

    Caoldence222,

    Ah yes the instance that is like 30-50% transgender and takes an extremely hard line on all bigotry is just like voat and thedonald and nazi freeze-peach instances

    AFKBRBChocolate,

    Let me ask you a question: if an instance popped up that said their purpose was to collect child porn, would you wait until you saw some child porn before defederating? What about something more mild, like if their mission was to dox and harass climate activists?

    I think the exception to defederating being a last resort is when you have an instance that says upfront that they are going to be a problem. In that case, I think we should believe them.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    my jaw just dropped did you just compare a socialist instance to CSAM and doxers bahahahaha

    AFKBRBChocolate,

    That’s such a tired style of argument. No, I didn’t draw any equivalency between them. I made an analogy that was further on the spectrum to make a philosophical point. And then I picked another analogy that I clearly pointed out was way more mild. What’s your answer to the question? When someone says they’re going to do something bad, do you just stand there and wait for them to do it?

    Geert,
    @Geert@lemmy.world avatar

    It is this kind of back and forth we would be having if we didn’t defederate. It’s tiring.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    they’re both shit analogies is my point, why even start with CSAM and nothing hexbear does or would do is close to doxing. Their admins aren’t encouraging brigading and I would be surprised if you could even find 5 comments actually encouraging that in the federation post (and no, saying that you must dunk on the libs with me comrades!!! type posts are not threats to brigade, they’re jokes lol)

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    “it was just a joke, bro” has never convinced anyone.

    Your post history is a pretty good indicator that lemmygrad should be next up on for defederation. Additionally, it was pretty easy to find a comment on one of your posts calling for violence. Upvoted, of course.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    link it then. I’m not seeing anything in my first couple pages of comments… Unless you meant the death to America comment?

    And yes, when people are making jokes amongst themselves they do get to say it’s a joke, it wasn’t meant for you???

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    lemmygrad.ml/comment/570166

    Quote:

    Anti-“tankies” barely hide their racism anymore. Most anti-tankies are cowardly neoliberals (I repeat myself) that need bullets in their heads, if they can’t be reformed.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    holy shit I thought you meant a comment I had made, you went looking through posts on my profile? that’s 8 posts down what are you doing lol. Anyways yeah that’s not against our rules, they didn’t make that comment in someone else’s instance I don’t really understand what the issue is. they weren’t threatening anyone directly, that’s just venting

    joe, (edited )
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s advocating violence. Are you saying advocating violence isn’t against lemmygrad’s rules?

    Edit: and how often are you going to try the “it was just a joke, bro” before it sinks in that this is not a defense?

    ImOnADiet, (edited )
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    because it wasn’t meant for you??? Do you eavesdrop on people’s conversations IRL and get mad at jokes they make? I never even claimed that was a joke, I said it was venting.

    Regardless, what does it matter? You can go to lemmygrad.ml and check our rules. We don’t have the same rules as lemmy.world, and our users are generally pretty good about following them. Should we defederate from lemmy.world because they allow language we don’t allow like b*itch, etc?

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    What do you mean eavesdrop? Do you understand how any of this works? It wasn’t a private conversation, based on the fact that I could link directly to it.

    You’re free to advocate for defederation as you see fit. However, if your instance is the kind that celebrates “venting” (it was just venting, bro!) about murdering people, I’d say it’s pretty incompatible with lemmy.world.

    Honestly, after spending a couple minutes reading your posts and the comments on them, I found myself being reminded of the_donald on reddit.

    @lwadmin

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    God I wish being purposefully obtuse on the internet was bannable. You know what I mean. people make comments on hexbear for other users of hexbear who will understand it’s a joke, not for some random .world anticommunist to come in and pretend they’ve never heard of people joking in online forums before. why did you tag the admin, just use the report button???

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    You misunderstand. I don’t think you said anything against the rules, so the report function isn’t appropriate. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it is your understanding that lemmygrad allows calls for violence.

    And you aren’t going to convince me it was anything other than a call for violence. You can downplay it all you’d like but all that does is paint you in a worse light. Would you approve of “venting” about rape, too? If not, why not?

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    because I view rape as worse than murder, and it’s just generally really weird? I’m not ceding it as a call for violence because they’re not actually calling for anyone specific to die. They didn’t tag any users or specify any irl person, because it’s not meant to be taken 100% seriously. and yes, I can claim that, because 1) it was made for other lemmygrad users to look at and 2) it’s a comment that follows with:

    Their levels of racism, gaslighting, minimizing, projection, annoyance, false equivalency, and laziness drives my anger to a boil that makes the Planck-Temperature look like fucking ice cream-absolute zero with a douse of liquid nitrogen by comparison.

    like come on you can not tell me that is meant to be taken 100% seriously, they’re using extreme hyperbole all throughout the comment

    I would personally dm one of the actual admin accounts (at least that’s what I do), how often do they even check that account they’ve made like 5 posts with it

    Edit: ultimately you could probably find worse comments from some other accounts I know get spicier than that, I’m not trying to “downplay” it

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    Did… you just use “it’s just a joke, bro” again?

    So as long as no specific person is threatened with rape, you should be fine with it, right? What if, instead of an ideology, they said people of a certain heritage should be shot? Still no one specific, but like, “Jewish people” or “people of color”, instead of “anti-tankies”. You still cool with that? If not, why not?

    SovereignState,
    @SovereignState@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    why are you so obsessed with rape analogies it’s fucking weird

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    Because those analogies show the huge gaping flaw in this guy’s stance.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    because they’re not the same thing? are you really trying to equate political ideology to race??? what the actual fuck?

    Yes. the “it’s a joke bro” argument comes from when you go into a random comment thread or argument and make some asinine comment and then pretend it’s a joke. It would be like if I tried to drop some joke that insulted you rn, and said that “it was just a joke”.

    Example:

    ImOnADiet: you must be (some clever joke that implies you’re a fascist)

    Joe: what the fuck did you just call me a nazi?

    ImOnADiet: chill out bro it was just a joke!!!

    Do you really think his anger was enough to make “the Planck-Temperature look like fucking ice cream-absolute zero with a douse of liquid nitrogen by comparison.” do you really think that he wants to actually kill all neoliberals? I know people like to pretend that “ebil tankies” are just some subhuman monsters that would destroy the entire planet because it makes them feel good or something but no he I can promise you he doesn’t actually wanna kill everyone

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m trying to point out that it doesn’t matter who you threaten to murder, or why. You aren’t so radicalized that you don’t see that it’s wrong when it’s one of the “obvious” ones like race, but somehow you’ve been convinced it’s perfectly fine to do it when it’s “anti-tankies”. Does that really make sense to you? Why would one be okay and the other not, if it’s just “venting” and harmless? (hint: because part of you knows it’s not okay)

    I never said anything negative about people on the far-left. You’re projecting to deflect from something you know is wrong. I don’t know if he really wants to shoot people. All I know is that he said people should be killed for what they believe.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    It does matter. this is a common thing on the far left. we view neoliberals as largely responsible for the state of the world, and people express their anger in crazy ways sometimes. I have a friend who threatens to bomb my house, he’s threatened to drive his car through my living room window, and he’s done this in the middle of yelling screaming arguments. I have never for 1 second thought he was serious, it’s a way for him to express anger in a jokey manner. The reason I don’t care about advocating for violence is because ultimately the only way for communists to come to power will be through some level of violence, the state won’t allow us to take power peacefully. what the hell is someone making some hyperbolic statement compared to actually having to use violence in the real world if the need somehow ever arises (I don’t have a lot of faith in the western left). This is normally where tankie accusations get thrown around I doubt you want to hear why I’m a marxist blahblahblah

    I don’t view violence as fundamentally wrong. I abhor that it’s necessary, but advocating pure non-violence in the face of a state that has shown it will murder you with no remorse is both foolish and also ignores the violence that the status quo inflicts on the poor and minorities every single day.

    Also, I’m not sure what exactly sure what you mean about you saying something negative about the far-left. I called you an anticommunist because by and large anticommunists are always pushing for lemmygrad to be defederated. The only other thing was the “im just joking” example which was just me trying to come up with an example on the spot

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    we view neoliberals as largely responsible for the state of the world

    Sure, and some Nazi blames the Jewish people for all the wrongs in the world. Does that mean that it’s justified if a Nazi says all Jewish people should be shot in the head?

    The reason I don’t care about advocating for violence is because ultimately the only way for communists to come to power

    And this doesn’t start your spider sense tingling that maybe you’re on the wrong side of things? Holy shit, do you do even half a minute of introspection? I’m sure fascists would say the same thing. Are they also justified in violence?

    I don’t view violence as fundamentally wrong. I abhor that it’s necessary, but advocating pure non-violence in the face of a state that has shown it will murder you with no remorse is both foolish and also ignores the violence that the status quo inflicts on the poor and minorities every single day.

    Do you think it’s wrong that the ““status quo”” uses violence? After all, you don’t view it as fundamentally wrong, right? So it’s not fundamentally wrong when it’s used against you, either?

    Also, I’m not sure what exactly sure what you mean about you saying something negative about the far-left.

    You set up a straw man about so called “ebil tankies” that I never said or even implied, to justify advocating for violence.

    Here’s the kicker. Take everything you said, and then look at it and tell me if I personally deserve violence. I’m generally capitalist (democratic socialist is just capitalism light). You seem to imply you have no choice but violence against me. Is this truly how feel, or is all this simply to justify some stranger getting upvoted when they advocate violence, so you don’t have to admit your instance is toxic?

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Nazi blames the Jewish people for all the wrongs in the world

    please for the love of god stop equating political ideology and ethnicity, absolutely baffling behavior. I would ask you something about Nazi’s but I’m going to tiptoe around the .world rules here

    And this doesn’t start your spider sense tingling that maybe you’re on the wrong side of things? Holy shit, do you do even half a minute of introspection?

    More than you would think I bet. do you think I just stumbled onto these beliefs happily? I’ve never even been in anything as violent as even a fucking fist fight in my life, I wish more than anything that it didn’t have to be this way. Here’s a quote from the Jakarta Method that sums up why I believe this quite nicely:

    Please read long quote below (emphasis mine)>This was another very difficult question I had to ask my interview subjects, especially the leftists from Southeast Asia and Latin America. When we would get to discussing the old debates between peaceful and armed revolution; between hardline Marxism and democratic socialism, I would ask: “Who was right?” > >In Guatemala, was it Árbenz or Che who had the right approach? Or in Indonesia, when Mao warned Aidit that the PKI should arm themselves, and they did not? In Chile, was it the young revolutionaries in the MIR who were right in those college debates, or the more disciplined, moderate Chilean Communist Party? > >Most of the people I spoke with who were politically involved back then believed fervently in a nonviolent approach, in gradual, peaceful, democratic change. They often had no love for the systems set up by people like Mao. But they knew that their side had lost the debate, because so many of their friends were dead. They often admitted, without hesitation or pleasure, that the hardliners had been right. Aidit’s unarmed party didn’t survive. Allende’s democratic socialism was not allowed, regardless of the détente between the Soviets and Washington. > >Looking at it this way, the major losers of the twentieth century were those who believed too sincerely in the existence of a liberal international order, those who trusted too much in democracy, or too much in what the United States said it supported, rather than what it really supported – what the rich countries said, rather than what they did. > >That group was annihilated.- Vincent Bevins, The Jakarta Method

    Do you think it’s wrong that the ““status quo”” uses violence?

    I don’t oppose the status quo because it uses violence, I oppose it because it uses it against the working class, communists, minorities, really anybody who threatens the status quo. I would support the status quo if it was using that violence to protect the working class, communists, minorities, so that we will one day achieve a communist society where the state no longer even exists to use this violence. As long as the state exists, someone is going to use the violence it holds, and I want that violence to serve the interests of the working class, not the likes of billionaires who are currently hurtling us towards manman climate change disaster, if not extinction.

    “ebil tankies”

    I threw in the part about evil tankies because you seemed to be taking that comment as them seriously 100% wanting every single neoliberal to die and that there’s no hyperbole there, which is very consistent with what people who throw around the term tankie say, they say we’re the scum of the Earth who just find joy in murdering puppies or something. Seemed like where the conversation was going, forgive me, I’ve seen way too many people from .world head down that path so I had my guard up, it’s annoying to have a conversation derailed by it

    tell me if I personally deserve violence.

    I have no clue if you “personally deserve violence”. I don’t really like playing the hypothetical game, and tbh even if I wanted to say so I wouldn’t be able to because of the rules of this instance. If you’re really truly interested in that part of the conversation we could take it somewhere else. I wouldn’t be any more mean than I am now, I reserve that for people who come in to troll on lemmygrad and nazis

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    please for the love of god stop equating political ideology and ethnicity

    Explain to me the difference between advocating to murder one group and not the other. From where I’m standing, your stance lines up perfectly with a fascist’s, just on the other end of the spectrum.

    do you think I just stumbled onto these beliefs happily?

    No, I think you were radicalized.

    [Your long, pointless quote]

    The person you are defending wasn’t talking about any government or world power; they said “anti-tankies” who couldn’t be re-educated should be killed. Who does that sound like? Next you’ll be advocating for rounding up all the “anti-tankies” and putting them into “reeducation camps”. Right?

    I oppose it because it uses it against the working class, communists, minorities, really anybody who threatens the status quo.

    So? You don’t have an issue with using violence to get what you want, why is it wrong for the ““status quo”” to do the same thing? Your sophomoric stance is “violence is okay when it’s used against the bad people” but who the “bad people” are is entirely subjective. Do you not see how this fails even at a conceptual level? What would you advocate someone who thinks tankies are the “bad people” do? Should they resort to violence? Is that the appropriate action? If not, why?

    Let’s take a slightly longer view of this. Let’s say your dream comes true and “anti-tankies” are “reeducated” or killed, and the big bad ““status quo”” is finally defeated. What happens if a group of “anti-tankies” grows in your new utopia, when you’re the ““status quo””? Do you resort to violence?

    You are what you claim to abhor.

    just find joy in murdering puppies

    You have spent several comments over several hours defending murdering people; your stance has long since moved from “it was just a joke, bro” to “I agree that murdering people is the solution”. Do you really not understand how that makes you appear? All this comment chain required was you to say “yeah, man, that’s messed up-- calls for violence are wrong”. Yet, here we are.

    I have no clue if you “personally deserve violence”

    What?? This was a softball question to help you redeem yourself. The only acceptable answer is “No”. Holy shit.

    @lwadmin

    ImOnADiet, (edited )
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Well you really weren’t having a conversation in good faith, dumb of me to expect better I guess, I’m a tankie after all

    I’m not going to keep talking to someone who refuses to admit that people use extreme hyperbole. I’m not going to sit here and fucking tell you another 30 times that is obviously not a fucking plan of action that user wants to commit.

    You also totally sidestepped my quote, which wasn’t really about his little comment. it was to explain why I believe violence will be necessary to take power, my belief in which this quote was your response

    And this doesn’t start your spider sense tingling that maybe you’re on the wrong side of things? Holy shit, do you do even half a minute of introspection? I’m sure fascists would say the same thing. Are they also justified in violence

    I’m not going to keep talking in hypotheticals. this is debate pervertry of the worst kind, I’m a marxist we believe in keeping things grounded in the real world, which is why I linked you that quote. I have actual hard fucking evidence (of which that quote is literally just the smallest part, we could sit here for fucking days going over everything the United States alone has done to maintain power) that the capitalist world order will resort to extreme violence greater than any socialist state has ever dreamed of using to kill all who stand in their way of profit.

    I dont give a shit about redeeming myself, I didn’t advocate violence against you in the slightest, but I’m saying how could you believe I’m telling the truth? I’m trying to follow the rules of this instance, so if I were to answer that you do deserve violence I would be breaking the rules, why do you keep concern trolling like this

    Anyways I’ll let you have the last word, done engaging after this

    Haibane,

    deleted_by_author

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  • ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    so they can participate in other comms? also 1) that’s a lemmygrad comment we’re discussing, please actually read through the convos, and 2) It’s just like Reddit, there are a ton of inside jokes that don’t make sense unless you spend a certain amount of time there but that doesn’t mean you can’t show up and still enjoy it, but when someone who’s used to it goes “yeah they’re doing a bit” you don’t go accuse them of doing the insult disguised at a joke thing

    Geert,
    @Geert@lemmy.world avatar

    I am sure if you report anyone for calling you a b*tch there will be consequences. “No name-calling” is in the rules.

    See it is discussions like this that would happen all the time. No need for this crap.

    ImOnADiet,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    what? I report people on my server all the time, I check their lemmy.world accounts I’m fairly certain I’ve never seen one actually banned from .world other than like 1 nazi, every other one is banned by lemmygrad admins only

    AnonymousLlama,
    AnonymousLlama avatar

    People can have different opinions on topics mate. This whole "one user said XYZ I don't like, we should defederate" needs to end.

    Geert,
    @Geert@lemmy.world avatar

    It is NOT one user.

    joe,
    @joe@lemmy.world avatar

    One user advocated for violence, the comment is upvoted, and it’s a top level comment on a post the guy I responded to posted, so I can be reasonably sure he saw it. So, the options we have in front of us are that he did the right thing and reported it, but the mods/admins didn’t act, or he saw it and didn’t report it.

    Which one screams “we want these people to be federated with us”?

    bionicspud, (edited )

    I’ve defederated from lemmynsfw.com because someone subscribed to them and I saw the pornography on my instance and that is against one of the site rules. The same would be said for any other pornography or breaking of site rules no matter where it came from. At this point though, hexabear have not harassed anybody on my instance or broken any of the site rules, so there is no basis to defederate them. If that does happen, then a decision will be made.

    jake_eric,

    I’m gonna come out and say, even with the statement, I’m not in favor of preemptive defederation like this.

    I know the admins of an instance are hosting us basically out of the goodness of their own hearts, and I appreciate that. And I understand they can do whatever they want, and we can move to a different instance if we want. I get it.

    But I joined .world because I wanted a neutral instance that would connect with pretty much everyone unless they were particularly problematic. Could hexbear be particularly problematic? Sure, maybe. But I think there’s a big difference between defederating in response to a problem and defederating in anticipation of a potential problem, especially since the users aren’t given a chance to discuss it. Like, I know we’re not technically entitled to give our input if we’re not admins, but I think it would be nice, y’know?

    If it was just some small instance of trolls that’s one thing, but hexbear is actually quite a big instance, so this is a very impactful decision. I don’t like it being made preemptively behind the scenes like this.

    astraeus,
    @astraeus@programming.dev avatar

    The users already made their intentions clear with their instance rules acting as proxy. It’s an aggressive stance and it is not conducive to fair and open conversations about anything.

    freehugs,

    Seconded

    APassenger,

    Is joining hexbear an option for you? It’s not like we’re obligated to only have one account across the lemmyverse.

    jake_eric,

    Sure, but having fewer accounts is easier: that’s the whole purpose of federation in the first place, isn’t it?

    It’s fine now, but I haven’t been on Lemmy for that long, and I don’t want to have to make a new account every few months to see a new instance.

    Lifecoach5000,

    Well I think this is just the nature fediverse as well. You gotta respect the admin and it’s really not super hard to use multiple logins with different instances via an app.

    Jilanico,
    @Jilanico@lemmy.world avatar

    If Lemmy starts to allow seamless migration of accounts across instances, this will become less of an issue. But I suspect creating multiple accounts isn’t going to be palatable to most users.

    Zaktor,

    A single login solution is to find a third party that federates with both lemmy.world and hexbear. Hexbear’s list is pretty limited so it’d have to be one of those, but unless others follow lemmy.world’s choice you’ll be able to see and post on both instances.

    solrize,

    Maybe “federation” or something like it should actually take place on the client side, so you’d join instances with almost the ease of subscribing to communities. Then the client code would handle combining feeds, using the right credentials to post to a given place, funnelling DM’s from multiple instances to a single inbox, etc.

    I think if we are here now, the fediverse vision has already failed. Defederation is a last resort yet this is the third round of drama in the 1 month past redditgeddon? Two actual defederations and one extended discussion set off by a single troll on another instance.

    So, I think fediverse decentralization hasn’t yet gone far enough. Thus the idea of handling instance coordination on the client rather than leaving it up to server admins.

    MisterFrog,
    @MisterFrog@lemmy.world avatar

    The more servers we defederate with, the fewer posts will show up in our feeds from everywhere. People aren’t going to make an account for everywhere. I’m not particularly sad about this server in particular, but in general the Lemmy.world admin trying to stop people running into content that isn’t illegal is annoying and him imposing his ideology on lemmy.world, which paints itself as neutral.

    MisterFrog,
    @MisterFrog@lemmy.world avatar

    The more servers we defederate with, the fewer posts will show up in our feeds from everywhere. People aren’t going to make an account for everywhere. I’m not particularly sad about this server in particular, but in general the Lemmy.world admin trying to stop people running into content that isn’t illegal is annoying and him imposing his ideology on lemmy.world, which paints itself as neutral.