Kolanaki, (edited )
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

I just browse their communities from another instance. It’s not like you have to be a member to engage with a particular instance. It might harder to find an instance’s community on your instance because nobody on your instance has subscribed to the community, kick-starting the feed to start populating with its content, but using the outside/3rd party instance/community search tools, I’ve subscribed to several communities across several instances, all from my preferred instance account.

The only benefit I could see to being specifically on Beehaw is that you would be somewhat shielded from content coming from instances they defederated with; and it’s a big blanket ban. Maybe some of the communities on a blocked instance aren’t piles of shit. I, personally, would rather start with an entirely open instance and block what I don’t want to see myself, over letting someone else make that choice for me. There are very few instances I would block in their entirety so far that I’ve seen.

jarfil,

would rather start with an entirely open instance and block what I don’t want to see myself

The thing is, federation is a bit… “weird”?


I mean, a federated instance… doesn’t do any federation by default, it just sits there… until “some user” on the instance decides to subscribe to a community on a federated instance… at which point the instance both starts receiving posts from that community, and starts showing them in the All feed.

So the All of an instance, is an aggregated “everything someone on the instance has subscribed to”… which is somewhat of a nonsense: why should an instance owner let decide random users what the instance shows in its public feed?

That means instance owners have to curate which instances do they allow their users to pull into their instance’s All… and thus, defederation.

But even if there was a separate “public All” and a “members only All”… and even if people could filter out stuff from the “members only All” feed of their instance… the instance would still be pulling the content from other instances. That means bandwidth, CPU, RAM, and storage… for stuff that maybe just a single user of the instance is interested in. It makes little sense.


Things get much worse, when a ton of users from a large instance, with a completely different mentality, start commenting on random communities from other instances in their instance’s All feed, just because maybe a single user subscribed to it back at some point, without taking the time to get to know the rules of the target instance (maybe they’ll read the community’s sidebar, maybe they won’t).

At the very least, there should be a prominent warning about “YOU ARE COMMENTING ON ANOTHER INSTANCE, here are its rules”. At the most extreme, breaking the rules of another instance should have consequences at your home one.

Then, and only then, maybe, a large instance with a lot of resources, could pull content from a ton of other instances, and each user could just filter the All feed however they wanted.


But that seems unrealistic, and would lead to centralization, which is the opposite of what the whole concept of federation is about.

I think the current state could be improved, but having the Fediverse split into groups of like-minded instances that gravitate towards each other, is not a bad thing.

Discoverability could be improved, by having tools that show more clearly which instances “belong together”, so users could pick any instance of the group to access to all others. Then each user could filter out the instances “from the group”, at least at the app level, but maybe also directly at the server to reduce bandwidth usage… and use an app to maybe aggregate communities across groups if they wish.


Identity management is a separate point: maybe you want to participate in different instance groups with the same identity, maybe have a different one, or even more than one, per like-minded group. Maybe you want to be a furry programmer, but an anonymous porn watcher, a tinkerer with a real face, and a clown in a pointy hat shitposter.

All of those should be allowed, and even have features to make it easier to not “double dip” (I think Sync may be going in that direction).

PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

Beehaw seems like it breeds a toxic environment that’s welcoming to transphobes, so I don’t think I’d want to join

Fades,

I’ve never seen that in beehaw, only positive inclusivity… care to share some examples?

PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

Their guidelines say you shouldn’t keep responding to someone who says they don’t want to keep talking. So let’s say someone uses a slur that not everyone agrees is a slur, like the R word. I can’t downvote it, so I report it and reply “no slurs”. They respond “I didn’t use a slur and I don’t want to discuss it with you”. Well now it’s down to the moderators to remove the content, and if they don’t agree with me or they aren’t educated then I can’t do a thing about it.

Back on Reddit people used to use my disability as an insult all the time. I’d downvote, report, and comment. I’d pester the bigot so they’d learn that using slurs is more trouble than it’s worth, and lots of times the moderators would say “that’s not a slur” and leave the comment up, and then 4 weeks later the Reddit admins would come and remove the comment. But by then I’d already persuaded the bigot that using slurs is a huge hassle that only leads to trouble. I had a system. I could fight bigotry myself even though I wasn’t a mod.

On beehaw I’m just supposed to trust that the moderators are perfect? No thanks, I’m an anarchist. I don’t trust anyone unconditionally. It would take a whole lot of effort to persuade me that beehaw is a safe space. Because to me, a safe space is a space where I’m able to defend myself when nobody else will.

stevedidWHAT,
@stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

How do you know that it worked? Did they just block you/stop responding? Couldn’t you have taken that high ground already?

Surely you’re not arguing by fighting fire with fire you put it out.

jarfil,

If you had a different nick, I’d ask you what in tarnation made you think that… but it’s hard to take you seriously like this.

PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

Cool, my new username is defusing hostile situations

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

With that username, I feel like you’re just mad that they called you out for being a fetishist and not a true ally.

PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

I’m not a fetishist or an ally, I’m a gay. I’m gay for people who share my gender identity. Also I’ve never been on Beehaw

What’s up with this heteronormativity? You think everyone who’s attracted to fat enbies is a cishet person? Jesus Christ.

lagomorphlecture,

I literally told them I like their animal community and want to look at animals and mentioned how I feel about bunnies and that was that, I’m an official beehaw member who can look at animals whilst signed on to beehaw lol they’re not for everyone and that’s fine because they’re not trying to be for everyone. If it does seem like a place you want to join they’re not insane about sign up, just give them a good reason you want to be there besides like “trolling lolz”.

HawlSera,

Just don’t ban me for an arbitrary reason you’ll never explain and you’re worlds better than Reddit

jarfil,

From what I’ve seen, you’d have a clear reason, and at least a chance to reply, apologize, and/or change your behavior… but you need to follow the “be nice” rule, and if you don’t agree, it’s the door. So not a good place for shitposting, trolling, sealioning, making fun of others, or general 4chan-ing.

HawlSera,

See I don’t do any of that to begin with, Reddit just loves to Power Trip

jarfil,

Yeah, those are not even banned on Reddit, only disagreeing with how a mod twists the rules is a permabannable offense, and they no longer care about having a million more or less users.

It’s kind of interesting how Beehaw has fewer rules, and its mods are at the same time stricter and more tolerant.

vox,
@vox@sopuli.xyz avatar

usually all you need is just need 1 sentence.

Diabolo96, (edited )

I wrote an essay because i want to brag about being able to write an essay in a foreign language. You can’t stop me , muahahaha !

MJKee9,

My response was “because I’d like to be a member of a second instance.”. They rejected my application.

TheProtagonist,

Why would I want to join “Beehaw”? Is it any better than Lemmyworld?

Limit,

Don’t know about beehaw but lemmy.world was really getting on my nerves with how slow it was and how often it was down. Lemm.ee has been a much better experience for me.

TheProtagonist,

There had been some downtimes, apparently due to DDoS attacks, but since then everything is fine. Actually I am not a fan of such elitarian approaches, with a hand-picked user base and too strict moderation. I am actually quite happy on Lemmyworld and was curious what would make Beehaw so special. But I’ll keep Lemm.ee in my mind as a possible alternative.

Corkyskog,

Beehaw is just defedrated from most instances and heavily moderated. So it’s a lot of LGBT+ and people who were on other instances and got fed up with tankies.

PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

I haven’t been on beehaw because it sounds like the kind of place that would have bi lesbian discourse or sysmedicalism or something along those lines

jarfil,

Hey, no cheating!.. /jk

It has a different moderation style and culture. Best explained in the “rules” of the instance, which is a single “be nice” and some commentary. Admins are strict, but fair, and give you a chance to change your behavior if you accidentally break the rule.

TheProtagonist,

Their philosophy and rules were a bit of TL;DR for me.

EDIT: I guess I would be in constant fear of breaking the rules there…

jarfil,

Hehe, the philosophy docs are a honeypot. There is still only a single rule, they just explain why, and what that means. But if you expect a lot of rules, I can see how their size can discourage someone.

They’ve a added some simplified examples, but maybe the honeypot idea has its own merits… 🤔

TheProtagonist,

It worked on me… 😉 Anyway, I am quite happy here in Lemmyworld and this one also does not defederate that much. It’s possible that Beehaw is the little happy island for the people there, and I wish them to remain happy, but I prefer an instance with less rules and less defederation.

Franzia,

I know some peeps are annoyed at the thought of instance drama or writing essays etc. But this is exactly what I wanted.

3TH4Li4,

If there is anything new for Lemmy as far as I have joined, it’s always the heckin’ instance wars, just pick one and be happy with it Also, there are a lot of instances that require written stuff for joining as an extra filter to avoid bots and trolls ¯_(ツ)_/¯

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

You need to put \\ for the right arm to show up correctly.

Graphine,

Honestly I’m considering leaving even .world. Mods have just been feeling too Reddit-like recently.

I guess that’s the nice thing about the fediverse though.

jarfil,

Beehaw’s mods are definitely not Reddit-like. They’re hard on enforcing the “be nice” rule, so even veiled personal attacks are off the table, and you better be nice to the mods too, or they’ll show you the door.

Whether that aligns more or less with what you’re looking for… you decide. As you said, it’s the nice thing about the Fediverse 🙂

riodoro1,

Holy shit guys. If they wanted to have that requirement let them have it, if people wanted to fulfill it and join its good for them. If they wanted to defederate, thats ok too.

Not everyone needs to do what you do.

SharkEatingBreakfast,

I wrote 3 - 4 sentences and got in.

They want people to join who will make an effort to contribute to their community.

So their “”“essay”“” requirement is working if it keeps out people who think that writing a couple lines is “mental”.

SpaceCadet,
@SpaceCadet@sopuli.xyz avatar

I earnestly wrote a couple of lines, and then a week later they replied that they don’t have enough information to decide, at which point I just threw my hands up and decided for them. I don’t need that kind of pedantic hoop jumping in my private life.

SharkEatingBreakfast,

They want to know if your views will mesh well with the community they are trying to curate before they let you in.

I browsed Beehaw for a bit before deciding that it did, and mentioned it in my application.

I think they’re a bit more choosy now, as I used to see folks spouting things like “can you not use the word ‘minorities’? It shows a bias. You need to address everyone, not give preferential treatment,” or some other dumb horseshit.

Honestly, I think they just don’t want to have to deal with people saying stupid shit and they’re tired of trying to argue with people who A). genuinely hold stupid, shitty beliefs, or B). are trolling/pretending to be stupid in order to get a reaction.

More power to them, if that’s the case.

PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

So what’s their opinion on bi lesbians, sysmedicalism, xenogenders, and cluster B ableism?

Stinkywinks,

deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • B1naryB0t,

    I bet they’re glad to not get people like you who use ableist slurs.

    Corkyskog,

    Ableist slur

    What is it a slur against people with crippling IBS? Lol

    Stinkywinks,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • NuPNuA,

    Wait, is this actually a thing they make you do? That’s mental.

    stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s pretty common to gate communities to keep shitters out

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
    Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar
    jarfil,

    Kbin is part of the Fediverse, 𝖄𝖔𝖚’𝖗𝖊 𝖔𝖓𝖊 𝖔𝖋 𝖚𝖘 𝖓𝖔𝖜

    pastthepixels,

    Don’t forget people on single user instances too! It feels pretty good watching drama and not having to worry about how this affects me.

    TwinTusks,

    Theres drama?

    mrbubblesort,
    mrbubblesort avatar

    Seriously, I must've hit the jackpot or something picking instances because it's been pretty much nothing but a stable, drama-free experience for me there

    atocci,
    atocci avatar

    It's nice here, but we aren't totally safe from drama either. In the Kbin Codeberg for example, issue #196 attracted the ire of another developer

    BaroqueInMind,
    BaroqueInMind avatar

    Care to elaborate what was said?

    betterdeadthanreddit,

    It’s not overly long or complicated but here’s a summary:

    Original: Codeberg Kbin/kbin-core, Issue

    OP: Hey Kbin dev, you’re using my code without attribution.

    [Comments from other users]

    Kbin dev: Oops, my bad. Here are a couple ways I can fix it. What would you prefer?

    OP: Attribution.

    [Additional comments about license stuff and the nature of open source software]

    Kbin dev: Working on it.

    OP: [Details of suggested fix].

    Fix

    Issue closed.

    WarmSoda,

    I need to take my blood pressure medication now. Thanks a lot.

    LinkOpensChest_wav,

    I saw the post they’re referencing, and it was a lot more heated than they’re making it out to be. It was ultimately resolved, but it would definitely qualify as drama imo

    Anonymousllama,

    I was part of that discussion. There was an ongoing attribution issue where a person claimed their open source project wasn’t being attributed correctly (where it looks like kbin is forked from another older project)

    With the Reddit migration and a range of other issues, old mate who manages kbin didn’t get around to fixing the attribution (choosing to focus on getting the server stable and fixing actual issues)

    It got brough up again last week in a not so flattering post and within a day or two it was resolved (putting to bed the idea that old mate is actually out to steal people’s code)

    Not a great situation overall but it’s great it’s been resolved 🦙🦙🦙

    original_ish_name,

    Kbin uses codeberg? I might move to kbin because they’re chad

    Anonymousllama,

    It’s a great place, everyone’s been smashing through tickets getting things improved, but like with all open source stuff it takes a while to push out the good stuff

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
    Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

    Plus the image caching issue sometimes leads to hilarious results

    yukichigai,
    yukichigai avatar

    Beehaw: You should join our instance.

    Also Beehaw: We're defederating from two of the largest instances.

    gullible,

    It’s a safe space and the fediverse rapidly expanded tenfold. Beehaw has stated outright that they want to refederate with the big instances, but are delaying until mod tools improve enough to allow them to maintain their safe space for their gaggle of vulnerable folks in the wake of the severely increased workload.

    dmmeyournudes,

    Safe space, or echo chamber?

    LinkOpensChest_wav,

    Gotta love how spending time with like-minded people has now been framed as an “echo chamber.” I blame reddit, since that’s where I first encountered this nonsense.

    I’m fine with my “echo chambers.” We are able to have really in-depth, adult discussions about things like LGBTQIA issues, mental health, and politics without having to constantly swat away a bunch of sea lions.

    PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES, (edited )

    I argue with fascists, exclus, medicalists, and sexists all the time and I’ve never met a sealion. But I have met neurotypical people who expect their sense of cognitive empathy to work on neurodivergent people, and then project all sorts of BS onto them for having a different opinion. IME that term is a dogwhistle for ableism.

    EDIT: Just looked up Beehaw’s guidelines and apparently it’s against the guidelines to accuse someone of sealioning so maybe Beehaw isn’t so bad

    LinkOpensChest_wav,

    You’ve never spent any time on reddit, I take it?

    That’s a whole colony of sea lions.

    Lucky you, but I encounter sea lions all the time. People like Tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro have formed entire careers around sea-lioning.

    PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

    Well see, sealioning is feigning ignorance, and it’s a simple fact that bigots really are that ignorant. I’ve never met anyone who understood progressive issues and still disagreed, except for amoral people who chose to have little investment and wouldn’t bother to engage in sealioning. This idea you’re proposing that there are people who pretend to be ignorant doesn’t make any sense to me. If they are acting like foolish bigots, I choose to believe them.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    Had to look up “sea lion.” That’s something I’ve seen a lot of, but never knew there was a specific term for.

    LinkOpensChest_wav,

    Yeah, it’s sadly ubiquitous. I don’t think a day goes by when I don’t witness several sea lions in the wild

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    Tucker “I’m just asking questions” Carlson must be the poster child for them.

    Corkyskog,

    I’ve been running into something adjacent, but doesn’t quite fit that description. Basically people use the tactics of Sealioning but the motivation seems to be just reframing the conversation to whatever they wanted to talk about, rather than necessarily pissing you off. It can be just as annoying though.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, that wouldn’t count because they’re just being a standard asshole who wants to control the conversation rather than trying to troll with bad faith questions.

    PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

    Sealioning is an accusation that rests on assuming someone else’s intentions. You can’t ever know for sure if someone is a sealion, because people aren’t mind readers. I usually see sealioning accusations thrown by neurotypicals at autistic people, because they can’t read our emotions like they’re used to and that freaks them out and they assume hostile intent.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, it could be mistaken for that if a person isn’t paying attention. But the difference between acting in good faith and not is usually pretty obvious as it goes on.

    PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

    Well that’s a tremendous amount of faith in your ability to read other people’s minds. And given you make no distinction between reading the minds of neurotypicals and autistics, I’d bet good money that you’re frequently wrong when you try to read autistic minds. Which would make your actions towards autistic people frequently cruel.

    Agamemnon,
    @Agamemnon@lemmy.world avatar

    Autistic mind here: Reading yours is giving me a headache. It’s like debugging a minecraft mod after patch day. Please reset aggression level to zero and run a malware scan.

    PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES, (edited )

    Yeah, I’m neurodivergent in a lot of different ways, and every one of them reduces the efficacy of neurotypical empathy. That sensation you’re experiencing right now from talking to me is the same way neurotypical people feel when they talk to you. No wonder neurotypicals are so ableist to autistics, talking to us causes them pain. But it’s still not right for them to demand we think like them, and it’s still not right for you to demand I think like you. What we have to learn is how to coexist together.

    And any coexistence we reach isn’t going to involve always assuming we can read minds effectively. It’s just an unrealistic standard.

    PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES,

    Anyway, maybe it wouldn’t hurt so much if you weren’t trying to read my mind without consent. No means no, but you didn’t even ask. No wonder you’re in pain, you tried to delve inside my mind and I kicked you back out.

    dmmeyournudes,

    You do realize that associating with primarily people who share the same views or values as you is literally an echo chamber right?

    trashgirlfriend,

    Sometimes people want to have a conversation without someone with the username DMmeYourNudes wanting to debate them.

    dmmeyournudes,

    That’s an echo chamber lol.

    trashgirlfriend,

    No, it’s a community of people discussing things that they know a lot about.

    You’re basically going “Oh, you don’t want the pigeon to join your chess tournament? Are you scared it will outplay you while shitting on the board?”

    dmmeyournudes,

    Yes, because everyone who joins beehaw has a doctorate or is a verified expert in their field lol. It ain’t that deed dude. The exclude people because they don’t want to be told their views are wrong regardless of the truth. That’s an echo chamber.

    trashgirlfriend,

    Nah, especially for stuff like LGBT issues, it’s likely the beehaw users are a lot more informed than the average lemmy user.

    It’s actually impossible to have a normal conversation about LGBT issues or left of centre politics with people like you being obnoxious and shitting all over the chessboard.

    dmmeyournudes,

    thats an echo chamber LOL.

    LinkOpensChest_wav,

    Nope. That term is only used by sea lions and shitlords. It’s one of those terms like “virtue signaling” that immediately lets you know the person has less to offer society than a common housefly or roach.

    dmmeyournudes,

    Really inclusive to just reject anyone who criticizes you lol.

    gullible,

    It’s literally a safe space, you absolute sea lion.

    Anonymousllama,

    Sounds like it’s a bit of both tbh

    gmtom,

    Please go back to reddit

    yukichigai,
    yukichigai avatar

    That's nice and all, but "join our instance" and "we're defederated from the other two biggest instances" are in direct opposition to each other, doesn't matter what excuses you use.

    Natanael,

    Unless you use a client with multiaccount support

    gullible,

    Only if you don’t think about it are they not mutually exclusive ideas. Safe space first, increase size of safe space second.

    jarfil, (edited )

    Beehaw: You should join our instance

    Where does it say that?

    This isn’t Reddit/Meta/𝕏, they don’t get paid for selling more ads. If you don’t know why to join, then don’t 🙂

    Beehaw: We’re defederating from two of the largest instances.

    Is “largest” a good thing? Reddit is even larger, is that better?

    Not all people want to be with all others all the time, smaller instances of like-minded people make it easier to pick your own crowds.

    lwuy9v5,

    I’m still a little sad that both solarpunk and beehaw just straight up didn’t respond to my essays back when there weren’t that many lemmy instances yet.

    aeki,
    @aeki@slrpnk.net avatar

    I’m on both of those and never got an email, I just tried logging in after a while and it worked.

    LinkOpensChest_wav,

    I don’t remember if I ever got an email either. I just figured out I was approved once I was able to log on.

    I also must say I never wrote an essay lol. Just a few words.

    theatomictruth,

    Same, and I literally just wrote “I think Beehaw would be a good fit for me”

    MarvinKMooney,

    They denied me when I wrote basically that, and apparently when you are denied that username is then banned.

    krellor,

    They had a bug where if you were denied it was supposed to send a notification with a link allowing you to elaborate, but those notices didn't go out. Then, when you've applied but gotten stuck in the unapproved state, your user account exists but is disabled, this you can't make a new account with that same name. Sort of a sucky situation all around.

    And009,

    I like reddthat, no issues so far

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