FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Equality Act affords protection not only to trans-identified young people, but also to those who are gender-critical.

It shouldn't, because that second group doesn't deserves rights.

apotheotic,

I appreciate the sentiment, but even those who seek to take everything away from me deserve rights. I hate “gender-critical” shmoes with all my heart, but even they should have rights.

Now, whether “being allowed to have a say in someone else’s gender” should be a right… Fuck no

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I hate “gender-critical” shmoes with all my heart, but even they should have rights.

Not to be "gender critical" they shouldn't.

apotheotic,

I agree!

MossyFeathers, (edited )

The new legal analysis by Monaghan was commissioned by a family in Brighton who are arguing that their child’s school helped their child to socially transition without their consent, because it was using the toolkit. The family wrote to the council on Friday threatening possible legal action if it does not withdraw the guidance within two weeks.

The child’s mother, who asked not to be named in order to protect the identity of her child, told the Observer: “Our child was socially ­transitioned at school by a group of teachers who are quite active in the trans rights arena, despite our child’s complex mental health needs, trauma and autism.”

She said she and her husband “thought we had agreed a unique plan with the head” that the school should support only what she called a “pre-transition phase” until the child left secondary school. Instead, she said, they had been “shocked” to discover the school had supported their child socially transitioning. The family is now estranged from their child.

Seriously? You’re so disgusted by your child identifying as something other than their assigned gender at birth (often shortened to AGAB) that you’ve lost the ability to love and give them affection? The alternative is that you’ve been so shitty to your child as a result of their desire to be different from their AGAB that you’ve driven them away and they’re no longer able to show you love and affection. Either way, you’re the asshole here.

Edit: For Americans, because I had to look this up: secondary school is similar to middle/high school (in the US, middle school is generally 1113yrs old, high school is typically 1418). So they’re basically saying that their kid isn’t allowed to social transition until they’re an adult and the parents can no longer legally control what their child does with their life.

Edit 2: decided to change the wording to try and be a bit more accommodating. Originally I had used phrases like, “their birth gender” and “birth sex” because I didn’t want to confuse people who weren’t aware of the nuance or terminology associated with “assigned gender at birth”, and because personally, phrasing things that way doesn’t really bother me and so I struggle to see the point. Still, I’m changing it because I want to make sure I don’t unintentionally cause someone dysphoria.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

other than what they were born as

assigned at birth; let's not acquiesce some doctor with a crank habit on 2 hours sleep is correct in what they say on government paperwork off a 2 second glance at baby genitals.

Either way, you’re the asshole here.

Big yeah.

MossyFeathers,

I worded it that way because not everyone knows what AGAB, AMAB, and AFAB mean. I agree with your sentiment though.

AVincentInSpace,

In this house we treat medical professionals with respect

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

In this house we treat medical professionals with respect

In this house we hate cops and a person who participates in condemning someone to a [assigned] "sex at birth" prison is a cop.

MossyFeathers,

I mean, I can change it if it really bothers you that much. I just didn’t want to potentially confuse people by using terms they might not be familiar with. Ironically it seems I might have done that anyway.

To be clear, I’m trans-femme enby, though I’m not exactly in a place right now to be able to medically or socially transition irl. Despite that, people saying “assigned at birth” or “birth sex” or whatever doesn’t really bother me. To me it’s just different ways of saying “this is who they were thought to be until they discovered their true selves”.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I mean, I can change it if it really bothers you that much.

"I hate cops" wasn't a reply to you, friend. Nor about you. I was calling doctors cops and doing so in response to someone saying "respect doctors" as if that forgives their participation in systems of oppression. To be clear I respect doctors in so far as they treat gunshot wounds, hate them in so far as they snitch on the fact to the feds.

I thought about explaining the reasoning for the distinction I insisted on making (it was for others' benefit) but I didn't want to reply to you again 'cause I feared coming off as a dick.

MossyFeathers,

Eh, I figured you probably weren’t talking about me, but I wanted to make sure. I just wanted to make sure I hadn’t made you upset, so no worries. I decided to change it anyway.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I just wanted to make sure I hadn’t made you upset

We are and have been good. I do want to stress however that not having transitioned by circumstance or choice does not mean you own anyone deference during intracommunal discussions.

MossyFeathers,

I’m aware, just wanting to be considerate, that’s all.

AVincentInSpace,

i do not know how to explain to you that the concept of an assigned sex at birth is not a system of oppression

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

i do not know how to explain

Yeah, I have trouble explaining falsehoods, too.

Me? I tend to avoid the difficulty by not spreading lies, but you do whatever works for you, darlin'.

AVincentInSpace, (edited )

the M or F on one’s birth certificate is not an immutable doctrine, it’s a jumping off point. it’s a starting place so you can see if you like one side before switching to the other. more importantly, it’s a starting point that works for 99% of the population, and the remaining 1% are hindered by it less and less as social progress is made. once we as a society reach the point where there is exactly zero stigma attached to deciding you like the other side, or the middle, or some other fantastical place better than the side your penis, vagina, or lack thereof put you on, thus rendering that decision by your dad’s sperm cell irrelevant to anything besides how you are referred to the first handful of years of your life until you’re old enough to understand the difference and make your own decision, then I don’t see the point in going further than that.

you might as well call giving an infant a name a system of oppression, since trans/enby people invariably change theirs.

also, whether you believe doctors are cops or not, you do not get to call people meth heads based on the fact that you don’t like them.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Why are we forcing people into "sides" if we know for a fact they can be erroneous?

That creates a privileged class for who their assignment is congruent with their conception of self (cisgender people)
alongside a disprivileged out group forced to navigate transitioning out of an assignment they never should have gotten (transgender people)

you might as well call giving an infant a name a system of oppression

I do.

AVincentInSpace,

Why do programs have default settings if they’re not the ideal settings for everyone?

As I said in my previous comment, why shouldn’t the objective be to reach a point where transitioning is completely painless?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Why do programs have default settings if they’re not the ideal settings for everyone?

I don't think you can really compare screen resolution with the establishment of a disprivileged class that didn't exist

As I said in my previous comment, why shouldn’t the objective be to reach a point where transitioning is completely painless?

Why should a person need to transition? Why do cis people need or deserve the privileged status there being a default they adhere to grants them?

AVincentInSpace, (edited )

I don’t think you can really compare screen resolution with the establishment of a disprivileged class that didn’t exist

I beg to differ. Screen readers aren’t enabled by default, and disabled people who need to access them often need the assistance of someone who can see the screen in order to enable them. Mainstream platforms such as Android are better about this (turning on the screen reader by holding both volume buttons down for 5 seconds), but even then people are required to know about the shortcut. I don’t think anyone would argue we should remedy this by turning the screen reader on by default, no? You could ask whether to turn on the screen reader during first time device setup, I suppose, but this analogy falls apart somewhat when applied to newborn babies.

You have to call children something before they’re old enough to understand what gender is. Pose the question to them at age five and whatever they tell you is their gender from there on out, but there needs to be something before then. Five years is a long time for someone to not have a name.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Are you describing ableism as an argument against the existence of privileged classes??

AVincentInSpace,

No???

Of course privileged classes exist. I just described one and described a way to lessen the impact of its existence, since eliminating it entirely is completely impossible.

So too is the case with infants having names and genders.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

lessen the impact of its existence

You mean like not assigning people to classes we know can be incorrect they then would have to change?

AVincentInSpace, (edited )

what. is. your. alternative.

I swear you must not be reading my comments. How do you refer to a child for the first five years of their life if giving them a name, even a temporary one, is transphobic?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

what. is. your. alternative.

Not shoving people into boxes we know aren't accurate based on a 2 second glance at baby genitals.

Why is that even a thing you want to do?

AVincentInSpace,

How do you refer to a child for the first five years of their life if giving them a name, even a temporary one, is transphobic?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I notice first off you're conveniently ignoring how I have been referring to sex designations for the past several posts and instead exclusively focusing on my earlier statement about names.

Makes me doubt your faith, that.

I will broaden and ask why you think any imposition of a gender on a person who has not yet informed you what it is is laudable or appropriate, be that marker on a certificate or a gendered name?

AVincentInSpace,

BECAUSE YOU STILL HAVE NOT STATED AN ALTERNATIVE!

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

HAVE NOT STATED AN ALTERNATIVE!

not doing that, Jesus.

AVincentInSpace, (edited )

You: “The fact that society does this is a problem!”

Me: “Okay. What do you think we should do instead?”

You: “I refuse to answer this question”

Are you trolling?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

“Okay. What do you think we should do instead?”

Stop doing that. Christ on a cracker.

If I told you "kicking puppies is wrong" would you demand 'an alternative' to do instead?
Don't kick puppies.

AVincentInSpace,

Suppose you want your child to come inside and they haven’t chosen their own name yet. What do you do?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

What do you do?

Concede being trans is sinful?

Oh wait no, that's what you do.

AVincentInSpace,

Sweet fucking Lord. I already explained why I did that. I don’t believe it is, for the record, and you shouldn’t care what conservatives think is sinful either. Now stop digging through my post history for ad hominem attacks and state your fucking position.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

state your fucking position.

I already did, and I don't feel you are arguing in good enough faith—having been willing to concede being trans "is sinful"—to address you in any deeper detail.

You jump on the name thing rather than seeing it as an outcrop of assigning sex and gender and then bitch about it in other threads using disingenuous descriptions that conflate the two but only address the later.

stsquad,

You’re reading a lot between the lines there. I would be concerned if I had a child with special needs whom I had discussed a plan with the school but they had just done something else anyway. Are you saying parents shouldn’t be involved with discussions about their childs care? We can’t know all the details here and jumping to conclusions about the parents motivation seems premature here.

porous_grey_matter,

re you saying parents shouldn’t be involved with discussions about their childs care?

I’m not op but absolutely yeah if the kid doesn’t involve their parents it’s for a good reason. They’re not reading very much between the lines, when kids are “estranged” from their parents it’s always the parents’ fault - and even if this particular case was the 0.0001% of times where it wasn’t, that wouldn’t impact what was the right thing for teachers etc to do.

stsquad,

You might think differently if the estrangement had been driven by the teachers. The article isn’t clear on the timeline. I guess it’s for the courts to rule on now.

porous_grey_matter,

I think it’s pretty ridiculous to think that that is remotely likely. Teachers can’t just convince a kid to cut off their parents when there aren’t already extremely serious issues in the home, it’s not realistic.

stsquad,

You’re right of course they’re have never been any cases of teachers taking advantage of their position of trust over vulnerable pupils. It’s always a failing of the parents. /s

porous_grey_matter,

Ok, show me an example of teachers convincing kids to abandon their family then, since you seen to think there are so many

stsquad,

I mean just googling “teachers who have eloped with students UK” will give you a depressingly long list of examples.

xkforce,

It is your job to support your claims not everyone else’s.

stsquad,

Fine:

metro.co.uk/2023/11/26/…/amp/

dailymail.co.uk/…/RE-teacher-50-struck-leaving-wi…

mirror.co.uk/…/re-teacher-49-marries-ex-24590117.…

From the search page. But for a wider view of the times teachers have exerted undue influence over children in their care: theguardian.com/…/teachers-accused-relationship-p… mentions 1000 teachers have been accused of undue influence over a five year period.

I’m not saying the teachers in this case had any undue intentions (the court will be in a far better place to assess the facts than random internet commentators). However it should be clear that teachers can influence children to do something against the wishes of their parents, unless you posit in all these cases it was still somehow the parents fault.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Don't conflate being a supportive and trusted adult as a child navigates their identity with sexual abuse you piece of shit.

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