Dont you think it is horrible how people put their political ideologies / viewpoints over human lives

Something that i find prettyd disgusting these days is how certain people put their political ideologies / viewpoints over human lives, for example, celebrating the russian invasion of ukraine because it is “a blow against US / NATO imperialism” completely ignoring all the warcrimes, the deaths, and the suffering generated by that war, the same happening with the palestinian genocide because “Israel is the only working democracy on the middle east”, acting like their ideoligies are going to bring back to life all the dead people somehow

VivianVaguely,

People have this problem where they subscribe to Us versus Them thinking. They dehumanize certain groups of people and see them as something less than human, and therefore they don’t care if they are harmed. Militaries all over the globe do this to train their armies to kill without discrimination.

We see it in the USA all the time with the two party political system. I think if the extremist liberals and extremist conservatives had to share a room, it would turn into a blood bath before any common ground could be found. It’s disappointing and disturbing to me that people can’t seem to act in a civil manner. People get tunnel vision and lose sight of the fact that we all have to share this planet and we have to compromise on a lot of things. Seems like most people don’t want to compromise anymore, they want to destroy the opposing side instead and rule the world. That’s so delusional I can’t even…

JustZ,

Protecting democracy in the middle east, bud, might save 30,000,000 lives at the expense of 30,000. You mistake that people defending Israel’s offensive don’t care about human life, we can just see what is at stake for the region, and I think 30,000,000 is a conservative estimate…

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe killing you would save 100,000,000 lives in the future. Does that make it acceptable then?

idunnololz,
@idunnololz@lemmy.world avatar

This is a very grey topic for me. We can use the Russian invasion as an example since you brought it up. You can argue that more lives would have been saved had Ukraine just rolled over and surrendered immediately. But you can also argue their quality of life would be worse. But how do you compare that to resisting and fighting a war? How many lives would you trade for how big of an improvement in quality of life?

Btw I’m for Ukraine resisting, and I support them 100%. I’m just giving an example why it might not be always best to compare in human lives. Or at least, it’s really complicated.

suction,

Nice try equating those two conflicts, but it won’t work.

okamiueru,

Is this “General”, or “General in the US”? I’m not saying it cannot be the latter, but if it is. I’m out. Best mentalt health choice I’ve done is reduce exposure to American “problems”.

ElectroVagrant, (edited )

It is meant to be General in a global/world sense, not strictly US. It simply happens that many of the people posting and commenting seem to be from the US, going off their posts and comments.

I’d encourage people from anywhere to post here if they’d like, as that would help mitigate the US-centric vibes.

callouscomic,

I was at a skating rink this weekend. It was full of families bringing their kids so their kids could have fun. Even some kids birthday parties.

Oh, and the dad wearing an anti-Biden shirt. While hanging out and skating with his kid.

Priorities.

bigFab, (edited )

Being anti-Biden is literally giving priority to human lives. If palestinian lives matter, I mean.

Edit: if palestinian, afghan, yemeni, russian and ukrainian lives matter.

AdolfSchmitler,

Yeah we gotta get Trump into office, he’ll be MUCH better prioritizing human lives

bigFab,

Didn’t say that. I think u americans are fucked up anyways.

Flax_vert,

Really owned the libs xd

aidan,

I mean, did wearing the shirt stop him from doing that?

callouscomic,

I think you’re missing the point that it doesn’t really fit the environment he was in. It says a lot about how much free rent a politician seems to have in his head, when he’s likely never met said politician, likely has nothing directly to do with said politician, and was also displaying it in an area where I’m fairly sure the majority already agree with him (knowing this region).

It’s just a weird topic to flex in THAT specific environment.

aidan,

Meh, I interpret it as someone buying a shirt, then just wearing it randomly whenever they grab it from their drawer

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

What a loser

phillaholic,

Yea, and I extend that to all Politics. I don’t want to see anti-Trump shirts, I don’t really want to see pro Trump or pro Biden. Politicians aren’t sports teams. Save it for rallies, and what not. Just tired of seeing it.

callouscomic,

Yeah agreed. It’s so weird to make politics or politicians part of your identity like this and extend it to totally hnrelated situstions by wearing a message. I already barely understand when people do it for sports as if they personally have any connection to the team.

phillaholic,

People do it for the community. The right wing has done it because they’ve been more or less pushed out of normal culture because of how awful they’ve become. Same reason conspiracy theorists stick together. At least with sports there’s a winner and loser and it mostly can’t be disputed or ignored.

The don’t talk about politics and religion at dinner thing is very true. No one wants to leave their house and be miserable.

Flax_vert,

I know, and it’s disgusting. People also do it by prioritising finance / career options etc over the lives of unborn babies for the sake of “bodily autonomy”

eatthecake,

Without bodily autonomy you are a slave.

gapbetweenus,

If they are unborn they are not alive.

Flax_vert,

That’s just flat out incorrect. There’s barely any difference between a baby that is in a body and out of it

gapbetweenus,

Born - come into existence as a result of birth. So check mate fundamentalist. Not born, not existent. But sure if you want to argue on a more sane level - than how the fuck is a blastula the same as a whole developed human?

Flax_vert,

You are also existing in the womb… You don’t just magically pop out of thin air 💀

A one month old baby isn’t a whole developed human either. Doesn’t mean we should kill it. I don’t understand why we are drawing a line at all on when it’s okay to kill somebody. It’s never okay.

peter,
@peter@feddit.uk avatar

But at what point does it actually become a baby and not just a collection of cells? Is an unfertilised egg a baby? Is it a baby as soon as sperm touches it?

Flax_vert,

Once the embryo properly attached itself

peter,
@peter@feddit.uk avatar

Why then?

Flax_vert,

At that point it won’t be discarded by nature under normal circumstances

peter,
@peter@feddit.uk avatar

But it isn’t able to sustain itsself outside of the body, so why is it alive on its own?

Flax_vert,

Neither can newborn babies

peter,
@peter@feddit.uk avatar

Yes they can, and regularly do? Obviously they can’t feed themselves but I think you know the difference between that and not being viable to live

PsychedSy,

Why that line? We’ve sorted out when a living human is a vegetable, why not use similar standards for fetuses?

gapbetweenus,

It’s never okay.

Definitely ok when someone is trying to kill you. But the whole point is that the concept of killing does not really applies well to a blastula to beginn with.

Flax_vert,

I think abortion is fine if the mother might die from giving birth.

gapbetweenus,

So now it’s somehow ok and necessary to draw a line. So you draw the line when the life of mother is in danger - so you are just as pro baby murder as everyone else, how the tables have turned.

Flax_vert,

If the mother’s life is in danger than both her and the baby would die? But this situation is extraordinarily rare.

gapbetweenus,

That does not really change that you, like everyone else draw somewhere a line where it is ok to kill. Also you chose a point from where on you differentiate between just cells and a human being. It just happens that you chose implantation as this threshold, while at the same time you use things like heartbeat, pain and human appearance as your measures. And that does not add up.

Flax_vert,

But if the foetus would die anyway, why would it be wrong to spare the mother’s life? I think overall we shouldn’t interfere with the process once fertilisation has happened.

gapbetweenus,

why would it be wrong to spare the mother’s life?

Why do you ask me? I personally believe that abortion is such unique, intimate and personal decisions that society does not have a right to interfere with and should be decided by the mother with help of medical and psychological professionals (if needed). You are the one who said that killing is always wrong and we don’t even need to draw any line when it would be ok.

I think overall we shouldn’t interfere with the process once fertilisation has happened.

You are free to do so if you happen to get pregnant one day.

andxz,

As opposed to other people telling you what you can and cannot do with your own body?

Do you not see the implications of that?

Flax_vert,

But it isn’t your body though. And intentionally causing a miscarriage isn’t a normal function of your body.

callouscomic,

And jailing people for unintentional miscarriages also isn’t a normal functioning society.

Flax_vert,

Exactly.

gapbetweenus,

Don’t live inside other peoples bodies and you are safe.

Flax_vert,

And the people in Gaza should simply stop living in Gaza.

gapbetweenus,

I see, you have difficulties differentiating things. I help you my friend: a human body is not a country. You are welcome.

Flax_vert,

And a factory is not a country either, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have safety standards or worker’s rights

gapbetweenus,

Not sure how that is related to anything, but religious people come up with the funniest explanations - so entertain me.

Flax_vert,

?

gapbetweenus,

I fail to see the connection between your last statement and the rest of our conversation.

Flax_vert,

Saying someone deserves to die for being in a place that they cannot help being in is a very dangerous thing to say.

gapbetweenus,

Sure, and I haven’t said that. My body is just not a place or at least fundamentally different from any kind of other places that exist out there. Also I like how you conveniently don’t bother answering, if for you a blastula is the same thing as a fully developed human.

Flax_vert,

They’re both humans

gapbetweenus,

Where do you draw the line? What is not human to you, an egg? A sperm? Every single cell in your organism?

That’s besides that you are dodging the question, since everyone with eyes can tell that a blastula is not the same as a fully developed human. It’s a stage in human development.

Flax_vert,

In nature, eggs and sperm are regularly discarded, sperm exists in it’s millions. It’s not the same thing as a full human. I may not have a definitive answer for when the development becomes a human, but it’s certainly not the moment it leaves it’s mother’s womb.

Also, born babies aren’t fully developed humans either. It’s not really possible to view humanity as a binary thing.

gapbetweenus,

So you recognize that humans have a developmental process. You agree that sperm and egg are not a human. So somewhere in between there must be a line or we at least can come up with some criteria to define a line. So why are you against abortions, since you seem to not think that a blastula is indeed the same as a child?

Flax_vert,

I don’t think the line is birth. We can quite clearly see with technology that a child does indeed exist within the womb.

gapbetweenus,

So where is the line, since you were talking about abortion in general.

andxz,

Your argument is that my body isn’t mine?

You’re so wrong it’s not even funny. Maybe try living without resorting to advice from a book sloppily written (and rewritten) ages ago to dominate people afraid of shit they don’t understand?

Then again, logic is clearly not your strong suit.

Flax_vert,

A foetus isn’t part of your body. It’s a separate being with it’s own blood type and DNA and can also feel pain. Just because it is in you doesn’t mean it is you.

Also, I’m sorry, but I’m really confused to what you’re saying? Is that a critique of modern medicine or something??? Like of course medical textbooks (what I assume you were referring to, unless there was a specific one) have been rewritten, we’re actively researching how to combat different diseases and prevent fatalities. Are you trying to promote homeopathy or something?

gapbetweenus,

A foetus isn’t part of your body.

If it’s not part of my body, I can just remove it and it will just survive on it’s own, it has blood type and DNA so should be ok.

Flax_vert,

If you abandon a born child on it’s own, it wouldn’t survive very long either.

gapbetweenus,

So is a blastula also a child? You don’t see the difference between the ability of a foetus to survive outside it’s mother and that of a born child?

Flax_vert,

I do not see it’s inability to survive as an excuse or justification to kill it

gapbetweenus,

So again we arrive at the same question, where and why do you draw the line?

andxz,

While it’s fun watching you trying to weasel your way out of the discussion at hand your comments in other threads betrayed your thoughts on the matter already. You know full well which fucking book I’m talking about, and it isn’t compatible with modern medical texts in the least.

If you want to believe in bullshit you’re free to do so, but why the fuck do you think anyone would be the least bit interested in what your imaginary friend thinks about abortion?

Flax_vert,

Who is using the Bible as a medical textbook, and at what point did I mention the Bible in regards to abortion? It’s completely irrelevant to this discussion.

andxz,

Your whole stance on abortion is guided by your beliefs, you’ve made that much glaringly obvious. There’s not a single other reason for anyone to be against other people’s abortions like you are. Each and everyone is responsible for their own decisions, you don’t get to involve yourself.

It’s utter insanity, yet you spout it like it’s some sort of inherent truth. That’s what zealots do, not normal people.

Flax_vert,

So “killing people is wrong” is an inherently Christian belief, which atheists don’t possess?

andxz,

Because christianity has such a stellar track record when it comes to murder, right?

Either way, you’re the only one who considers it murder, and not only that, you seem to think your personal religion should be the sole decider in where the line is drawn. Even for people who don’t want to have anything to do with any of that shit.

Who made you the arbiter of justice? God?

Flax_vert,

I’m the only one? sure.

And as I said, I don’t think that’s where the line should be drawn for religious reasons.

andxz,

So if not for religious reasons all you have left is your opinion, which makes it even worse.

Once more; why do you believe that you have any say about other people’s reproductive systems, let alone their private lives?

Do you realize just how delusional you sound?

Flax_vert,

Because I think letting people kill other people is bad

andxz,

You’re still arguing that your opinion of abortion is the absolute truth. It isn’t.

Only the truly delusional think that their opinion matters at all when it comes to other people’s lives.

Flax_vert,

🤨

gapbetweenus,

We already figured out that you are ok with killing people under specific circumstances. Try at least to pretend to be consistent.

phillaholic,

If you’re going to force a woman to birth a child, you better be willing to pay up to help support that child. Pro-Life shouldn’t stop at birth. All too often I see people advocating against abortion, but refuse to promote real sex education, birth control, or government assistance that would support that life and eliminate more abortions entirely.

If your goal is lowering the number of abortions, we can all agree on some simple measures for that desired result. Otherwise it just comes off as wanting to control women.

Flax_vert,

Based. We should make childcare free for a start. A lot of abortions appear to be done due to financial reasons. Sex ed should be a no-brainer.

KISSmyOS,

I put human lives over political ideologies, and I’m pretty alone with that.
I’m a pacifist to the point that I’m opposed to the concept of “self defense” on a national level.
If someone tries to kill you, by all means defend yourself.
But this concept doesn’t translate to groups of millions of people, killing each other for years over who’s in charge.

chetradley,

Interesting. What do you think Ukraine should do then if not fight back against the Russian invasion?

KISSmyOS,

What India did against the British – sabotage all Russian-led businesses in Ukraine, and refuse to cooperate with the occupiers.
It would lead to a great deal of suffering for Ukrainians, but the alternative against which this would have to be measured is the current war – with close to one million dead, several million displaced, and no resolution in sight anywhere.

FooBarrington,

What will stop Russia from doing the same to more countries?

KISSmyOS,

The same thing that lead to the decolonization of almost all countries that were once occupied - it’s neither possible nor profitable to rule over a populace that hates you and doesn’t identify themselves as subjects to your rule in the long term.

GrayBackgroundMusic,

it’s neither possible nor profitable to rule over a populace that hates you and doesn’t identify themselves as subjects to your rule in the long term.

Slavery in the USA South disagrees with that. It was very possible and profitable. It would have continued but armed conflict ended that.

jobby,

And next up on the Disney Channel: The fall of the bad man because teh peepo don’t like him.

FooBarrington,

Ah, so we should just let them attack countries until the internal problems get too big and the empire falls from within? And those countries should just suck it up in the meantime?

KISSmyOS,

Look, I have no good solution for this. No one has, the currently accepted solution is killing millions until the problem disappears behind the problems caused by the war.
I’m not telling anyone or any country what to do. I’m just saying, I won’t ever support or participate in any war, defensive or otherwise.

FooBarrington,

Look, I have no good solution for this. No one has, the currently accepted solution is killing millions until the problem disappears behind the problems caused by the war.

No, the currently accepted solution is defending yourself against an invading force. Ukraine isn’t killing people to solve the problem, they are killing them to stop themselves from being killed.

And what if your solution doesn’t work? What if Russia just expands and the current regime stays in power? You’ll take away the sovereignty of possibly generations of people, and continually condemning more and more to the same fate, until maybe things collapse. And even then you have no guarantee that whatever comes after the collapse is, in any way, better.

There’s a quote on this topic that puts this into words better than I can:

You think you’re better than everyone else, but there you stand: the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs and your rigid pacifism crumbles into bloodstained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.

Maalus,

So you admit your position doesn’t solve anything.

KISSmyOS,

Name one example from the past 110 years where war actually achieved the goal the “good guys” had before it started.

jobby,

The Western intervention in Kosovo.

aidan, (edited )

World War 2 is the most recent I can think of

Edit: Desert Storm

theangryseal,

Hitler would have been perfectly fine erasing people and cultures from existence too. I mean, the Jews weren’t the only people who were going in the camps to die. Once he was finished there, nothing would have stopped him from erasing the next group of people from the planet.

I would imagine that some of the very people who ran the camps were next in line even.

KISSmyOS, (edited )

World War 2 didn’t prevent the eradication of the Jews in Europe, though.
Only a few thousand who didn’t manage to flee survived.
It also didn’t prevent the destruction of an entire generation of men in the Soviet Union.
It didn’t bring about lasting peace, nor democracy. At its end, the next dictatorship was already on the rise.
Oh, and it killed 85 million people, 3% of the global population.

Any alternative result of non-intervention would have to be really fucking awful to be worse than that.

Desert Storm

So the goal of the coalition was that Kuwait is ruled by a dictator the US liked instead of one they didn’t like, the Kurds were massacred and millions of them displaced, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait and a budding popular freedom movement in Iraq crushed by Saddam Hussein?

aidan,

The goal of World War 2 was to expel an invading army from occupied countries. The goal of Desert Storm was the same. Desert Storm didn’t overthrow Saddam, that was years later in the Iraq war

KISSmyOS,

If that was truly the goal, then 85 million people died over which man is in charge, and nothing else.
No, expelling an army is always just a means to reach your goal, cause the army stands between you and control over the people.

aidan,

If that was truly the goal, then 85 million people died over which man is in charge, and nothing else.

I mean yes. What are you saying it was about?

Syndic,

Well Putin for sure would be happy if Ukraine would choose this path. He’s quite used to brutally squash dissidents. Russia also has absolutely no qualm to disperse a group throughout their country to destroy their cultural identity. They are already doing so with the Ukrainian children they’ve kidnapped.

So sorry, but your proposal seems to be really naiv and not taking into account how fucking brutal Putin’s Russia is to people stepping even slightly out of line.

KISSmyOS,

your proposal seems to be really naiv and not taking into account how fucking brutal Putin’s Russia is

Pacifists are always confronted with this criticism. Every time:
“This war is different. This war is justified, cause this attacker is truly evil. We need to stop this evil guy by all means necessary, even if it completely destroys the country we’re trying to defend and kills an entire generation of its inhabitants.”

I’m not naive, at all. I have no illusions about Russia. I just believe there is no option available that will save Ukraine, and war is always the worst option available. No matter how justified it was in the beginning, in the end all that’s left is war.

Gradually_Adjusting,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

Two things can be true:

  1. War is the worst outcome
  2. Fighting evil is the right thing to do

We don’t get to live in a world where doing the right thing is always simple and easy, or even a good option.

mods_are_assholes,

There is no peaceful discussion with fascism, the only language it understands is violence.

Gradually_Adjusting,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

I’ll shut up about it if a fascist movement has ever once been stopped by talk.

mods_are_assholes,

Sure wish we could put you in front of a long line of Ukrainian bereaved so you can tell them their family’s deaths weren’t the act of an evil man.

I wonder how many of them will spit in your face.

Putin ordered a false flag strike that killed russian grandmothers just to propel himself into office. He IS evil and your bullshit both sidesism deserves to be slapped out of your brain.

KISSmyOS,

Your comment has nothing to do with what I wrote.
But yeah, I’d rather have Ukrainians spit in my face than go to war.
I’d rather be killed by Russians than go to war, for that matter.

mods_are_assholes,

It seems you have been so privileged to grow up in a country where mortal violence is not a pressing threat.

There are people in the world that would gladly kill you for your shoes, or for fun, or even for sexual pleasure.

What do you do when one of those people target you or your family?

There is no reasoning with them, there is no reaction except to run or fight.

Pooty poot sent orcs to kill Ukrainian civilians, the elderly, women, children. There are tens of thousands of people who will never see their families again, would any amount of talking or self-sacrifice stop them if they were breaking into your family house?

You have every right to choose to be a pacifist, and I guess there is some degree of self-satisfaction to it, but pacifism will not stop an violent madman if he chooses to target you or someone you love.

KISSmyOS,

What do you do when one of those people target you or your family?

I defend myself and my family, with deadly force if necessary.
But as I said in another comment, war isn’t self defense. It’s defense of the nation, which is something completely different, although nationalists like to pretend it’s the same.

mods_are_assholes,

What exactly do you think would have happened if the Ukrainian army had met the orcs with flowers and soft words?

aidan,

The issue is the popularity of tribalism. A lot of people see an attack on people they “identify” with as an attack on themselves.

Alpha71,

Tell me you 19 years old, without telling me your 19 years old…

KISSmyOS,

I’m old enough to have talked to people who experienced WW1, as an adult.

Alpha71,

You can be 19 and still talk to people who experienced WW1…

KISSmyOS,

If you’re 19 and had a meaningful conversation with people who experienced WW1 as an adult, those people would have to be at least 113 years old and still mentally fit.
In my case it was my grandma who hacked off the hand of a home intruder with a fire axe and threw it in a nearby river cause there was no police you could call in 1918.

Candelestine,

Yeah, I get you. Just remember though, they’re trying to take us back in history.

Some people just see humans, all humans, as just another random member of the animal kingdom. Just clumps of cells doing a thing. These people usually end of believing in power, and nothing else.

You know all those villainous chars from films, books, etc? Those attitudes are not limited to fiction. They’re inspired by our real life history, that’s what we grew up from. Some people want to go back.

eatthecake,

Hello, i am a large clump of cells doing a thing. I don’t only believe in power though and your comment has left me confused.

Candelestine,

It’s complicated.

squid_slime,
@squid_slime@lemmy.world avatar

Politics should put people first, I struggle to understand progression if it isn’t human focused.

frunch,

Oh, it’s focused on humans! Just not in a way that benefits most humans ಠ_ಠ

squid_slime,
@squid_slime@lemmy.world avatar

Too true, its focused on the 1% of humans :3

danc4498,

I think it’s stupid when they say America is just fighting a proxy war. No, Ukraine is fighting for their independence. Like when France was fighting a proxy war against England back in the day, they weren’t considered the bad guys.

MyDogLovesMe,
Toneswirly,

Yeah, tankies are the worst

empireOfLove2,

The people who boil complex geopolitical events down to “haha western imperialism is finally getting challenged, lol shitlib get owned” are immature teenagers arguing in bad faith or on things they don’t understand. That would be what we call a “tankie”.

The same goes for those blindly supporting Israel because “omg hamas is terrorist” or whatever the hell they even justify it with anymore. A lot of those may just be quiet racists or fascists happy to see a dictator like Netanyahu have his way with Western support- obviously never thinking for a second that they themselves have an equal chance of being on the receiving end of such treatment, not the delivering end.

Both of these situations are absolutely horrible. But neither can really be boiled down to simple ideology over human lives as much as the lower-quality people love to do so. People want things to fit how they think so that they can feel good about their thoughts. Many things get shaped in that lens and it gets worse every day. And, unfortunately, the only real solution is just not to interact. Their minds can never be changed once they set up their world view to be self supporting.

Your views mirror mine closely. Ukraine’s war is awful, but it never needed to happen if Putin wasn’t such a trigger-happy, imperialistic dictator. His war is purely for territorial and ideological expansion of control at the expense of human life. Same goes for Palestine, while the operation was framed as being anti-terrorism at first, Netanyahu has gotten completely unhinged and fallen out of line in some crazy drive to control all of Gaza and eliminate Israel’s competition. However, I support Ukraine and do not support Israel, despite these being philosophically contradictory in the terms of “preserving human life over ideologies” since Ukraine is still killing people. The context makes the conscience.

laverabe,

The difference between the two conflicts is that the govt of Russia was the unprovoked aggressor in Ukraine, whereas in Israel, the Gaza govt (Hamas) was the unprovoked aggressor.

Israel has gone too far and the war needs to end but the two conflicts are not identical in every way.

sneezycat,
@sneezycat@sopuli.xyz avatar

Ukraine is killing people to preserve their people’s lives, it’s not contradictory.

Shiggles,

“Killing Russians in self defense is comparable to genociding Palestinians” is the take of a very, very sheltered individual.

tryptaminev,

The people who boil complex geopolitical events down to “haha western imperialism is finally getting challenged,

I mean that is what is factually happening right now. The US can no longer hold its diplomatic and military weight. The US and its allies are unable to prevent the Houthis from succesfull attacks in the Red Sea. On Israels genocide in Palestine the European countries are dividing. Putin is managing to divide the US internally and to have some European countries break away to his side. China doesn’t give a fuck about US sanctions anymore and there is elaborate systems to bypass sanctions. As a result both Russian energy exports are laundered before being sold to the EU and US and western components end up in russian military equipment.

Cheering on the current prospecting alternative is stupid, as it is just another imperialist system.

But it is urgently necessary to realise the changing reality and use the window to create a world order, that puts all imperialists to limits and embraces a rule based international order of equal countries with equal people. Especially the EU could take this opportunity to renounce the remnants of its imperial ways and the subtle and open supremacist believes.

The EU countries made the terrible mistake to consider Trump an anomaly and were all to eager to remain complacent on Bidens presidency. But Trump wasn’t just a pimple you wait to pass. He is the symptom of a deeper instability in the US.

Daft_ish,

The US isn’t the world police. It was dumb that we ever attempted such a stupid position.

kugel7c,

Every political position mostly tries to define in which ways violence is to be used. Realising this and knowing power is already established before you were even born. Seeing violence being used against your oppressor(s) is often times the only thing we feel we can still hope for.

Or from another perspective, is the war in Ukraine worth it for Ukraine or Russia, can you really say a war with so many deaths is preferable to being a russian subject, or an international embarrassment of the Russian state. Is the self determination of Palestinians really worth the terror and the war. We’re the PIRA justified in bombing London for their brother’s and sisters discrimination and deaths in Ireland. It’s ultimately all subjective, wether the violence of the system you fight against is bad enough you can bring yourself to fight.

Nothing brings back anyone but as long as there are people who want to, and do turn us into their machines, we have to rely on our interpretation of that being wrong, and fight them for it.

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