FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

...?

What are "illegals"? I'm fairly certain 'illegal' is an adjective but you and the headline appear appear to be incorrectly using it as a countable noun.

jimbolauski,

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal

illegal 2 of 2 noun sometimes disparaging + offensive : a person who enters or lives in a country without the documentation required for legal entry or residence

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

disparaging + offensive

Ooooo, OP is being a bigot? That's unfortunate. Here I was giving benefit of the doubt.

jimbolauski,

In your rush to win the most outraged contest you missed the word sometimes.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

you missed the word sometimes.

Can you explain how referring to a human being as "an illegal" can ever not be derogatory? 🤔

jimbolauski,

Easy it is a label to describe immigration status, like citizen, permanent resident, temporary nonimigrant workers (migrant),…

Immigrating into a country illegally means that person is guess what an illegal immigrant or illegal for short. Your negative views of the word illegal don’t change their status.

ChokingHazard63,

Nobody’s trying to say they aren’t illegal immigrants. But using derogatory terms is unnecessary and won’t bring a lot of people to your side.

jimbolauski,

Illegals is just shortened illegal immigrant, just like temporary nonimigrant workers are called migrants. The negative connotation is yours.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Illegals is just shortened illegal immigrant, just like temporary nonimigrant workers are called migrants.

They are migrants because they migrate. They aren't "illegals" because irrespective of the status of their presence according to those that claim dominion of the land they are on they are not themselves illegal.

jimbolauski,

They are illegal immigrants or illegal for short per the definition you were given but appear unable to comprehend.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

But they aren't illegal_s_ as that renders the phrase a reference to the people themselves and not their actions.

To refer to people as illegal is dehumanizing.

jimbolauski,

Just because you look down on a group of people doesn’t make the term to describe them dehumanizing.

Just because you can’t differenciate between a term for immigration status and the people with that status doesn’t change what the term means.

wintermute_oregon,

I don’t look down on the group. I look down on their actions. I don’t like criminal behavior.

jimbolauski,

You’re not a liberal so that makes sense.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Just because you look down on a group of people doesn’t make the term to describe them dehumanizing.

Doesn't make it not dehumanizing—since it is—and it certainly doesn't help your arguments it isn't.

jimbolauski,

I can’t change how you feel about a group nor can I change the definition of a word. It’s a shame you only see a person’s immigration status there’s more to an illegal than how they entered the country.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

there’s more to an illegal than how they entered the country.

You're going to have to explain what the word means to me then, because the phrase by itself doesn't even seem to refer to immigration status at all and I don't know what you mean by it.

jimbolauski,

I gave you the definition of illegal here.

lemm.ee/comment/11217295

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I gave you the definition of illegal here.

One that doesn't fit with your later claim that it isn't derogatory so both assertions cannot be true.

The word you used doesn't even mention people so what is it to which you are referring when you use it?

jimbolauski,

One that doesn’t fit with your later claim that it isn’t derogatory so both assertions cannot be true.

There is nothing in the definition that says illegal is a derogatory term. Remember when you forgot about the word sometimes.

The word you used doesn’t even mention people so what is it to which you are referring when you use it?

The first 3 words in the definition of illegal are “a person who”. When I say illegal I’m referring to a person who has entered or resides in the US illegally.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

There is nothing in the definition that says illegal is a derogatory term.

There very much is, even if we limit our definitions to the one which you gave me. I pointed as much out to you 23 hours ago.

When I say illegal I’m referring to a person who has entered or resides in the US illegally.

That isn't what that word means except as a slur which your very precious dictionary even cops to.

You still have not answered my inquest regarding how using an adjective as a noun to refer to a person could be anything other than dehumanizing as you still claim that it can potentially be.

jimbolauski,

That isn’t what that word means except as a slur which your very precious dictionary even cops to.

The definition clearly says sometimes which means you have to use context to determine if it is used as a slur. The term illegal by itself is not a slur.

You still have not answered my inquest regarding how using an adjective as a noun to refer to a person could be anything other than dehumanizing as you still claim that it can potentially be.

Illegal is a noun too, per the definition. Your question is invalid. I know you think you have some big gotcha bit you don’t. Some words have more than one meaning there are so many of those words that a word was created to describe words that are prounounced and often spelled the same way but have different meanings, that word is homonym.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

The definition clearly says sometimes which means you have to use context to determine if it is used as a slur.

I asked you how it could not be and you have yet to offer an explination.

Illegal is a noun too

No it isn't.

jimbolauski,

I asked you how it could not be and you have yet to offer an explination.

When referring to people who entered or reside illegally in the country.

Merriam Webster’s, Cambridge, Collin’s, Oxford, dictionaries all defines it as a noun. I’ll take their word over yours.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

When referring to people who entered or reside illegally in the country.

...you should probably refer to people, huh?

jimbolauski,

People is not discriptive enough, citizens, permanent residents, migrants, and illegals all fall into the people category. Illegal is used to convey the immigration status of a person.

Good for you finally letting go of the notion that illegal is only an adjective.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Good for you finally letting go of the notion that illegal is only an adjective.

as a non-slur which you still have not explained how it can be.

jimbolauski,

Once again go back to the definition. Sometimes disparaging + offensive. Notice there’s no mention of illegal being a slur. Sometimes is used to describe how often something happens it’s between never and always. There are instances where illegal is used in a derogatory fashion and instances where it’s not. You have to use context to figure it out. Context is part of a statement that surrounds a word and determines the word’s meaning.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Sometimes disparaging + offensive.

And since you have yet to explain how it can not be your claim that it is is unsubstantiated.

I am working under the assumption no one here—who purportedly all agree to "be excellent to each other"—is being intentionally despairing to their fellow human beings hense my continued confusion as to what "illegal" used (seemingly erroneously) as a noun means.

jimbolauski,

And since you have yet to explain how it can not be your claim that it is is unsubstantiated.

What claim is unsubstantiated?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

What claim is unsubstantiated?

That there can be a non-derogatory utilization of the adjective illegal to refer to a person with as though the word were a countable noun.

All that has been done is to post a dictionary entry which agrees that when it is used as a noun it is a slur—behavior I would not expect from one who has endeavored excellence toward their fellows.

jimbolauski,

All that has been done is to post a dictionary entry which agrees that when it is used as a noun it is a slur

You are really having a tough time with the word sometimes. When illegal is used as a noun sometimes it is derogatory + offensive.

Do you know what sometimes means?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You have yet to describe the times it is not.

jimbolauski,

If there “were no times it is not”, the definition would not use the word sometimes .

Do you know what sometimes means?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Do you know what sometimes means?

If I said, "The sun sometimes rises in the east." that is a true statement, but not evidence that it ever does otherwise and if I wanted to claim "...and sometimes it rises in the west." I would still need to provide evidence other than stressing the "sometimes" in my first statement.

How can calling a person (and not actions) "illegal" be anything but derogatory?
Explain your west-rising sun, please.

jimbolauski, (edited )

What direction the sun rise is not binary, unlike if a statement is derogatory, the sun can rise in the east, north east, South east, North or south.

If the claim that the sun sometimes rises in east is true than the claim that the sun always rises in the east is false and so is that the claim the sun never rises in the east.

If the claim that illegal is sometimes derogatory is true then the the claim illegal is always derogatory or never derogatory is false.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

If the claim that illegal is sometimes derogatory is true then the the claim illegal is always derogatory or never derogatory is false.

No it isn't. Nothing about "sometimes" being true itself proves the corollary "always" is false.

Besides, you would think you could end this by giving the example to refuse to proffer of a non-derogatory use.

jimbolauski,

No it isn’t. Nothing about “sometimes” being true itself proves the corollary “always” is false.

You’re going to have to provide examples where sometimes means always.

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/…/sometimes

on some occasions but not always or often:

on some occasions but not always or often illegal can be derogatory.

Besides, you would think you could end this by giving the example to refuse to proffer of a non-derogatory use.

There is no way you’ll be honest about the statement. You’ve all ready stated it’s a slur no matter how it’s used.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You’re going to have to provide examples where sometimes means always.

I'm not the one making the claim here, you are.

jimbolauski,

I’m not the one making the claim here, you are.

You keep claiming illegal is always derogatory even though the definition states otherwise.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

The definition does not indicate it can be not derogatory—which makes sense because it's derogatory.

You despite claiming sans evidence that it is possible to refer to a human being with a pejorative adjective and it be anything other than derogatory, won't even back up your claim with a single non-derogatory example of its use.

I get why you won't—'cause you can't—but if you were right you'd think You could give an example rather than litigating the implied corollaries to "sometimes".

jimbolauski,

The definition does not indicate it can be not derogatory—which makes sense because it’s derogatory.

It does that what sometimes means. They would use the word always or possiblly omit it and state illegal is derogatory. They instead use sometimes.

If you can’t be honest about the definition of the word sometimes then why would you be honest about if the statement is derogatory.

Tell you what, if you can show when sometimes indicates something always happens I’ll give an example.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

"Sometimes" is different than "Sometimes although not always"

That I why I had to use different words to type the two different concepts.
Your definition only listed the first, which does not inherently indicate the second.

jimbolauski,

“Sometimes” is different than “Sometimes although not always”

That’s a common mistake to think that but sometimes and not always have the same meaning. Your mistake is so common that there are many articles highlighting this redundancy.

brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/31/sometimes-always/

sometimes always

Expressions like “not always,” “don’t always,” and “aren’t always” overlap in meaning with “sometimes,” but don’t belong in the same phrase with this word—they’re redundant.

“Sometimes I don’t always feel like jogging” doesn’t make any sense. Say either “sometimes I don’t feel like jogging” or “I don’t always feel like jogging.”

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

The link you offered does not seem authoritative.
The example it proffered of:

“Sometimes I don’t always feel like jogging” doesn’t make any sense.

Makes perfect sense.

Are you going to keep litigating "Sometimes inherently means sometimes not" or are you going to provide an example of a non-pejorative use of referring to a human being as though they themself were illegal?

jimbolauski,

The link you offered does not seem authoritative.

I think a PHD in comparative literature is more than authoritative enough.

brians.wsu.edu

The quote was from a series of entries entitled “Common Errors in English Usage”

“Sometimes I don’t always feel like jogging” doesn’t make any sense.

Makes perfect sense.

I’m sure it makes sense to you, there are many people that make that mistake.

Here’s another link. I’m still waiting for any link that shows sometimes can mean always.

beedictionary.com/…/sometimes_not_always_vs_somet…

Expressions like “not always,” “don’t always,” and “aren’t always” overlap in meaning with “sometimes,” but don’t belong in the same phrase with this word—they’re redundant. “Sometimes I don’t always feel like jogging” doesn’t make any sense. Say either “sometimes I don’t feel like jogging” or “I don’t always feel like jogging.”

Here’s another link to help you understand the difference between sometimes and always.

linguodan.com/…/difference-adverbs-frequency-en/

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I'm happy for you ...or sorry that happened.

That's alot of words which notably are not an example of the adjective "illegal" being used as though it were a noun to describe a human being and it not being derogatory.

Come on, bill Clinton. You just gonna yap about what "is" is or you gonna prove your point? Make with the example.

jimbolauski,

Don’t get upset, lots of people have issues understanding how sometimes is used. I have a lot of trouble understanding the nuances of a 2nd language.

Looks like you’ve ran out of excuses, and moved to name calling. I’ve provided definitions of illegal and sometimes. Showing that illegal can be used as a noun and sometimes that the use of illegal as a noun is not derogatory.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Are you still on this? You went in circles so I left.

Still no example, huh?

jimbolauski,

Still no example, huh?

If you have trouble understanding what sometimes means then an example will go way over your head.

You’re welcome to show me where sometimes can mean always.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

No I get it, you can't prove your point. You don't have to keep running around with dictionaries that don't prove your point to impress me. It doesn't change my view of you at all to know you're wrong.

jimbolauski,

I’m sorry you have trouble understanding simple words like sometimes. A dictionary is the only way to educate you on its meaning. Your willfully ignorant view that sometimes can mean always is the crux of the problem.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

If you're not making with the example you insist exist I'm not even gonna read your posts as they're a waste of time.

jimbolauski,

It’s so strange you’ve insisted through this whole thread that sometimes can mean always but you haven’t provided any evidence that it can. I wonder why?

Blamemeta,

They are in fact illegal.

ChokingHazard63,

No person is illegal. Regardless what their immigration status might be.

Blamemeta,

Thats the term for their group, isnt it? Isnt it tiring to type out illegal immigrant every time?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Humans can't be illegal.

Only actions humans take can be illegal.

Blamemeta,

Thats really getting into pedantics, and its just name calling. I swear, yall cared more about the term illegals than the lawsuit

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Thats really getting into pedantics, and its just name calling.

I question if that view of yours extends to all slurs.

Blamemeta,

It doesnt. I remove any uses of the n-word and r-word on sight.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

It doesnt. I remove any uses of the n-word and r-word on sight.

Would you mind explaining your logic for differentiating those names people call people from these ones?

What issues do you take with the alluded to slurs you don't find applicable to this one?

Blamemeta,

Well, those two have much stronger connatations than “illegal”

“Fuck” is worse than “damn” for an example.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Well, those two have much stronger connatations than “illegal”

What is it that makes the one you would censor bad, though?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Easy it is a label to describe immigration status

It isn't being used that way (to describe a status). It is being used to describe a person as "illegal".

A person being documented or not by a group which claims political authority over a geographic area does not make that person illegal.

jimbolauski,

It’s no different than calling a person a citizen. Your inability to understand the definition of illegal does not change its definition.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

It’s no different than calling a person a citizen.

A citizen is a thing a person can be. It's also a noun.
"Illegal" is not a thing a person can be.

Actions can be against laws but humans cannot.

jimbolauski,

Illegal is short for illegal immigrant, many people are illegal immigrants.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Undocumented people may immigrate in a way some people do not consider to be "legal" but they themselves are not illegal therefore "illegals" is a nonsense term.

Blamemeta,

My truck is blue, I call it blue. Is blue a nonsense term?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

My truck is blue, I call it blue. Is blue a nonsense term?

Using an adjective as an adjective is a nonsense argument for asserting "using an adjective as a noun to refer to people is not dehumanizing".

Blamemeta,

No, I call it blue. As in “Lets take blue to the hardware store”

Blamemeta,

Its a little rude but these are illegal immigrants we’re talking about. They dont deserve a lot of respect.

ChokingHazard63,

Criminals deserve basic human rights too or all anything a tyrannical government has to do is define you as “illegal” and they can carry you off never to be seen again. With those rights ought to come at least the minimal respect a human life deserves.

Blamemeta,

Theres a hell of a difference between rude namecalling and not respecting basic human rights.

ChokingHazard63,

And watching anyone use one to chip away at the other is tiring.

Blamemeta,

What basic human rights are you talking about?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Its a little rude but these are illegal immigrants we’re talking about. They dont deserve a lot of respect.

You don't think all humans are worthy of dignity and respect?

Some would consider that terrible of you.

wintermute_oregon,

Not according to the left. Remember when Trump caught Covid and the left wished him death? Or when his brother died and the left cheered?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Not according to the left. Remember when Trump caught Covid and the left wished him death? Or when his brother died and the left cheered?

What relation does your mental conception of what some nebulous "the left" did-or-did-not do have to the discussion we are having here in c/conservative about whether the use of dehumanizing terms to refer to human beings is laudable?

Further, is wishing that someone you perceive as having an immense power and direct negative impact on you and your community would lose that power—even via dying—really comparable to dehumanizing an entire class of people?

wintermute_oregon,

Further, is wishing that someone you perceive as having an immense power and direct negative impact on you and your community would lose that power—even via dying—really comparable to dehumanizing an entire class of people?

Yes. Trump didn’t impact your life in a negative way, especially when compared to illegals.

Either everyone has value or they don’t. Don’t claim higher ground and then say everyone but Trump as it makes you look like a chump.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Yes. Trump didn’t impact your life in a negative way, especially when compared to illegals.

Since you don't know the immigration policies where I am I can't comprehend how you are able to claim that assertion.

Either everyone has value or they don’t. Don’t claim higher ground and then say everyone but Trump as it makes you look like a chump.

Again, kindly point to where I have used dehumanizing language to refer to trump here.
I don't believe I even personally wished his death when I pointed out hypothetical third parties you brought up potentially doing so was not comparable to striping a class of people of personhood through the language used to refer to them.

wintermute_oregon,

Since you don’t know the immigration policies where I am I can’t comprehend how you are able to claim that assertion.

I can. If you’re not a US citizen then Trump policies on immigration didn’t impact you in a negative way.

Again, kindly point to where I have used dehumanizing language to refer to trump here.

I never said you. Keep up. I said the left. I remember watching the horrible comments they make as people die.

So generally speaking the left doesn’t agree with you and illegal is shorthand for illegal immigrant or criminal in most cases.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I can. If you’re not a US citizen then Trump policies on immigration didn’t impact you in a negative way.

You don't think things US presidents do can effect other nations? Further you didn't state "immigration policies" when you said

Trump didn’t impact your life in a negative way

I would argue trump has done me more personal harm by ruining my enjoyment of Home Alone 2 than any undocumented immigrant has done me by being undocumented.

I never said you. Keep up. I said the left.

Ah, but you VERY MUCH did say "you". 👇

Either everyone has value or they don’t. Don’t claim higher ground and then say everyone but Trump as it makes you look like a chump.

Emphasis mine.

That doesn't even address what "the left" ostensibly doing something has to do with what standards someone who seemingly does not hold themself to be a member of that group should hold themself.

wintermute_oregon,

You don’t think things US presidents do can effect other nations? Further you didn’t state “immigration policies” when you said

Sure. That’s why we are a super power. That doesn’t make wishing death acceptable.

I would argue trump has done me more personal harm by ruining my enjoyment of Home Alone 2 than any undocumented immigrant has done me by being undocumented.

You just figured out he was in it recently ?

Ah, but you VERY MUCH did say “you”

Are you a conservative? Or are you on the left ?

That doesn’t even address what “the left” ostensibly doing something has to do with what standards someone who seemingly does not hold themself to be a member of that group should hold themself.

It rhymed. Anyways, what group are you part of?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

That doesn’t make wishing death acceptable.

Some would argue it makes it more acceptable, prayers to Santa Muerte being the only way they have of effecting a person they can't vote out who has power over their life.

You just figured out he was in it recently ?

What makes you think the harm is recent?

Are you a conservative? Or are you on the left ?

Are you asking me to engage in identity politics? 🤨

wintermute_oregon,

Are you asking me to engage in identity politic

Not at all but you use the language of the left and the logic of the left.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Not at all but you use the language of the left and the logic of the left.

English? Puedo cambiar a un idioma diferente si lo deseas.

Або ваша проблема в тому, що я використовував латинський алфавіт?
如果你想让我们更“右”一点,我可以尝试一下普通话。

wintermute_oregon,

Words like no humans are illegal and all people matter except the ones like Trump.

It’s an illogical shit show.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Words like no humans are illegal and all people matter except the ones like Trump.

I don't think I said those words. I asked someone if they disagreed all people were worthy of dignity and respect (they seemed to) and explained why some might find wishing for the death of someone who has power over them acceptable.

"No person is illegal." is a quote from ChokingHazard63, not from me.

I would question on what you base the antithesis you are seemingly arguing that people (and not actions) can be illegal.

wintermute_oregon,

I’m fine with the term illegal and I belief all people have value. I’m not a lefty who only thinks some people have value.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I’m fine with the term illegal and I belief all people have value. I’m not a lefty who only thinks some people have value.

I didn't ask you that. I asked you (since you seem to agree to speak English) how you squared an adjective being used as a noun.

I further ask why you keep bringing up "lefties" (are they in the room with you right now?) and if you really believe the dehumanizing language you're defending embodies "Being excellent to eachother" as the sidebar of this place purports its ethos to be.

Do undocumented persons not have value?

wintermute_oregon,

Do undocumented persons not have value?

Illegals have value and should be deported as quickly as possible.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Illegals

Again, I'm not sure what that means?

You said upstream all people have value so I can't imagine that's a dehumanizing reference to people.

jimbolauski,

Your inability to comprehend a simple definition that you have been given is yours alone. Your warped views do not change the definition.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Your warped views do not change the definition.

That it's a slur? If you want to admit you're slurring human we can be done here, but all of you fine people here have stringently maintained that is not what you are doing and I so wish to believe you.

jimbolauski,

Just because you look down on illegals and think the term is a slur does not mean anyone else does. Your feelings don’t change the definition.

wintermute_oregon,

He finds the term dehumanizing. I do not. It defines they are illegals here. They have no right to be here to be abused and used as pawn by the democrats.

I have no issue with illegals. I have an issue with the democrats wanting a new group of slave labor.

The democrats are still mad we took their slaves away

muntedcrocodile,

Did Buren not make a bill with the strong AF border reform that got shot down by mike cos it was packaged with Ukraine aid and he didn’t want that to be voted on.

Blamemeta,

Yeah, that’s how a lot of bills get killed. They get packaged with other stuff in the hopes that something that wouldn’t normal get passed, gets passed anyway.

Anticorp,

I would like to see legislation that makes it illegal to package unrelated legislation. So much fuckery happens because of it. But the legislation to block packaged legislation would probably be packaged with other undesirable legislation.

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