XbSuper,

It’s not causing inflation, but it is increasing the cost of a product I have no choice but to buy. And does absolutely nothing to help the environment. I really hate Trudeau, and even more, I hate that I voted for him.

labsin, (edited )

Why wouldn’t it help the environment? The only way producers can pollute less is if it would cost less money. It will and can only happen if it pays to produce less co2

XbSuper,

So put the cost to the companies, not me. I’m stretched thin as is, I don’t have more money for another stupid tax. Maybe if I had a little extra, I’d consider installing a few solar panels in my home, or perhaps a new EV. But no, instead the government will find a way to reach into my pocket to take what’s left.

agarorn,

… So do you think if the companies would need to pay the tax, they wouldn’t just transfer the cost onto you? What would this solution make better?

XbSuper,

Maybe, I’m honestly not sure what the right answer is, just that this does nothing but hurt Canadians already struggling. It won’t slow the use of gasoline in the slightest.

But really, I never expect anything to be done for the people. Aside from a select lucky few, the world is set against us from the day we’re born.

awwwyissss,

Exactly. Offer a better option or accept reality. We’re all in this together, how about we don’t shit the bed.

If you want to blame someone, look at the biggest polluters… wealthy people with extravagant luxury making decisions for their bottom line that hurt the rest of us.

labsin,

Yes it will probably also mean buying less, smaller housing and less private cars. But it would also make alternatives viable that just can’t exist right now and make less polluting solutions cheaper cause of scale (like what now happens with solar panels) and they wouldn’t even need much subsidies to get them off the ground.

That it will hurt is also why I think it will never happen cause any government that takes big steps will not be in office for 4 years. It can also only happen with:

  • Higher minimum wage
  • Adorable and risk free loans for energy reduction
  • Social adjustments as the lowest wages are the most impacted (can be paid for with the taxes)
franklin,
@franklin@lemmy.world avatar

Your premise is flawed the only reason it falls under the principles of inelastic demand is because of the way our country is structured for cars, if you use the tax to make systemic changes, making public transit and walking/biking possible this is no longer true.

I’m not saying it’s an easy transition but it is a necessary one and Norway and Denmark proves it’s possible

Grant_M,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

Unfortunately, for way too many Canadians, believing fairy tales from PP and the Cons is more convenient than reality.

cashews_best_nut,

Canada needs more beavers

Touching_Grass,

What I like is that we all knew that the first financial difficult time this issue would come up and be blamed but we didn’t really future proof for it. We just let it happen every time and hope it gets sorted out

dangblingus,

Why, during any debate about the carbon tax, does no one ever demand accountability from the corpos and oversight from the Feds?

Why is it legal for corpos to arbitrarily raise prices to offset THEIR tax? Why do we waste time calculating individual tax refunds that include climate tax rebates when it should be a tax paid by the corpo to the government as the cost of doing business?

SapientLasagna,

It’s supposed to be reflected in the price to the consumer. That’s what’s supposed to cause the consumers to make less carbon-intensive choices.

For goods or services that don’t actually have any fossil carbon used, there probably should be a mechanism to call them out for misinformation.

dangblingus,

Im all for charging more taxes on high emissions goods, but allowing it to be a fuck you to the consumer that has to engage with capitalism and not the corpos who dont have to offer high emissions goods, kind of blurs the whole “Earth is dying” conundrum we’re in.

Right, its my fault for buying gas for my car that I need to go to work to keep society functioning. Its not the gas companies fault or the car manufacturers fault. Its totally my bad for wanting a livable wage the only way you can get one.

joshhsoj1902,

And in your case you’re likely breaking even or getting a little back from the carbon pricing system.

You as the consumer isn’t been told fuck you. You’re being slightly incentivised to make better choices, and rewarded if you do, but not penalized if you don’t.

blindsight,

I think you’re missing that you (likely) get more money back than you pay in. It’s a restriction, not a tax. It’s only the most egregiously inefficient drivers/home owners who are paying more.

As someone commuting in a reasonable car driving a reasonable distance in a reasonably efficient home, you have more money in your pocket every month. And if any of those aren’t the case, then maybe it’s time to make some changes (which is the whole point!)

Touching_Grass, (edited )

Right but now the car company had a massive incentive to build more efficient vehicles. The tax also isn’t for the consumer necessarily is it?.

What you will pay is nothing compared to companies running factories and shipping between stores.

If you haven’t looked into it, our logistics system is all kinds of fucked up. In some cases shipping parts across the ocean to get assembled and shipped back for more assembling before being shipped back again. All because carbon based energy usage has been dirt cheap for too long.

Its cheapness places externalities on society that we all pay anyways. Carbon taxes is a way to recoup the costs. Its a cost that had we known about these externalities then it would have been built in from the start. It’s multifaceted and encouraged by many as a good solution

yardy_sardley,

I’d argue that it is for the consumers, as those are the people getting the rebate. It incentivizes a shift in consumer behavior that is meant to take revenue away from the fossil fuel industry and redirect it towards green alternatives. I agree, it’s a good policy, and one of the only ways we have of gracefully moving away from fossil fuels.

As long as you can avoid having people completely miss the point of the tax and being misled by politicians for their own personal gain, that is.

Basilisk,

If that’s the case, then the whole process is as wrong-headed as can be. You can only choose an alternative if a viable alternative exists. Transit isn’t supported enough to be a universally practical option while electric vehicles are too expensive and have infrastructure requirements that can’t necessarily be met by everyone. And speaking as someone who’s tried cycling, well, Edmonton is making some big moves, but In Calgary? Maybe I’ll give it a shot again when I get tired of living.

And none of that covers the fact that what is being paid at the pump as a surcharge to cover carbon taxes holds no relationship at all with what the oil companies are paying. It’s being used as an excuse to bilk the consumer even further and to line the pockets of investors.

Touching_Grass,

You tax what you want less of. Its pretty simple.

Grabthar,

I think the idea is that you will not necessarily choose near zero carbon alternatives such as cycling to work or buying an electric car. Those simply won’t work for most for a variety of reasons. But by bumping the price of gas, it makes people who can’t or won’t choose an alternative very aware of the cost of going anywhere, and causes many to drive more sparingly by carpooling, waiting until they have multiple reasons for trips or choosing not to go out every weekend. For those with deep pockets it is probably little more than an annoyance that won’t change their behaviour, but increasing fuel prices works very well to curb overall demand.

systemglitch,

Ahh, a poor people’s tax then. Nice.

joshhsoj1902,

It’s actually the opposite.

While yes it looks like things are more expensive, it’s still effectively a wealth transfer where the poorest get more money back from the system.

It’s sorta genius in that way, poorer folk are still rewarded for picking the less polluting option, but in the end don’t actually end up payijg more after the quarterly rebate

Pyr_Pressure,

That’s why the rebate.

People below a certain income and have less options get that tax money spent back.

Those who are wealthier and can afford other options like Electric vehicles and heat pumps don’t get the money back. That money goes ideally towards developing green infrastructure like charging stations (no idea if they actually do, but that’s the idea)

joshhsoj1902,

It’s not wrong headed at all. There is always an alternative.

In some cases that alternative is transit. In some cases that alternative is cycling. In some cases that alternative is carpooling. In some cases that alternative is driving an existing car more efficiently. In some cases that alternative is choosing to buy a ICE smaller car. In some cases that alternative is buying a BEV.

In all those cases, even a small step will reward someone for making that choise.

blindsight,

80% of Canadians get more back than they pay. It’s not a tax, it’s a redistribution.

On the margin, it adds small incentives to shift consumer behaviour. Lots of people in warmer climates in Canada are shifting to e-bikes, for instance, and heat pumps are becoming increasingly common.

Sure, some Canadians are paying more than they get in rebates… like my old neighbour who commutes to work in an F-350, but that’s the point. He shouldn’t be driving to an office job in an industrial truck!

CanadaPlus, (edited )

Believe it or not, pulling money out of circulation and putting it promptly back in doesn’t effect the total supply!

It’s a canard for doing less about climate change without saying that outright, since their base demands the former and the broader public demands the latter. Plus, they get to talk about less taxes, which makes their other natural demographic happy.

Shake747,

Well no shit, but it’s still crippling the cash flow of citizens, on top of their money being worthless.

And before we go all “but the majority of people get more money back than they put in!”

I’ve never received a fucking dime back, and I’m in a very median tax bracket. Why do I need to jump through more hoops every year to get my money back? The extra cash flow is more beneficial than stock pilling my money with the government, and waiting for their slow ass to give it back

Just feels like virtue signalling bullshit.

CanadaPlus,

I’ve never received a fucking dime back, and I’m in a very median tax bracket.

Are you sure? They send it out quarterly. I’m guessing you just didn’t notice on your end.

The rebate is a small amount, because they only take a small amount.

Shake747,

Very sure. Guess I’ll get on the phone and start having weeks worth of back and forth with our very competent and efficient CRA to see if back pay is an option

saigot,

If you go on Canada.ca you can see all the history of the payments as well as how those payments were delivered and if there was some sort of problem, that’s probably the best place to start.

Kecessa,

Quebec and BC doesn’t get it because the federal tax doesn’t apply, just in case you live in one of those two provinces.

Shake747,

I’m not in those provinces

Kecessa,

Then check your account on the government’s website because you’re supposed to get a financial compensation that’s high enough that you can drive 15k km and heat using oil and still come up ahead.

Complaining that you don’t get it and blaming the government and pretending it’s fake (I checked your history, it’s at least the second time you complain about that) instead of trying to find out if/why you don’t get it, that’s on you buddy and you sure look like the kind of guy that’s all about people’s own responsibilities (again, from your history).

Shake747,

15km? Heat with oil? What small city in Nova Scotia do you live in?

Why is it my fault that the government imposed a tax, and then said “don’t worry, we’ll give it back!” and then didn’t?

My main complaint here is that I constantly have to jump through ridiculous hoops with the government to get money that I’d already earned, but they just take it freely

Kecessa,

15k km

15 000km

I’m sure you have yet to check if you actually don’t receive it, you probably do and don’t realize it.

Or it’s simply that you’re not eligible because you’re under 19 or don’t fill your taxes 🤔

Shake747,

I 100% went back and checked, after I was told it’s “very small” and probably wouldn’t notice it.

I appreciate you trying to help out though, thank you. You’re the most competent CRA employee I’ve ever spoken to

CanadaPlus,

I don’t know what province you’re in, but some of them have their own program.

You wouldn’t be the first person who’s sure they’re not getting them, because they come as a direct deposit and slip under the radar.

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